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What's Wrong With United?  
User currently offlineFlyingBanker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5837 times:

I really do apologize, I am just not sure I see the problem with United...........if there is one. They try to be as on time as possible, they take you where you want to go. I realize they are a BIG airline, but still they are the heart and soul of many a family.........why the hate?

56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD11 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 1701 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5701 times:

Besides the fact that they have alienated some of their best passengers, have some of the highest fares in the industry cumulative, and are severely mismanaged?

I will be fling with United on December 31st of this year SAN-DEN-PHL. My first time flying United in 3 years after a round of horrible travel experiences on family vacations (2 of them). I certainly hope things have improved.



Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
User currently offlineBeltwaybandit From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 495 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5547 times:

Right now, United is a very destructive force in the US airline industry. They are operating in bankruptcy and desperately trying to meet cashflow targets; and to do so they are selling seats at WAY below their costs. This is putting a real strain on the solvent airlines that must compete with them.

User currently offlineLastBaron From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 290 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5477 times:

Well put, Beltwaybandit. Am personally flying UAL JFK-FRA-MUC for $214 r/t. Talk about destructive force!

I am only flying them because of the fare. I detest UAL after all bad experiences on their flights no matter where I have flown them in the world. I am also secretly hoping the flight is operated by LH as it is codeshare. In that case at least I know I will have a pleasant flight. UAL is also not only a destructive force, but also foolish. What airline can conscientiously go ahead and launch an "airline within in airline LCC" in the face of its own death, knowing full well that these are usually doomed to failure (case in point - MetroJet) and that they might as well just burn the cash instead... unbelievable arrogance, stupidity and callousness over in their HQ IMO...


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 4, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5448 times:

Personally, I like UA - I've flown them about 20-25 times last year, including transatlantic and between the west coast and Hawaii, and it was a pleasant experience on every flight.

LastBaron, if you want to know who operates your flights, you can - if you want to - just drop me an eMail with the flight numbers, and I'll look it up for you...



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlinePotomac From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 713 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5423 times:

i think there's a slight exaggeration here over how many of UAs low-fares-below-costs there really are. while certain fares are on sale, you'll find much more at 'normal' levels. UA is only doing what any other airline does - strategically pick routes where low fares can attract more passengers and bring in additional revenue.

and if low fares are so destructive, should we start bashing WN and other LCCs for making things so tough for the majors in the first place? i don't think so. this is a cutthroat, competitive industry. fares are lowered all the time, and its up to competitors to follow suit. one minute UA is attacked for its high fares and why it doesnt offer fares more appealing to the traveller, then its criticized bcs it offers too many low fares and is damaging the rest of the industry. thats ridiculous.

once again, it seems like we have a thread where pure dislike for UA gets in the way of reasonable arguments. UA is not operating 'in the face of its own death' - they are not yet out of BK, but they are closer to emerging than they are to dying. they see the TED airline-within-airline indea as a way - yet not the only way - to offer product that can appeal to part of the passenger base and hopefully generate further revenue. the comparison to metrojet and other airlines-within-airlines examples of the past is short-sighted. metrojet was a low-fare operation that offered proportionately less service as well. TED, much like Song - which has proven to be successful incidentally - reflects a low cost operation that doesnt NOT offer less service, but rather that which is equal to mainline service: low fares without sacrificing the passenger experience that people enjoy on the mainline. its a matter of looking at why people go to LCCs in the first place as well as why they stay with mainline carriers, and establishing a product that builds on the merits of both.


User currently offlineLastBaron From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 290 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5402 times:

Song is successful, ut the parent posts $160 M loss... hmmm, how successful can it be? And how long can DAL afford to keep losses like that going before it has to do a Ch. 11 number itself? Again, the reason why people dislike UAL is their callous, arrogant management, the poor quality of same, the stupid business decisions and yes, the HUGE number of dumping-priced tickets currently on the market by UAL (ask any travel agent and go visit Orbitz)...

TED is being started as a rival to WN and FL and others, not as some noble experiment as Potomac has implied. Metrojet was set up as a defensive actionin much the same way by USAirways at BWI to fend off WN and it was a well-run airline within an airline, even though USAirways needed to pull the plug after only 18 mos. due to its own mounting losses. The scenario is very similar therefore and not to be dismissed as inappropriate comparison. According to numerous financial and industry sites, UAL is nowhere near emerging from Ch. 11 in the next 12-18 mos., and many question whether they will be able to survive without a merger.


User currently offlineUA744Flagship From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5376 times:

Actually, United's average fare for the 11 months ended in 2003 is above that of its average fare for the 11 months ended in 2002, pre-bankruptcy.

I just crapped all over your theory.


User currently offlineIcarus75 From France, joined Oct 2003, 797 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5370 times:

Personally, I really like UA!
Everytime I go to United States, its the company I choose for :
* The choice of destinations from CDG.
* The convinience of the connection.
* And the very good prices when I compare to other airlines (like AF for example).
Just one thing I really dislike with UA : the dramatic change in the breakfast, coach section, eastbound flights : the changes are really for the worse!



Flying is amazing!
User currently offlineBlatantEcho From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1903 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5365 times:

I dislike United because I'm a capitalist. Companies run so poorly, I don't believe, should be backed up by the government just because they are full of nice little assets.

Let the ship sink, and the market will correct itself. Instead of a ton of planes on the market, and other airlines that DID survive, gaining from that, UA is still flying around, none the worse for wear.

For the families? Aviation is a high risk, high reward industry. I have no remorse for the people who made aviation their career, knowing full well the cyclical nature of it all, yet cry foul when they are out of a job.

Sounds harsh, but I don't mean to offend, I just like to let the market decide.

George



They're not handing trophies out today
User currently offlineLastBaron From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 290 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5348 times:

Actually, United's average fare for the 11 months ended in 2003 is above that of its average fare for the 11 months ended in 2002, pre-bankruptcy.

I just crapped all over your theory.


Maybe. But he who laughs last, laughs best. I'll be laughing when your "flagship" goes belly up and leaves thousands stranded all over the globe. Hope you are not among them ...  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


User currently offlinePotomac From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 713 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5345 times:

well baron, i guess we'll just agree to disagree. in my travels, i just dont see UA as the perennial stand out for offering the lowest fares. $200 to europe? well, winter isnt the most popular time to go there - i've seen fares at those levels in years past, and on other airlines for that matter.

of course TED is both a response to market needs and to compete with other LCCs. i couldnt find the 'noble experiment' reference in my earlier post, but i agree that you could characterize it as an experiment, just like any other venture in this industry. my point is that UA is not relying on TED to be the one factor that will make and break the airline. if its proves to be successful, that will certainly help UA, along with the under initiatives it is underatking to control costs and increase revenue streams. however, i think the TED venture is insulated enough that if it doesnt pan out, the investment and impacts will not be enough to bring the airline down.

if you want to draw parallels to the fact that TED and metrojet were both defensive actions and airlines-within-airlines, then fine. i'd like to see what airline ventures these days that are not defensive actions to what competitors are doing. but that's where i'd stop. metrojet: low fares, minimal service offering (less than mainline), rapid growth and excessive dependency as a revenue stream for US overall. TED: low fares, comparable service to mainline and that which is intended to distinguish itself from most LCCs, controlled growth, and not the primary product to help stand up united.

you can knock UA management all you want, but i'd like to see the meeting notes where they were planning TED and decided to make it just like metrojet, shuttle by united, and continental lite. its a matter of looking at what has worked and what hasnt among LCCs and airlines-within-airlines, and then looking to also create a product that is distinguishe dfrom what the current LCCs offer. all with a minimal upfront investment.


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7569 posts, RR: 43
Reply 12, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5326 times:

An additional problem of UA is that, last month, MX decided to terminate its code share agreements with UA. With this move, UA has become a very insignificant player in the U.S.-Mexico flights market, way behind MX, AM/DL, AA and CO. I think that IAD and, perhaps SFO, are now the only non-stop routes that UA serves from MX), Mexico">MEX without competition.


Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineLastBaron From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 290 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5312 times:

Well, good luck to TED. If they are offering "mainline service," then it is not an LCC to begin with. The business model for an LCC, just like that for a limited service motel, is limited service. Offering "mainline service," whatever that is supposed to be (sounds like more UAL smoke) means that they are not really going to be an LCC. Just low fares doth not an LCC make...

User currently offlinePiedmontGirl From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1124 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5256 times:

BlatantEcho:

I, too, think it's pointless for the taxpayers to keep subsidizing the incompetence of various airline managers.

A lovely novel called Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand is not only a wonderful lesson in capitalism, but the author writes a section where the heroine of the book flies an airplane. It's amazing how well that flying passage is written given that Ayn Rand was terrified of flying.


User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5102 times:

Nothing, as far as I'm concerned. It's a great airline. Nice, hardworking staff, best frequent flyer program, clean and safe aircraft, excellent route network and alliances, free headphones and Channel 9 (ATC - pilot communications).

You might want to do a search. There have been a couple of recent United lover and hater threads recently. Most have anecdotal experiences but you'll figure out on your own who's credible or not.


User currently offlinePotomac From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 713 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4998 times:

low cost carrier USED to mean simply low fares and limited service for the passenger. a quick look at jetblue, song, and others reveals that to no longer be the case. passengers who were once willing to accept minimal service in exchange for low fares now look for something more. the definition of LCC is no longer just defined by southwest because they're not the only one around. in a market with more and more LCCs operating, and where they are now forced to compete with other LCCs in addition to mainline carriers, it is up to the LCCs to look for new ways to distinguish themselves from ALL competitors.

it isnt smart strategy to start an LCC based purely on the on the orginal/Southwest definition of an LCC. TED and Song strike me as attempts to offer service at low fares, with lower operating costs, but with the enhanced service equal to or better with what a passenger would find on southwest, jet blue, american, or any other carrier - LCC or not.

i'm not saying that TED and song are guaranteed to be successful. but i do believe they are smart responses to the market, and are distinct from previous airline-within-airline and LCC entrants.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4872 times:

United is similar to all of the legacy airlines in that they are trying to remake themselves to adapt to the new airline world. Aviation has always been a risky business and airlines as a whole have never made money. Unless something changes in the next 100 years, UA may survive but will never thrive. Whether TED is successful is not the right question since all legacy airlines have to take dramatic steps to survive. United will take different strategies to turn itself around from what other legacy carriers take; history argues that United will make some significant strategic missteps but still be somehow able to survive.

Have a look at USAToday on the the front of the Business section for Fri 12/5 and you will see an article about the Saturn division of General Motors. Saturn was created as a brand within a brand to do business very differently from what was seen in the rest of GM - very much in the same way Delta and United are approaching Song and Ted (sounds like a cute couple, heh?). Saturn is not doing well because it did not take advantage of GM's tremendous resources available during the 90's when GM itself made a rather remarkable recovery from the brink of disaster. Saturn is losing alot of its original distinctives in an attempt to turn it around; Saturn should have been a laboratory for positively influencing the other GM brands for the better. Song and Ted will only be successful if they are part of the process Delta and United use to turn the larger airline around.

$200 fares were offered by every transatlantic airline so United isn't doing anything other carriers haven't done. UA may be taking a higher percentage of cheap fares than other airlines because UA lost alot of premium traffic as they approached and went into bankruptcy. Flagship, most US airlines had better average fares this year than last although UA's increase was bigger given that they had a bigger falloff last year since their bankruptcy was brewing for several months and they lost alot of paying customers, particularly on the high end.

There are several key factors that will determine whether UAL gets out of bankruptcy and survives:
1. Operational profitability - which UA has largely achieved because of huge labor cost cuts rather than improved revenue performance.
2. Pension funding - UA is the very difficult position of having to address is pension underfunding in order to get out of bankruptcy even though US defined pension plans are underfunded and don't have to be fully funded for years.
3. Major strategic changes - IAD/ACA, Mexicana, Varig are all issues UA has to deal with; no other airline has as many major strategic changes happening to them.
4. Time. Other US airlines are turning themselves around. UAL most resolve issues 2 and 3 above or creditors will realize they have no reason to continue to pour money into UAL. UAL's DIP financing must be repaid beginning in about 4 months; some hard questions will be asked about whether it is worth continuing down the path of keeping UAL operating. While no single US airline will acquire United, it is entirely possible that a number of UAL's competitors will be in a position to begin bidding on UA's assets in the next couple months. The creditors are as willing to consider bids for UA's assets from competitors as they are to take further risks and prop UAL up.

Blatant is right. The free enterprise system will pick and choose the winners in the airline industry. Uncle Sam and the American people have propped UA and the rest of the airline industry up for the last several years; it is not up to every US airline to stand on their own two feet and make it based on their own merits.


User currently offlineBeltwaybandit From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 495 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4870 times:

LCC is a meaningless distinction that will go away before long. Does anyone choose to be a high cost carrier? Of course not. All carriers are as low cost as they can be. Unfortunately, as an airline ages, its cost structure inevitably rises. Seniority is a b!tch for the bottom line.

JetBlue is offering as nice a travel experience as anyone, so their is not distinction in the level of service.

Air travel has become very generic, and price is the primary distinction. Consumers are the big winners.


User currently offlinePotomac From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 713 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4860 times:

i'm with you on that, bandit, an LCC is only an LCC if there are "HCCs" to compete against. the distinction will continue to get watered down. with that, however, when low fares drops as the distiguising factor, that's where the other differentiators will come to the forefront. jet blue took the traditional LCC model and added some unprecedented services features to separate itself from the norm. that seems to be the pattern now, where while low fares and a simplified cost structure is the constant, new entrants look to provide service and benefits slightly better than the previous guy. the more and more this happens, the less the original LCC model will prevail.

User currently offlineCvervais From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 610 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4859 times:

What's wrong with United?

It is a company that provides a service in a market economy to many people. Some people like it, some people don't.

I happen to be one of the people that like it. I can only speak for myself and each time I've flown with them it has been a pleasant expirence regradless of what class I was flying in and what m FF status is/was.

The few times where there's been a problem it was due to circumstances beyond their control such as weather cancellations and for me personally the problem I had was with the other pax and not the United employees.

It amazes me how many people don't read the contract of carrage and base all their assumptions on what they hear from others or the media as to the airlines responsibility.

I wish them all the success in the world. I am at times disapointed in their management but does that mean i should peanalize all the employees doing the right thing by not flying with them because of their management?

No, trust me if United folds the big losers are going to be the employees and not the management.


User currently offlineUaord From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4836 times:

I think United has one of the best fleets in the country and utilize their aircraft options with distance and comfort in mind, unlike some airlines that count on MD-80 and DC9's as their workhorses etc and use the 757 on the transcontinental routes.

Their on-time performance is ranked #1. Will be interesting to see what the winter season does to their performance with hubs in Chicago, Denver, and Dulles.



User currently offlineFlyingBanker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4802 times:

I should have been more specific on this topic I guess. I personally like United a lot and have a lot of great flights with them, I was just going through some of the posts and there seems to be a "bad taste" in everyone's mouth. It's all relative I guess, with a company that large you are bound to have good and bad experiences. I just wonder what could have gone THAT wrong.

User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8124 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4796 times:

I love United's fleet and people as well and wish them nothing but the best. That said, their management is nothing I'm a fan of and improvement would be welcomed.


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinePotomac From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 713 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4785 times:

on this forum, UA seems to be the prevailing airline that people dont like, for whatever reason. whether they had a bad experience, dont like the management, or just support a competitor. i'd never admit that there isnt room for improvement, but i think a lot of the things UA is doing are positive and moving them in the right direction, and there is potential for them to turn out ok.

what's unfortunate is that the passion for hating UA and wishing their demise runs so strong that some people let their facts slip and post arguments based more on emotion that reality. if things do not go well for UA, it may cause these folks to let out a collective "yay" or "i told you so." yet the problem is that it would't be bad fjust or UA employees, but would have adverse effects on all of the flying public and the airline industry as a whole.


25 Beltwaybandit : Funny how people here speak on different tracks. I'm into airlines as an industry, and the quality of service, to me, is just one element in "judging"
26 UALPHLCS : Nothing is wrong with United that isn't wrong with any other large corporation. You will see all kinds of criticism of United and airlines in general
27 Mog : I think that grey coloured planes remind me of old style gunboat diplomacy. That's not a good thing in this day and age. Maybe somebody should tell UA
28 Post contains images StevenUhl777 : UALPHLCS and Potomac: thanks for those posts...nice to see that there is some voice of reason on this forum. Potomac: welcome to my respected user lis
29 BlatantEcho : "Does he understand that in reality that word means he owns the means of production." If you mean "he" as a collective, then you are completely wrong.
30 Flybynight : I'm a long time UA flier, and I hope to be for many years, but I am curious what UA's average employee cost (salary + benefits ) and how many employee
31 Trayfam : There are a lot of good people working to make United better. Not withstanding, there have been, and still are some in management positions that aren'
32 Uadc8contrail : blatantecho, who u gonna bitch about when ual goes chapter 7???????the wall street guys that propped up jblu till the other day and jblu finally had a
33 WorldTraveler : StevenUhl, let's not be so biased we can't think straight. All of us on this board have biases. UAL Corp. has rarely been cited as one of the best-run
34 Airways6max : Because their service sucks, their flights are usually late, their cabins are like sardine cans, their staff is surly and rude. They are nowhere near
35 KaiTakFan : Airways6max... that post just shows how well educated and traveled you are on United. "Because their service sucks"... Really? sounds like just about
36 Post contains images MD11LuxuryLinr : I cant understand it. In the dozens of times I've flown on United I've never had any bad experiences. Maybe less than a handful of flights were a few
37 DLKAPA : I could flamebait by saying one word and one word alone: Frontier. I'm not gonna do that, just gonna say that TED flies the same routes as F9, same se
38 Paddy : I have to agree with Potomac on this issue. TED is a necessary response to what is going on in the market right now. I'm not sure if the timing is the
39 InnocuousFox : Maybe less than a handful of flights were a few minutes late, That's easy enough to do when you pad the heck out of your schedules. Notice all the tim
40 UnitedFirst : 3. Major strategic changes - IAD/ACA, Mexicana, Varig are all issues UA has to deal with; no other airline has as many major strategic changes happeni
41 UALPHLCS : Blatant echo you just don't get it. Capitalism IS NOT an ideology. To be very technical one can be a capitalist, owning a small buisness and therefore
42 InnocuousFox : Hmpf. I'm not partisan. Far from it. It sounds like YOU might be a bit gung ho, however. *shrug* Anyway, the only problem that I have with United has
43 UAL777CONTRAIL : In the last three weeks I have flown from DEN-SNA-DEN and returning yesterday from a DEN-ORD-GSO-IAD-DEN trip, we were late 22 minutes. The is between
44 BlatantEcho : "The marlet [sic] TRIED to kill UA but we wouldn't let it." #1, you're very biased. #2, if the market tried to kill a company, in whatever grandiose l
45 Post contains images InnocuousFox : What he said...
46 Greg : What's wrong with them? Not sure....flew them internationally twice last month. Same great service in biz class. Same great attitude with employees.
47 DeltaMD11 : UALPHLCS, I generally tend to agree with a lot of the stuff you say here on the forums, but this is by FAR the stupidest thing that you have ever cont
48 Chuj : DeltaMD11 and BlatantEcho, Don't you see the point UALPHLCS is trying to make? He DOES NOT really think that CO and HP should close shop. He says this
49 DeltaMD11 : Sorry, didn't catch the sarcasm. Probably can attribute that to the fact that I haven't slept since Friday due to this sinus infection.
50 InnocuousFox : The bottom line is that no airline is safe as long as they can be held hostage by the unions. If the unions want more money, it has to come from the a
51 Benjamin : I am also secretly hoping the flight is operated by LH as it is codeshare. In that case at least I know I will have a pleasant flight. Well, I do NOT
52 StevenUhl777 : WorldTraveler: Though a continued supporter of United, my head is not totally in the clouds, and I still believe the following must occur in order for
53 FA4UA : UALPHLCS Welcome to my respected user list, but please for your own sake use spell check man! Love us or hate us, one thing is for sure... UA evokes a
54 WorldTraveler : UnitedFirst, Varig is doing very poorly financially and is precarious (although the assessment depends on the month). A Varig/TAM merger would not be
55 UALPHLCS : Chuj, Thank you for pointing out that the argument I gave about CO and HP was the same argument Blatantecho is using for why UA should just close. For
56 InnocuousFox : "Maybe it's because underneath it all UA has everything it needs to be the greatest carrier on earth." And yet... ?
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