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Toronto Island Airport  
User currently offlineSPLOBKrakow From Poland, joined Sep 2003, 105 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4597 times:

Just wanted to know how the members of a.net feel about the Toronto Island Airport?
There has been some controversy about whether the bridge connecting the isalnd with the rest of Toronto should be build.
The bridge would hava a positive impact on Toronto's economy. There was a deal signed regarding a new airline that would be based on the island if the bridge was build. This proposed airline was to sing a descent size contract with Bombardier. And since Bombardier is not doing too well at this point it might be a good way to give them a small boost.

Just in general what are the thoughts and feeling about the isalnd airport?And how does the airport contribute to Toronto's economy?

Does anyone know how many or what types of flighs leave from the airport and what types of flights are comming in.

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6659 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4567 times:

How high are the number of bizjet movements at the airports?Seems perfectly designed for some of the smaller ones.But what is the largest airliner that can be accommodated?Dash8 or so?

User currently offlineRattibone From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4510 times:

Donder,

Under a triparte agreement between the Government of Canada, Government of Ontario and the City of Toronto, there is a jet ban imposed on YTZ since 1983. No jets except medivacs are allowed to fly into YTZ.

This airport has been a hot topic here in Toronto the last month or so. A new mayor has come in and part of his promises was to kill a bridge link project that began two weeks ago. Prior to his election, the previous Toronto council approved the construction and an agreement was reached with the three governments to build it. You need the consent of all three governments to make any improvements to YTZ. Yesterday however the newly election council and mayor voted against the bridge construction. Now any construction that began will be halted until further notice.

That's just a small piece of what has gone on at that airport recently. Go to www.thestar.com and do a search and you can get caught up.

Also the traffic that flies in and out of YTZ is mostly private and around 10-15 Air Canada Jazz Dash 8 flights to YOW and YUL.


User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4501 times:

Given the hefty (and often slightly vociferous  Smile ) representation weighing in on the part of Toronto crew around here, it is surprising that this sad disgrace latest turn of developments with Toronto's besieged Island bridge project hasn't prompted much of a response yet.

It's bad news for so many people --Bombardier and REGCO guys of course, just about all the regional intercity travelers in Ontario and Southern Quebec and maybe even New Brunswick, PEI and Nova Scotia. An intercity travelers to and from Toronto from most of the U.S. Eastern Seabord and MidWest as well. Not to mention most of the citizens of the Greater Toronto area generally, who'd benefit indirectly even if they didn't make use of the Island airport themselves.

The decision benefits so few --just a few really-rich Toronto Harbourfront property owners. And Mr. Mayor and a few city councillor buddies, as well as a few Liberal Party caucus (and cabinet) members in Ottawa, who may have personal friends among those really-rich Toronto Harbourfront property owners and may have felt swayed by those allegiances when making the recent decision.

The whole thing seems quite 'Banana Republic' !



As for the few dozen or so weekly Dash 8 AC Jazz flights working there now and shuttling to and from YOW, let's at least hope nobody pulls the plug on that one too anytime soon .


Ah okay, Rattibone beat my post by a few minutes and clarified things nicely. Good to see Torontonian input here after all  Smile (P.S. no AC Jazz Dash 8 flights to and from YUL and YTZ though, alas. YOW and that's all she wrote)

[Edited 2003-12-05 10:10:02]

User currently offlineAtpcliff From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4437 times:

Hi!

My wife's from YYZ, which I've visited a lot (and flown into a number of times, in the front of the aircraft-the very front). I've also visited the island quite a few times.

I think that, overall, a bridge to the island/airport would be better than not having a bridge.

It's very similar to the Meigs field, ORD park vs. airport debate.

I think that only quiet aircraft should be allowed into the island airport, and on a restricted schedule (no night flights, etc.).

I would like feedback on my views, especially from anyone that lives in YYZ.

Cliff
DTW

PS-I'm VERY excited about the light rail line from downtown Toronto to YYZ.



TRY. It's all you have control over, and it's what God wants.
User currently offlineAlekToronto From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 328 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4369 times:

hey guys..as someone who lives in Toronto and lives on the Harbourfront of that city I think that the stink over the Island Airport is rather amusing really.
Personally I don't see how a bridge to the Island will really benefit the Airport.
I mean look at it this way - the current ferry to the island takes a whole 3 mins. I used to fly out of YTZ a lot when Air Ontario (now JAZZ) used to fly to Montreal. The flights were never full. Now there are only flights to Ottawa going and even those are not doing so hot, but are subsidized by political types.
Honestly several airlines in the past have tried service out of the island with little succcess, the people of Toronto, business travelers included just dont want to fly turboprops - they would rather catch the bus to YYZ to get on a jet.
How much research has this new Airline done on demand from the Island? I have this feeling that even if they went ahead with offering service from YTZ to 10 close cities - they just won't do so well, everyone I know will still go to Pearson (YYZ). I mean if demand is there why not start now? What difference does a bridge make? I really don't understand the fuss...there is nothing stopping this Airline from starting now, its not like YTZ is crowded! Of course if the bridge is built it will be done in the typical efficient Toronto fashion - over budget and over schedule.

The reality is that although building a bridge will have short term economic benefits - if Toronto could get their act together and clean up the Harbourfront and make it a place people want to visit and live at (like Chicago for example) the economics are more advantageous and finally Toronto would have something nice to look at on the water!

cheers.


User currently offlineYegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1723 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4336 times:

I live downtown. I frequently go to Ottawa and I love the service eventhough it's a Dash8.

Unless they build that train link, I think nothing wrong with expanding the Isalnd Airport


User currently offlineOlympus69 From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 1737 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4295 times:

Alek,

The ferry service to YTZ is adequate for the present level of service to/from that airport but doesn't have the capacity to cater for the much higher demand that would result from REGCO's services. With the Dash 8-400s that they would be using, flights between YTZ and YUL/YOW would take a lot of traffic away from AC's Rapidair service to YUL and YOW.

The problem with the ferry, apart from its small size, is that the parking lot on the mainland side is small with no room for expansion - though I suppose not many people would drive their own cars. Also, on the airport side one has to walk a hundred yards or so to get to the terminal. There is also the waiting time for the ferry to consider - even though it's only about 15 minutes between trips.


User currently offlineDonreith From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4283 times:

alekToronto,

I agree with you. I don't see how a bridge is going to get more people out to this airport, especially with a rail link to Pearson now in the works. I have a hard time believing that a bridge (or lack of one) enters into any part of the decision of whether to fly out of YTZ. That decision is based on destinations served, flight times, cost, and aircraft type (prop vs. jet). It surprises me that this point has been lost in the debate. I'm not sure that the "if they build it they will come" mentality will work in this case.

Now, a project that would be interesting is finding a way to get a GO train to YHM. That get's the folks in Hamilton some better transit as well as those of us in GTA a real alternative to YYZ.


User currently offlineBOAC707 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 278 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4271 times:

There is/was a group called something like Regional Airline Holdings that was set to order 45 Dash8-400 to start flying all over the place from YTZ.

There are a number of legal ramifications for the City of Toronto for overturning the decision to go ahead with the bridge. The lawsuits mentioned are valid for the most part. The Port Authority would be successful in having the City re-imburse them for construction costs already undertaken and the penalties they face in cancelling construction contracts already awarded. This is above and beyond the punitive damages that can be awarded to a lot a players in this.

The City's insurance will not cover all the lawsuits awards so the taxpayers will be on the hook...probably for about $300 million..



smokey classics to the end of time
User currently offlineInbound From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Sep 2001, 851 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4198 times:

if they build that bridge, all those flight students (previously including me) won't have a good excuse for being 15 minutes late for their bookings
hehe.



Maintain own separation with terrain!
User currently offlineUSAFHummer From United States of America, joined May 2000, 10685 posts, RR: 53
Reply 11, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4182 times:

Distance wise how far is the island from the mainland??? How long of a bridge are they talking about???

Greg



Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
User currently offlineSPLOBKrakow From Poland, joined Sep 2003, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (10 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4154 times:

Toronto is expanding, therefore both the controvercial brige and the train connecting Union Station and Pearson are necessary. I'm just wondering what is so bad about this bridge. It might bring in a little more air traffic to the water front. There will be no jets flying in therefore it make no difference for the habrourfront residents. And this can lead to an increase of jobs, in the airport itself and also in Bombardier. As of now it looks to be a good idea.

As far I know the main reason for building the bridge is to connect Toronto to to other major cities in the US. Not that Toronto is not connected to mojor cities via Pearson but this will alow businessmen to come driectly into the downtown area, without having to travel from Peason to downtow. And all Toronto residents know that a trip from YYZ to downtown can get very lenghty.



User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2990 posts, RR: 37
Reply 13, posted (10 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4133 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

YTZ and noise is a joke... people complain all day long about "noisy airliners" and yet several studies done in the condo buildings affected have shown extremely low noise levels inside the condos in a normal "closed" (A/C on, windows and doors closed) room. Traffic on the Gardiner Expressway was deemed to be much more of a noise pollution concern then either YTZ or the traffic going to and from it. Of course these studies have been ignored/hidden/put in Appendex 333028974A/filed away in room 999... etc

Also people complain on and on about bigger planes making more noise while they allow the noisiest GA aircraft into YTZ without batting an eyelash. The noise levels produced by the Jazz Dash 8s is much lower than a good portion of the other traffic using that airport. However back in 1988, several parties lobbied the stupid weight based limitations be replaced by a noise level based limit was brought to a unsucessful end by some of the very same groups now lobbying against the bridge. Air Ontario and British Aerospace at the time demonstrated the BAe 146-200 at YTZ and showed its sideline noise levels were well below that of some of the other aircraft using YTZ. If the limits had been dropped at that time, Air Ontario would of bought the 146 and flown YTZ-YOW/YUL with them along with replacing the remaining F.28 fleet (this was about a year before Dryden). Didn't happen of course...

What's happened with the Bridge is it became an election issue, but the issue that was attached to it was "expansion of the island airport". The bridge had nothing to do with the expansion on its own, but an expansion was proposed to take place after the bridge was built. So basically Story A (airport expansion) attached to index for story B (bridge). Now Mayor Miller has stepped into the deep end with canceling it but ill wait and see if he can swim or not, its going to get ugly in any case.

In 25 years i expect YTZ to be another waterfront park... another great airport canned by local special interests...



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlineOlympus69 From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 1737 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (10 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4130 times:

Distance wise how far is the island from the mainland??? How long of a bridge are they talking about???

Greg,

The shipping channel between the Airport and the mainland is about 400 feet wide. The bridge would have been a lift bridge to allow ships to pass through and would be about 500 feet long I think.



User currently offlineCytz_pilot From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 568 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (10 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4054 times:

I guess having my name as CYTZ Pilot, I should add something... Smile

I have 150 flight hours out of TCCA, so perhaps my desire for the bridge (and something new and exciting to happen to the airport) comes from pure nostalgia. I've been following the whole bridge issue for awhile, and it angers me that in one day of council debate, a bunch of people who have nothing to do with aviation can shrug off what thousands of CYTZ employees, pilots and students have been wanting for for decades.

It seems to me, that if the bridge doesn't go through, the future for the airport looks dead. The Port Authority already loses lots of money on the airport, if countless millions more are lost, what is the real benefit of keeping the airport open? Hundreds will lose their jobs, and hundreds of students will be out on their own...Buttonville, Oshawa and Burlington aren't exactly 'close', especially for transit users like me.

If it should get cancelled, there is the issue of who gets charged with all the bills for the half-built bridge. Either the taxpayers or the Port Authority. Yup, it could come down to the taxpayers or a government entity (funded by taxpayers anyway) paying hundreds of millions of dollars NOT to build a bridge which could boost the business economy of the city. Logical!!!

It amazed me recently how much people rallied against the airport...the minute Miller started his chant, all of a sudden the airport got some kind of stigma to it. Now many people not only want to see the bridge cancelled, but the airport closed. People who don't live anywhere near the airport are starting to foam at the mouth about it! (metaphorically)

All in all, even though I don't exactly see how they're going to make a large regional expansion to such a small airport, I'd like to see the bridge. That massive ferry spewing out diesel fumes and charging $2.50 each way (it's tough being a student there!) is certainly not ideal!

But a funny addition...I remember back before the election, Miller ran a newspaper ad saying 'An expansion to CYTZ will be like an air show every day', and the picture was a PhotoShopped 737-200 cloned about a hundred times over the Inner Harbour. I looked at it and said, 'Wow that would be so cool!!!!!!!'  Smile

Chris


User currently offlineYOW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3998 times:

Very well said Cytz_pilot. I'm all for the brige link and also for REGCO to sue the pants off the city for catering to these lie-filled, special-interest groups.

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (10 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3925 times:

hey guys..as someone who lives in Toronto and lives on the Harbourfront of that city I think that the stink over the Island Airport is rather amusing really.
Personally I don't see how a bridge to the Island will really benefit the Airport.


I agree with you. I also live at Harbourfront and fully support expansion of the airport. However, YTZ (which loese about $1M pa) does not need a bridge to expand....it just needs an entrepreneur who will add flights. City Express flew 500k passengers a years in 1988 with the existing infrastructure...YTZ pax counts are now down to about 80k.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineHmmmm... From Canada, joined May 1999, 2104 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (10 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3921 times:

This bridge decision is another manifestation of NIMBY. The issue is supposed to be about noise, which is why jets are banned. But you can live in Markham right next to Buttonville airport and the noise footprint of jet activity there is microscopic. There are many jet movements everyday there and wealthy homeowners have never complained about the jet activity. Outside, you hear the jet for a few sections and then it's gone. Inside you hear nothing. Keep in mind that these same protestors would prefer if Pearson itself was located in the middle of Hudson's Bay, if possible. With no bridge there, either.


An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (10 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3918 times:

I remember back before the election, Miller ran a newspaper ad saying 'An expansion to CYTZ will be like an air show every day', and the picture was a PhotoShopped 737-200 cloned about a hundred times over the Inner Harbour.

That same pic was also the basis of his election brochure! It was such nonsense....732's would NEVER fly to YTZ anyway. I think he won the election in part based on false information about Island Airport expansion.

In 25 years i expect YTZ to be another waterfront park... another great airport canned by local special interests...

No, I disagree. The Island Airport is very contaminated (as are all airports). It would cost an estimated $1.2B to clean up the land to make it suitable for a public parkland. No one has $1.2B.....so the airport must remain open as an airport or be abandoned.

I agree that if we were doing it all over again, we should not builld an airport on the island. However, there IS an airport though....so we should keep it since the costs of decommission are too expesnive.







Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (10 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3890 times:

Hey AlekToronto, YEGBEY01 and CYTZ-pilot.....maybe we should all get together for a beer sometime since we're all at Harbourfront.  Big grin

I thought I was the only Harbourfront resident in favour of YTZ expansion. I guess there are 4 of us. Unless one of you is a spy for David Miller.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineYegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1723 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (10 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3864 times:

Yyz717

You bet! anytime.


User currently offlineOlympus69 From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 1737 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (10 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3813 times:

Cytz_pilot,

I have a sentimental attachment to the Island Airport as I got my PPL there in 1967 - back in the days of the Wong brothers Central Airways - nicknamed the 'Chinese Airforce'.

I'm a Lakeshore resident - not a Harbourfront one. I'm totally in favour of a bridge. However it looks like its D-E-D dead as Mayor Lastman once said.  Smile

Incidentally, what 'half built bridge'? They haven't even started construction on the actual bridge. Also 'massive ferry'? The so-called cabins wouldn't even hold the passengers from a Dash 8-400. Back in my student days the fare was quite low - especially as students and airport employees got a discount.


User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2990 posts, RR: 37
Reply 23, posted (10 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3805 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

apparently there has been work started on the bridge, 3 weeks ago. I betcha they moved one paving stone or something, just enough to make the contracts binding. The contractor had said he's gonna sue, so probably as soon as Miller won the election he made sure all his ducks were lined up.


Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlineCytz_pilot From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 568 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (10 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3752 times:

Olympus,

By 'half built bridge', I meant that even though very little has been built, the way has been paved with expensive environmental assessments, the hiring of contracters to design and build it...from an expense point of view, it's very likely that between 1/2 to 2/3 of the expenses towards the construction of the bridge have already been paid. (I'm not sure of this though!!! I just know all the pre-planning that has to go in to this sort of challenge).

But yes you are right about the ferry...it isn't big passenger wise, but you can get a couple big fuel trucks on.

Chris


25 John : How long are the runways at YTZ? Less than 5,000 feet?
26 Planemaker : Hey guys, You better start reading the WHOLE article in the Star, Globe or the Post. No one can start ANY legal action because... the Federal Governme
27 AlekToronto : hey guys... I guess this whole Island Airport thing really got out of hand during the election and of course once elected city council had no choice b
28 SPLOBKrakow : "does not need a bridge to expand....it just needs an entrepreneur who will add flights." And there was someone willing to do it if the bridge was bui
29 Olympus69 : By 'half built bridge', I meant that even though very little has been built, the way has been paved with expensive environmental assessments, the hiri
30 STT757 : During the late Eighties-Early Nineties CO had a connection partner who flew DH-7s from EWR- Toronto Island, the name escapes me at the moment.
31 Yyz717 : During the late Eighties-Early Nineties CO had a connection partner who flew DH-7s from EWR- Toronto Island, the name escapes me at the moment. City E
32 Planemaker : The former owner started Trans Capital Air wt YTZ with one of the ex-City Express Dash 7's for charter flights. It is based at YTZ and flies around re
33 Post contains links and images Olympus69 : US Airways Express (Commutair) had a short lived service to YTZ using Beech 1900Ds in the late Nineties. I don't know where they flew to/from. This is
34 Yyz717 : The US Express service commenced in late 99 and ran for just over a year. It flew YTZ-ROC with no continuing service to any US hub, hence the market w
35 Olympus69 : It would also probably need to have US Customs pre-clearance. Incidentally the picture was taken in June 1999 - that's not exactly 'late 99'.
36 Socrates17 : .backwards everything do always I I used to find flying into the island so much fun I did City Express a couple of times from EWR even though my busin
37 Post contains images MartinairYYZ : I am all for the expansion and even did a project on it . It would dramatically increase jobs and property rates WOULD NOT go down. Now that we have a
38 Olympus69 : John, How long are the runways at YTZ? Less than 5,000 feet? Yes. The 3 runways are 4000', 3000' and 2780'. One runway has ILS.
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