All4BWI From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 105 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (10 years 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5890 times:
AirTran could probably make a CMH hub work, but they'd probably prefer opening a hub further west. There's already a lot of hubs up in the general area of CMH too. US in PIT...CO in CLE...DL in CVG...NW in DTW. If the concern is that you have to go down south to fly between the east coast and midwest, why would they open a CMH hub when they already have a nice focus city at BWI? AirTran will serve 12 destinations from BWI by mid-February, and they're not planning on slowing their BWI expansion anytime soon.
B4real From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2602 posts, RR: 6 Reply 3, posted (10 years 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5820 times:
No way yet, even though I really like CMH.
All4BWI says it well in that the 'region' is hub good, and even add ORD and MDW to that list.
CMH does have high O&D, which is good for a LCC business model.
What CMH also has is a lot of competition in that market. When I lived in Upper Arlington and Hilliard, I loved CMH for great fares, market driven routes (not just to hubs), and good accessibility, though the security lines could be bad at times.
Cleco From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 569 posts, RR: 4 Reply 4, posted (10 years 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5745 times:
CMH is pretty open right now, but I'm not sure how much of a difference that makes. I agree with All4BWI, in the sense that their are already a lot of hubs in the region. Yet, part of the game is making more product available than will be bought.
When you look around at who has hubs in the region it is continental, Northwest, USAir, Delta. None of these are low cost carriers.
Usairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3237 posts, RR: 7 Reply 5, posted (10 years 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5679 times:
Airtran is molding together its route network, with ATL as the main hub, BWI and DFW as mini-hubs, and FLL, MCO, and PHL as focus cities. I think the only other potential focus city/mini hub is probably a west coast city.
FlyCMH From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 2267 posts, RR: 11 Reply 7, posted (10 years 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5626 times:
For the reasons previously mentioned, Columbus would most likely not fit into AirTran's route map as a hub. There are about 8 gates left open by America West. However I don't think that, or Columbus' O/D, is enough to convince AirTran to place a hub here. On the other hand, I could see AirTran with service to Columbus, despite its proximity to Dayton. The O/D between CMH and ATL is pretty significant, even with Delta charging pretty hefty fares on the route. During the Valujet days, the airline did incredibly well in Columbus, sending 5 DC-9s daily to ATL, in addition to 2 flights to IAD. Lastly, the airport is offering quite a few dollars in marketing and other incentives for new airlines in Columbus. So I think they could make a go at it.
Zippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5131 posts, RR: 13 Reply 8, posted (10 years 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5584 times:
Interesting question. We (Air Tran) will be taking delivery of 737-700 and 800 series birds brand spanking new from Boeing. In a little over 6 months, these beauties will take to the skies and be able to get you to and from the left coast non-stop from BWI, PHL and our other east coast cities. I feel it would be cool if we opened up stations in Reno and Seattle. Stay tuned!
RockyRacoon From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 945 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (10 years 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5578 times:
I think CMH could be quite succesful as well, maybe not a hub but definetely focus city. Maybe a few once a day flights to the west: LAX, SFO, LAS (once the 737-800s are onboard) along with some east coast routes on the 717-200s. People would definetely flock to CMH from CLE and CVG. I know DAY and CAK are already established, but with CMH you might see more business men and others (the ones who don't care about fares) who would enjoy some direct flights. Forgive my ignorance, but how big of a threat would Southwest be? How many flights do they currently operate?
FlyCMH From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 2267 posts, RR: 11 Reply 10, posted (10 years 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5566 times:
I really don't think Southwest would be too much of an issue. Several of the destinations they serve from CMH, mainly BWI and MCO, are seriously underserved now with the departure of America West. For example, America West had 200 daily seats to BWI that filled up constantly, and mostly with O/D pax. Since their depature, no one has come in to fill the gap. Besides the point though, Southwest currently has 16 daily flights to 8 destinations from Columbus operating from 3 gates. Here's the breakdown:
Luv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12024 posts, RR: 50 Reply 11, posted (10 years 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 5490 times:
Considering the ever increasing presence they have a CAK, I think that will be the focus city in the area more than CMH. Think about it, in CAK you do not have any other LCC's to compete with and it is close enough to draw from both the CLE market and even PIT. So no to CMH being a focus or a hub.
Elwood64151 From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 2477 posts, RR: 6 Reply 12, posted (10 years 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 5467 times:
While CAK is providing great O&D revenue, I doubt it will become a focus city.
AirTran is expanding westward. They need a coast-to-coast hub somewhere in the midwest or great plains. I have mentioned my biased preference for MCI, but I have doubts that will happen, either.
CMH does not strike me much better. It is a competitive market and while it has good O&D numbers, it is far too close to BWI to be used effectively, I think. BWI will become the northeast hub, connecting PA, NY, New England, MD, VA, WV, and OH to the midwest and west, while ATL will continue as the southern hub.
The question is, where will their coast-to-coast hub be? DFW is adding flights, but the competition from DL and AA will be fierce! STL already has significant presence from WN, and AA is still technically a hub carrier. IND is too small, as are BMI, MLI, DAY, DSM, LIT, ICT, OMA, OKC, and TUL. MEM is dominated by NW, and is too close, really, to ATL. MKE looks good, but YX is holding on to those gates, and FL will need them sooner rather than later. It's also a trifle small. MCI has its gate/connection issues that seriously hampered so many airlines that have tried there (though this could be easily fixed if the city would just listen to me!!! ). DEN is dominated by F9 and UA, and has its winter-ops issues. BNA is next-door to ATL, and too far east and south for a coast-to-coast hub.
The only cities left are MSP, DTW, CVG, CLE and ORD, each of which is dominated by another carrier that FL would have to fight for market share.
So, where can FL go for a coast-to-coast hub?
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
Luv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12024 posts, RR: 50 Reply 13, posted (10 years 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 5435 times:
I agree that MCI will never happen, Joe Leonard having been previous with EA and EA having had an MCI hub that I do not see him repeating.
CAK keeps getting more service, LGA is now offered. Florida service also and of course ATL. Also like I pointed out it does not have another LCC to compete with, as CMH, CLE, ORD and DTW already has a LCC carrier in place.
MSP and the Humphrey terminal might work tho NW will fight tooth and nail to protect there fortress hub. Also to a small extent you do have Sun Country there.
To this day I believe that NW beefed up service out of MKE for 2 reasons, one because of the weak state of YX and two as a preemtive strike so AirTran would not come in first and offer more service.
I do think you will see DFW as a mini hub of sorts that will offer connection of a limited scope and it will rely more on the huge O & D market that is already there.
Luv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12024 posts, RR: 50 Reply 18, posted (10 years 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 5421 times:
I am not 100% sure of the reason tho 9-11 played into the reason or was used as the reason for leaving the hub, and of course the financial conditions of HP sure did not help at the time. And in CMH you do have WN, in CAK you have FL and out of DAY you have FL as well and PIT is only a little over 2 and 1/2 hours from CMH. A lot of choices in the area. It never really was a strong hub for HP, used to connect LGA and DCA from the west coast since they could not offer non-stops at the time from those cities/hubs.
Capt078 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 421 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (10 years 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 5379 times:
although not specific to columbus, this is an old topic. given airtran's recent westward expansion, and columbus' relative proximity to baltimore, i do not think we will see an airtran hub in columbus. my bet is a future airtran hub will be west of the mississippi river, most likely milwaukee. also, one of the reasons america west pulled out of columbus was there was not enough o&d traffic or demand at cmh. no reason to think airtran would have any more success.
Capt078 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 421 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (10 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 5292 times:
you are absolutely correct. sorry about that. can you believe i made it to the state finals of the national geographic, geography bee in the 4th grade? actually, i got distracted when writing that, and wasn't thinking. if it makes you feel better, i'm ashamed. nevertheless, i do think that milwaukee potentially has a future with airtran. we'll see. if not, i would think they would pick a city at least west of the great lakes, if not west of the mississippi (see that, i covered my ass on that one).
FlyCMH From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 2267 posts, RR: 11 Reply 24, posted (10 years 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 5262 times:
America West's decision to pull the Columbus hub was mostly likely a mix of the after-effect of September 11 and the then-impending war in Iraq, combined with their new fare structure and Delta's strong-arm tactics to further weaken HP in Columbus.
As I've said before, prior to September 11, 2001, the hub was going to be expanded greatly. The plans were already drawn up for 6 more regional jet bridges to be implemented in Concourse B, and flights were supposed to be boosted eventually up to 90 daily flights.
In the time between September 11, 2001 and February 11, 2003 (the day America West announced the hub closure), there really wasn't any indication that the hub might be closing until a month or so before the announcement. But many underlying aspects signaling the doom of the hub were apparent
First off, it is VERY clear now that America West's new fare structure does not support the continues use of small regional gets (50 seats and less). Mr. Doug Parker has claimed before that the CRJs (200 and 700) do not work in the America West system, hence why America West has dumped the CRJ-700, increased CRJ-900 utilization, and lessened the number of CRJ-200s in operation. Since HP's CMH operation proportionally was very RJ-heavy, full planes were not guaranteeing profitable flights with the new fare structure.
Secondly, the airline industry was again in a state of disarray in the weeks before the conflict in Iraq. Airline stocks were back to near-Sept. 11 lows and the future was cloudy at best. I would think that this also prompted the airline's decision to not take the financial risk, and go ahead and shut the hub down.
Thirdly, Delta sensed blood in the water in Columbus, and quietly ramped up and stream-lined operations in CMH. Delta had always been neck-and-neck with America West in Columbus, and this time was ready to deal the final blow. Delta initiated service to Washington National from Columbus, which had traditionally been a good route for America West. Delta also started a codeshare agreement with Chautauqua Airlines, which also served as America West Express at the time, and place RJs on the Florida route. This trumped America West's service by offering double the frequency HP offered to Orlando and flying no empty first class seats, whereas HPs Airbusses to Florida left with first class occupied either by upgrade recipients or non-revvers.
Given these factors, I do think the main one that lead to the hub's demise was the new fare structure. Yes, the hub consisted mostly of RJ flights. But proportionally, it was no different to Continental's Cleveland hub. Apply the same fare structure in CLE and you have the exact same dilemma as was faced in CMH, but with more flights. That and America West truly had no interest in maintaining their presence out east. Certain routes such as BWI, BOS, and YYZ filled consistently, but instead of focusing in on the faults and repairing them, they decided to abandon the investment altogether.
Lastly, given today's airline system in the United States, I quite plainly do not think that a full-fledged hub in Columbus could work. HOWEVER, I am positive that a sort of "focus city," capitalizing on high O/D markets from Columbus with a strictly low fare attitude, could definitely work. My example would be ATA's operations in Indianapolis. Demographically and geographically, Indianapolis and Columbus are VERY similar cities: both have a metro population of roughly 1.8 million, both are rapidly growing new cities, both are state capitals, in the center of their respective states, and are located in the Midwest. While ATA might not have a full-fledged hub in IND, they have an excellent route system from IND, flying to high O/D destinations such as Los Angeles, Cancun, Orlando, Ft. Lauderdale, and New York with all coach 737-800 and 757-200/300 aircraft. I have no doubt in my mind that a similar set up could work in Columbus. There just needs to be an airline that is willing to invest in such an endeavor.
25 InnocuousFox: Uh... wow. Not bad at all. I hadn't thought about comparing it to IND.
26 Luv2fly: The number of destinations offered non stop out of CLE is way more than what HP ever offered from CMH. True we might have are shares of RJ flights, we
27 Luv2fly: Also 9-11 was in 2001 and the war in Iraq was not intil 2003!
28 FlyCMH: The number of destinations offered non stop out of CLE is way more than what HP ever offered from CMH. Well, one would assume that if there are more f
29 Midway2airtran: My three guesses... ORD ORD oh, did I mention ORD. Cheers!
30 Capt078: InnocuousFox: this time i meant exactly what i typed. the "great lakes region" is generally considered to be the lands east of wisconsin to the wester
31 DCA-ROCguy: On the other hand, I could see AirTran with service to Columbus, despite its proximity to Dayton. The O/D between CMH and ATL is pretty significant, e
32 Jimbobjoe: Indianapolis and Columbus are VERY similar cities: both have a metro population of roughly 1.8 million, both are rapidly growing new cities, both are
33 Coronado990: I would very much call Ohio the Midwest. Ohio was christened the "Midwest" probably in the 1700s long before the the U.S. was a coast-to-coast nation
34 Luv2fly: Ohio and Michigan are very much part of the Midwest.
35 InnocuousFox: "I doubt st. louis will be chosen...too much american airlines pressure, and a history of failures. that also goes for kansas city, but at least with
36 Luv2fly: STL already has a LCC WN is firmly in place in STL, also MCI.
37 Capt078: the midwest is pretty much considered to stretch from western new york state until about minnesota. just listen carefully for the nasal midwestern acc
38 Luv2fly: Both AirTran and Southwest took BWI from US thanks to US's financial condition, they both came in at about the same time, WN has been in both STL and
39 Capt078: Luv2fly: no offense, but you are absolutely incorrect. southwest was in baltimore well before airtran. southwest started service out of baltimore in 1