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CX To Fly London - New York  
User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5279 posts, RR: 7
Posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 13296 times:

http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/031127/0409000485_1.html

The British and Hong Kong governemnts have come to agreement allowing CX to fly 1 daily service between New York and London.
In return Virgin Atlantic will be allowed to fly Hong Kong -Sydney

This is good news, but I don't think the likes of SQ, BD, CO, DL etc will be to happy. They have been trying to do this for years!


86 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 13161 times:

Not bad, they will most likely operate a B744 on the route. There should be a lot of demand for their famous service.


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineJet-lagged From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 875 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 13142 times:

Interesting. I wonder what, if anything, Australia and the U.S. get in return?

User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 3, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 13078 times:

How does this work in light of Bermuda II - I thought only BA, VS, UA and AA were allowed to fly from LHR to the US? Or is Bermuda II only binding for airlines from GB and the US?


Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineOxygen From Hong Kong, joined Sep 1999, 674 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 13069 times:

Does that mean Qantas' CEO has to dress in Virgin uniform and work as a virgin stewardess for one day ?

User currently offline9V-SVE From Singapore, joined Nov 2001, 2066 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 13021 times:

How does this work in light of Bermuda II - I thought only BA, VS, UA and AA were allowed to fly from LHR to the US? Or is Bermuda II only binding for airlines from GB and the US?

Air India and Kuwait Airways have been flying the route for years.


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 6, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 12979 times:

Oops, didn't know that - I thought they only did that from FRA and AMS, and not from LHR... so, in other words, Bermuda II really only applies to airlines from GB and the US...


Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12944 times:

Singapore Airlines flies to the US ex FRA and AMs, not Cathay.

User currently offlineNotdownnlocked From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 943 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12911 times:

What is not mentioned is that the UK can give any airline the right to fly between the UK and the US any day of the week but what the US government has to say about this is another thing. The US just approved TG's flights from BKK to JFK approx. 2 weeks ago through any city in Europe while specifically excluding LHR from the routing. I read this on Aviation Daily or AWST online 2 weeks ago.

User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 9, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12904 times:

I know - I was referring to AI and KU...


Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12832 times:

Ok, misunderstanding!

User currently offlineBkkair From Thailand, joined Aug 2001, 409 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12814 times:

Unless I am missing someone, this will make CX the only airline that you can fly on around the world, including across North America.



User currently offlineChepos From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2000, 6225 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12797 times:

Bermuda II only applies to airlines from the USA and the UK (2 from each country can fly between LHR and the USA).

Finally VS can start flying the kangaroo route, CX gets a sweet deal in return.
So this means we wont see Richard Branson working a Qantas airlines flights. What a pity I wanted to see this show.
Chepos



Fly the Flag!!!!
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 13, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12759 times:

Does CX already have the permission from the US side? Is there an Open-Skies-Agreement between HK and the US - and would that be applicable in this case, with the aircraft not arriving from HK but Britain?

If they haven't received US permission yet, I'd say that this might just be celebrating a bit early...

Udo - no problem  Big grin



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5279 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 12635 times:

I was under the impression SQ and CX both have Us approval, it is just the UK that was holding it back.

I also don't think australia gets anything back?


User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 12602 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I bet BMI are tearing their hair out seeing a third party airline enter this lucrative market which BD would love to operate.



In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5279 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 12571 times:

I bet, and the US carriers also.

What gets me, is that if the UK/US airlines need to be equal numbers ie 2 US & 2 UK why can't they increase it to 3 of each ie add DL, CO or NW and let BD fly????

But it means more competition, I bet they won;t be allowed to codeshare with AA or BA

Though, the press release does say
'The aviation deal allows for unlimited traffic on routes between Hong Kong and Britain, while giving carriers "fifth freedom" rights, which allow them to fly on to other points.'

So I presume that BD could also fly to Hong Kong, and perhaps allow UK airlines to fly say Hong Kong - USA if the US agreed?

[Edited 2003-11-27 15:54:48]

User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 12411 times:

BD's A332's dont have the legs to do LHR/MAN - HKG.

I heard that BD were starting LHR-DXB though with a A332. When does that start?

Rgds,

CM



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 12366 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

BD won't be flying long haul from LHR until they get the necessary route approval/slots from the authorities. They'll want to start LHR-North America flights for feeder traffic before venturing into Asia.
Also, i wonder how SQ will be feeling that they're biggest rivals, CX, get approval for LON-NYC flights while they've been refused landing rights at JFK?




In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5279 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 12254 times:

Have SQ been refused landing rights? Or have they been refused flying the route from the UK authorities?



User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 12251 times:

Does anyone think that CX will base a 772 or A333 at LHR to do the route (i know they are not the IGW versions, so cant do LHR-HKG) as it will be less of a drain on the finances than a 744 when trying to tap into a new market.

I'd base a 772 or A333 (i think a 773 will be too big - damn!) there permanantly, and then feed them with 744 and A343 from HKG.

CM



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8018 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 12180 times:

The big question right now is how long will CX fly the LHR-JFK route? Given the fact that CX has pretty much recovered from the SARS scare and with the US economy on the rebound, I think CX may eventually give up LHR-JFK as a continuation of the HKG-LHR route in favor of a direct flight from HKG to JFK using the A340-600HGW as they become available from circa late 2005.

User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8148 posts, RR: 54
Reply 22, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 12045 times:

SQ don't need to fly LHR-JFK, or, rather, they already do, seeing how they own 49% of Virgin Atlantic who serve the route thrice daily.


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 23, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 12004 times:

CHRISBA777ER, why wouldn't BD's 332s have the range for LHR-HKG? AF flies 332s on CDG-KIX, which is about 200 miles longer...


Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 11981 times:

Blimey! Do they? Thats impressive... so how come AC dont use their A333's to Vancouver from LHR - surely the stretch can carry more fuel?

Oh well, I stand corrected. I do apologise.

CM



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
25 Post contains images Leskova : CHRISBA777ER, actually, in theory, it should work - the 333s have a range (according to Airbus) of 10400km with full load of pax, LHR-YVR is around 76
26 Alexchao : Hmm, if CX does begin LHR-JFK flights, will AA and BA members be able to accrue mileage on the transatlantic flights? -alexchao
27 Bombayhog : From the LHR Movements website: AC0854 From Vancouver, Canada C-GHKX 330 25/11/2003 11:27 AC0855 To Vancouver, Canada C-GHKR 330 25/11/2003 13:54 So i
28 Ex_SQer : I was under the impression SQ and CX both have Us approval, it is just the UK that was holding it back. Have SQ been refused landing rights? Or have t
29 RayChuang : Bombayhog, I hate to say this, but there are so many flights already between JFK and LHR just from AA, BA, UA and VS (plus single flights from a coupl
30 Johnnybgoode : any chance that VS is going to tap into HKG-SYD already early next year? i need to get to BNE in early March and i´d love to travel with VS. cheers d
31 ConcordeBoy : We can also rest assured that Bethune and Mullin are going to raise absolute holy Hell over this. Give 'em until Friday... Monday at the latest!
32 Artsyman : I have to agree that this is ridiculous. DL, NW, CO etc have been fighting for years to get into LHR to fly the routes to New York, and the British Go
33 ConcordeBoy : Why does the US allow CX to fly the route ? Not to mention the plight of SQ. BA has made a mini-focus at SQ's one and only hub, and flies both of its
34 Sydscott : As ConcordeBoy says this will raise hell with the likes of Continental, Delta and NWA. But on the whole its a great deal. The following link provides
35 Jupiter2 : In relation to the VS HKG/SYD sector, I was under the impression that for Hong Kong to grant these rights then Australia wanted something in return, n
36 Dutchjet : When CX does start service between NYC and London, passengers originating in New York will have the choice to fly CX via London (I imagine the flight
37 Post contains images Richard28 : If they wanted to (I doubt however the logistics would work!) CX could schedule planes flying clockwise (or earth-rotation wise!) HKG-YVR-JFK-LHR-HKG,
38 Bd1959 : Can anyone confirm that agreement is specifically LHR-JFK and HKG-SYD? I've seen 'Transatlantic' and 'Australia' also listed as the agreement in vario
39 Singapore_Air : This is an unacceptable and intolerable situation to be in. It is wholly unfair, unjust and stupid to allow some airline who has only waited four year
40 ConcordeBoy : while other airlines including Kuwait Airways, Air India and even EVA Air have wonderful traffic rights LHR - JFK. AI's rights are grandfathered... th
41 Richard28 : Yikes, imagine if SQ were granted access LHR-JFK, that would cause a bit of strife in the VS board room! SQ dont allow VS to fly LHR-SIN, as its their
42 Singapore_Air : "SQ dont allow VS to fly LHR-SIN, as its their most popular route - VS on the other hand's most popular route is LHR-JFK!" Of course not. Singapore Ai
43 Sydscott : Singapore, the current agreement is a classic one of both Airlines getting what they wanted. Virgin has been desparate to get into the HK-SYD run for
44 Post contains images Sydscott : Concorde I did specify that it was "Cathays" first round the world route. There are numerous other airlines that have in the past flown round the wor
45 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : Ah, that you did... my bad, didnt even read it right. Silly me
46 Richard28 : Singapore_Air - that was precisely my point!!
47 Docpepz : Yes we can whine. We can whine about why BA flies SIN-SYD and SIN-MEL both daily with a 744 while SQ can't get LHR-JFK. Sorry Singapore_Air but even t
48 Mandala499 : Can't pinpoint the reason why... BUT i JUST CAN'T STOP LAUGHING READING THIS! SQ buys VS to gain access to LHR-N.America... VS allows itself to be bou
49 Sydscott : Why does it remind you of the AirNZ debacle Mandala??? What does CX having a daily flight between LHR and JFK and Virgin a daily between HK and SYD h
50 Post contains images Mandala499 : Sydscott, It reminded me about SQ buying into airlines it "can't" control SQ bought an overpriced AirNZ... which then ended up as a complete nightmare
51 Businessflyer : Doesn't this put even more strain on the VS/SQ relationship? VS will market the London to Oz route via HK hard and given the strong brand that it has
52 Sydscott : I wonder what Eddington would do if SQ offered to sell him the Virgin Atlantic stake. Surely it would be too good for him to refuse.
53 Post contains images Gigneil : This would be nowhere near the 1st round the world routing. He said its first, jackass. N
54 Lutfi : Personally, I think the negotiators got together and decided to do this just to annoy Singapore_Air. Note that EU approval is needed (but likely, as c
55 Flyboyqf : Forgive my ignorance here but can someone explain to me how the UK authorities can simply give VS rights to fly HKG/SYD without any input from the Aus
56 Gigneil : The UK and Australia have open skies. N
57 Sydscott : The Australian negotiators were stupid to walk out under pressure from Qantas. They should have done the deal with Hong Kong for Open Skies and access
58 Qantasclub : What a great thread. Clearly a huge win/coup for CX and VS, not so for BA/QF/SQ and any of the airlines flying JFK-LHR already. I can't imagine how fr
59 Bd1959 : Isn't all this talk of "strained relations" between SQ and it's part-owned brother/sister (VS) missing a simple fact? BA and QF can compete on exactly
60 Sydscott : BD1959, QF/BA dont actually compete as such. All services are jointly operated so cities like Brisbane and Perth receive either BA or QF on the route
61 Businessflyer : Bd1959.... Very true, although don't forget that QF/BA operate under a very defined Service Level Agreement and there is consequent very strong co-ope
62 Kanebear : One issue I haven't seen raised is that of the would-be BA/AA merger? Will the addition of another carrier on the JFK-LHR route change that equation a
63 Sydscott : Kanebear Cathay, BA and American are all part of the Oneworld Alliance so the adding an LHR-JFK service isn't going to change anything for BA/AA. I th
64 Bd1959 : Sydscott & Businessflyer, There may be cosy little deals done for Perth & Brisbane (and I guess that BA flights might also feed the Sin QF hub to othe
65 Cx flyboy : Absolutely excellent news. Richard28, The plans I read were exactly what you mentionned, flying HKG-LHR-JFK-YVR-HKG and vice versa. The HKG-JFK direct
66 Qantasclub : Interesting, Cx flyboy. So it seems that CX will be a round the world carrier with HKG-LHR-JFK-YVR-HKG and vice-versa. I wonder if it will work-there
67 Businessflyer : Bd1959... Cheers. I did not realise that they both operated out of Melbourne. But I think generally there is a very strong level of co-operation betwe
68 Qantasclub : Certainly from a passenger's point of view, the two products (QF/BA) are seamless and very much promoted as one product. From OZ, whenever I purchase
69 Kaitak : Great news, I think. My expectation is that the airline will tag the LHR-JFK onto the end of the 255 from HKG, meaning an early morning departure from
70 Lutfi : No, it is most likely to be tagged onto CX253 and be an evening flight to JFK. This can then fly as CX889. Other way round, CX888 becomes a late eveni
71 Post contains links ANstar : Think I have found what Australia & QF want.... http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn/au/publicaffairs/details?ArticleID=2003/nov03/3000 QF are hoping
72 Cospn : Good for them Just open LHR to All US airlines first ...!!!
73 Lutfi : And what will the US offer in return? (for opening up LHR to all US carriers) UK wants at least abolition of Fly America policy & lifting of ownership
74 RiverVisualNYC : Strange that CX would choose to operate LHR-JFK, as this route is hardly underserved by other OneWorld carriers (specifically BA and AA) and CX at JFK
75 ANstar : I'm sure 1 flight a day isn't exactly stiff competition for BA. Plus with this deal, BA also get alot out of it through code sharing with CX from Hong
76 JGPH1A : BD1959 - BA and QF do not "compete" on any UK-Australia routes - the Joint Services Agreement allows for each airline to codeshare on each others flig
77 RiverVisualNYC : AnStar- True, but it's a route with alot of competition already. I'll bet a fair number of BA pax would choose CX all else equal, I imagine BA will pr
78 747firstclass : lets not rush to conclusions. I am near 100% certain that for CX to operate LHR-JFK they will need an openskies agreement with the US. The last few ye
79 EA777 : How are the USA and Australia going to benefit from this, it just means more competition for their airlines.
80 Gigneil : I am near 100% certain that for CX to operate LHR-JFK they will need an openskies agreement with the US. We already agreed to let them operate the rou
81 N754pr : This is great news for Hong Kong, more choice to OZ and more choice for service with class from the UK to the USA.
82 Post contains images Richard28 : 747firstclass: CX already have 5th freedom rights to YVR, and the Bermuda II treaty allows non US airlines to operate through LHR to JFK with UK's per
83 DCAYOW : I would be surprised to see CX do LHR-JFK since CO is already offering EWR-HKG nonstop - which is undoubtedly eating into their traffic. I have heard
84 Post contains images Gigneil : I would be surprised to see CX do LHR-JFK since CO is already offering EWR-HKG nonstop - which is undoubtedly eating into their traffic. They are doin
85 Cx flyboy : SARS set back the JFK direct timing, and now things are really picking up on our current network, the aircraft, and more importantly the crew, are nee
86 Cx flyboy : It is great that we will get more routes into the US. It's about time. US airlines fly from HKG to many places in direct competition with Cathay, so i
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