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Northwest/Republic Merger Question  
User currently offlineNwcoflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 690 posts, RR: 14
Posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 3891 times:

I was wondering who was bigger at the time of the NW/RC merger. I was looking for the sizes of their fleets, amount of revenue (I am pretty sure NW's was larger) and number of pax carried. If anybody has answers to these questions, I would appreciate it.


The New American is arriving.
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBluewave 707 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3152 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 3803 times:

NW was and is the larger of the two, no doubt. RC only had a few types in service DC-9s, MD-80s, 727s, and some propliners. RC had also come off of their take over of Hughes AirWest. Rc's route structure was confined to North America and Mexico. NW's world-wide.


"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
User currently offlineCody From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1932 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 3775 times:

Republic served more cities though. Northwest basically served major North American cities (LAX, JFK, SFO, MIA, MSP, DTW, BOS, MCO, DCA and others) and most of the Orient and some of Europe. Republic, at its peak, flew to just about every town in North America that had a population base of over 50,000 people (sometimes even smaller). At the time of the merger, Republic had dropped a lot of the west coast markets, but even without them, they served more destinations than Northwest Orient.

As for fleet sizes, I am thinking it was a close call between the two. Northwest had larger aircraft, but Republic had bunches upon bunches of DC-9's, plus a nice fleet of 727's and Convairs, and a few 757's. I just remember as a kid bumming airplane rides around the country, no matter how small the airport, Republic was usually there.


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12103 posts, RR: 49
Reply 3, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 3773 times:
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Republic they had 757's as well.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 3729 times:

I am almost more inclined to believe that Republic had the larger fleet at the time. It had well over 100 DC-9s and MD-80s back then, plus a large amount of 727s and CV-580s. Republic had just started taking delivery of the 757 before the merger.

Northwest also just started taking delivery of the 757, but I don't think the 727s, 747s and DC-10s of Northwest were as many as the fleet of Republic.

Also at that time, Republic had Simmons Airways as a commuter affiliate at DTW with Shorts 360s, Emb 110s and Nihon YS11s. I think there was also a Republic Express flying Saab 340s and Jetstreams out of MEM which became Express Airlines One/Pinnacle. I am not sure what Republic used out of MSP. I don't recall Northwest having any commuter feeders until after the merger when they used Fischer Brothers and Mesaba.


User currently offlineSprxflySWA From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 597 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3691 times:

I seem to remember that Republic served about 200 cities right after the Hughes Airwest acquisition. I think it was 189. But , as mentioned before, most of the West and smaller locales were axed. I could count them on one of those Republic/Hughes merger brochures they came out with , but don't want to waste the time. Okay, just looked at it, right around 145,including exciting cities like Dothan,AL;Lewiston,ID;and Worthington,MN.
I bet folks in Bismarck and Minot sure miss having an option to MSP,but RC and NW probably price-fixed,I mean, offered the same fares to MSP.
Any way, sure miss seeing the power out,pushbackless pushes at Stapleton.


User currently offlineIflewrepublic From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 537 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3673 times:

According to Northwest's 1986 Annual Report, the combined two airlines brought together 314 aircraft. Republic brought a mixed fleet of Convairs, DC-9's, 727's, and 757's (there is a note that says, "the Company plans to transfer operating leases for six 757 aircraft to a third party during 1987" -- Republic's six) for a grand total of 171 aircraft. Now, if we do the math, that means that Northwest brought in a fleet of 143 aircraft. This means Republic's fleet was larger. Also, I believe we (Republic) were the sixth largest airline in the country, with Northwest being the seventh. When the merger was completed on October 1, 1986, the size of both airlines together propelled Northwest into the arena of the mega-carriers.

"Through the Republic acquisition, Northwest added more than 60 U.S. cities to its schedule of flights plus five international destinations--two each in Canada and Mexico and one in the Caribbean. Domestic flights focus on three traffic centers--Detroit, Minneapolis/St.Paul and Memphis--each offering more than 200 daily departures with nonstop service to more than 60 cities each. In addition to a focused domestic route system, Northwest also acquired from Republic a varied fleet mixture that allows the airline the flexibility of matching properly sized aircraft to each city's seat demand. Republic's 171 aircraft averaged 105 seats, while the Northwest pre-merger fleet averaged 228 seats. Today's Northwest fleet is well tailored to serve both its domestic and international routes." NWA Inc. 1986 Annual Report.

The annual reports have some interesting information in them. I wish I'd saved them instead of tossing the majority of them.

Iflewrepublic.



Aviation is proof that, given the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineElectraBob From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 931 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (10 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3599 times:

Fischer Brothers Aviation was the Northwest Airlink partner at DTW at the time of the NW/RC merger in 1986. Fischer Bros. flew the Dornier 228, Shorts 360 and Casa 212 Aviocar. You would see their aircraft parked on the North side of concourse A at DTW.

In addition to serving DTW at that time, Fischer Bros. also operated Northwest Airlink flights from Detroit City Airport to Cleveland Burke Lakefront Airport.



Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.....
User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (10 years 9 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3552 times:

I remember the Fischer Bros Casa Aviocars painted in the white livery, but I can't remember any other Shorts 360s at that time except for the colorful Simmons ones and Allegheny Commuter at DTW.

Did Fischer Bros only fly the D0228s out of MSP before the merger? I don't remember the Do228 at DTW until post merger when it was painted in Northwest Airlink colors.

I got some pictures at DTW in the late 80s where Northwest Airlink had F27s, ATR42s, Do228s, Shorts 360s and CASA212s.

And of course I remember the 1987 crash of the CASA 212 at DTW. I know Mesaba was flying the Fokker 27s, but who was flying the ATRs then? I knew Simmons had taken some on order, but I believe by that time Simmons was with American Eagle.

How long did the CV580s stay in the fleet after the merger? I know they were pained in NW colors, but I don't remember them staying in the fleet more than two years. Wouldn't that have been the last mainline turboprop?


User currently offlineProudtoflyaa From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 9 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3515 times:

Stephen Wolf was the head of Republic who sold to Northwest. He joined the company in 1984, and it was the 10th largest airline in the country at that point. Basically, the airline was in trouble because it was just the stitched together route networks of Hughes, North Central, and Southern still. It served more cities than any other carrier. He bought 95,000 options of Republic stock when he joined, not wanting to take wage concessions from the employees (it was the only carrier that hadn't yet exacted wage concessions).

Wolf stopped using "Herman" as the logo and went to the white/grey paint scheme that many aircraft had by the merger. He reworked the route system so that it was hub-and-spoke. Republic's stock soared, and so did Wolf's options value. The airline profited for the first time in five years. In 1985, when United went on strike, Republic did extremely well and had the second highest profit of any carrier in the nation. But, with an older and varied fleet, it would cost a lot of money to replace it, so Wolf decided to leave.

Wolf met with Steven Rothmeier of NW to organize a merger, and even planned a potential hostile takeover of NW in order to provoke them to buy Republic. Northwest paid $1 billion for Republic... Wolf's then 163,000 options at $3.75 were worth $17 a piece and he cashed out and left, plus received another million dollars in severance.

The merger was interesting.... 14 union groups total, incompatible fleets, different routes. Republic employees were paid less than NW at the time, due to wage concessions in turning the airline around. Northwest suffered heavily, as Republic pilots had work slowdowns, flight attendants protested, etc.

And then Wolf went to Flying Tiger to do the same thing.


User currently offlineProudtoflyaa From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (10 years 9 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3504 times:

And of course I remember the 1987 crash of the CASA 212 at DTW. I know Mesaba was flying the Fokker 27s, but who was flying the ATRs then? I knew Simmons had taken some on order, but I believe by that time Simmons was with American Eagle.

Simmons became a Republic Express carrier in 1985, when Republic purchased a 9% share. By 1987 they were an Eagle carrier. I'm not aware of any ATRs flying for Republic/NW.

Mesaba became an NW Airlink carrier on December 1, 1984 out of MSP.

Express Airlines I/Republic Express began on June 1, 1985 out of Memphis.


User currently offlineCody From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1932 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (10 years 9 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3459 times:

Does anyone know if there were any Convairs painted in full Northwest colors? I have seen lots of them painted in the hybrid Northwest/Herman scheme as well as the hybrid Northwest/Mary Tyler Moore scheme. I have never seen any in full Northwest bare metal with wide white stripe and small blue stripe within the white stripe and a big red tail. Did they ever exist that way?

User currently offline4everRC From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 325 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (10 years 9 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3434 times:

Cody...

The Convairs were all retired before they were painted -- NW was committed to having an all-jet fleet, with airlink having all prop-jet operations.

My father, a longtime NC/RC/NW employee, was sad to see them go. I, however, was not so much.



Nobody served our republic like Republic!
User currently offline4everRC From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 325 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (10 years 9 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3430 times:

BTW...

I have never heard of that God-awful hybrid RC/NW scheme refered to as Mary Tyler Moore. Can you explain why?



Nobody served our republic like Republic!
User currently offlineCody From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1932 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (10 years 9 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3357 times:

4everRC,

Thanks for the info. I was upset to see them go. Imagine Northwest Airlines, the world's fourth largest carrier, still operating Convair 580's in 1989! The grey, red, and blue paint job was sometimes referred to as the "Mary Tyler Moore" scheme because at the end of the "Mary Tyler Moore" show, the lettering font and the colors were the same as the last Republic paint job. By the way here's some trivia.......Who owns the Republic name now?


User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6422 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (10 years 9 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3333 times:

How many flights was NW operating at DTW at the time of the merger, and to what destinations?  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineProudtoflyaa From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 9 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3329 times:

Who owns the Republic name now

It's not Chautauqua is it?
Or is their little company Republic Airways...


User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6822 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (10 years 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3277 times:

In 1985, out of MSP NW completed 38895 scheduled flights, RC 49013.

Out of DTW, 13141 NW, 60339 RC. Out of ORD, 10979 NW, 13435 RC.

As of 31 March 1986, the Exxon in-service list shows

NW: 65 727, 35 747, 13 757, 19 DC-10
RC: 18 727, 3 757, 13 CV580, 126 DC-9 not incl the 8 MD-80s.

January thru July 1986, NW had 13.7 billion RPMs, RC had 7.3.


User currently offlineElectraBob From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 931 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (10 years 9 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3247 times:

Hlywdcatft --

The information about the Dornier 228 flights was taken from the Sept. 1986 AX Sky Guide. This was the final month of operations for Northwest and Republic before the merger. The Dorniers flew from DTW to Cleveland Hopkins, Columbus, Flint, and Lansing, and From Detroit City to Cleveland Burke.

The Republic Express flights in Sept. 1986 were operated on Shorts 360, Embraer Bandeirante and Namco YS-11 aircraft. I believe all Republic EX flights were operated by Simmons.

From Minneapolis, Northwest Airlink flights were operated on Swearingen Metro and Fokker F-27 aircraft. Were these operated by Mesaba??
Republic Express flights were operated on Shorts 360, Saab 340 and Jetstream 31 aircraft. I do not know who operated these aircraft. Again, these are from the Sept. 1986 schedules--the final month before the merger.

Here are the fleet breakdowns at the time of the merger --

Northwest --

56 -- Boeing 727-200
10 -- Boeing 727-100
12 -- Boeing 747-100
19 -- Boeing 747-200
06 -- Boeing 747-200F (Cargo)
24 -- Boeing 757-200
19 -- Douglas DC-10-40

Republic --

18 -- Boeing 727-200
06 -- Boeing 757-200
14 -- Convair 580
08 -- Douglas MD-82
63 -- Douglas DC-9-31/32
34 -- Douglas DC-9-14/15/15F
28 -- Douglas DC-9-51

These were taken from the 1986-87 World Airline Fleets Directory.






Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.....
User currently offline4everRC From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 325 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (10 years 9 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3213 times:

OK Cody, I'll bite...

who owns the Republic name as of now? I thought I heard of a company call Republic AirWAYS, but know nothing about them



Nobody served our republic like Republic!
User currently offlineCody From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1932 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (10 years 9 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3201 times:

OK here is the story.......or so I am told. When Bryan Bedford left Mesaba, he was given the Republic name as part of a severance or something. He brought it to Chautauqua. Wexford, Chautauqua's owner, created a holding company using the Republic name. So the title now is, "Chautauqua Airlines, A Republic Airways Company." Republic Airways Holdings is about to start another carrier based in SDF. It will be called "Republic Airlines, A Republic Airways Company".

I wish they would bring back the duck, but I don't think they will. Right now the logo is a circle of stars surrounding the Republic name.


User currently offlineIndustrialPate From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3145 times:

Awhile ago, I wrote & posted an article with most of the information you're seeking:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1077499/

[Edited 2003-12-02 02:08:43]

User currently offline4everRC From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 325 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (10 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3144 times:

Cody,

Thanks for the information. Wow, a new Republic Airlines -- how cool is that?!?!?!

And I agree -- start a writing campaign now! Help Herman rise from the ashes!!

BTW...Herman was in still on every aircraft in the final RC livery -- a six inch reduction of the old tail decal right next to the boarding door.



Nobody served our republic like Republic!
User currently offlineNwcoflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 690 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (10 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3121 times:

Thanks for all of the answers to everyone here. (IndustrialPate , that was a great article you wrote on the merger). Does anybody know what NW's profit was during the fourth quarter of 1986, and the first quarter of 87, right after the merger?


The New American is arriving.
User currently offlineCody From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1932 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (10 years 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3076 times:

I heard about the Herman logo beside the door, but I never got to see it. Was it turquoise or was it in the new red and grey?

User currently offlineNorjet From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (10 years 9 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3035 times:

The mini-Herman was in navy blue, just as it had been painted on the tail on the earlier livery.

Simmons operated 360's into MSP from their Upper Peninsula / Michigan services (CMX, MQT, ESC?), however almost all Express flying was done by Express Airlines I aka Phoenix, today's Pinnacle. 340's and Jetstreams. Fischer Bros. never made it out to MSP, I believe Flint was as far west as they got...

The Jetstreams started with the Mary Tyler Moore livery and progressed through the hybrid style, then "classic" Northwest (albeit grey paint, not polished metal), and finally to the red-on-grey. At one time you could stand at the end of the Green Concourse and take in a panoramic view of Convairs, Saabs, and Jetstreams. It was very beautiful.



Publishing travel advice for adopting families - to justify being an airline geek
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