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Could CMH Be A Good Hub For Airtran?  
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6609 posts, RR: 20
Posted (11 years 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6779 times:

Armchair CEO time again!

Would a CMH hub for Airtran work? As of now, when flying between the east coast to the midwest, you have go down south. How many empty gates at CMH since HP pulled back>?  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
70 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirdude66 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (11 years 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6681 times:

FL flies to CAK, DAY, PIT

CMH...no chance!

They could do the same in Dayton if it was even a thought.


User currently offlineAll4BWI From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (11 years 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6674 times:

AirTran could probably make a CMH hub work, but they'd probably prefer opening a hub further west. There's already a lot of hubs up in the general area of CMH too. US in PIT...CO in CLE...DL in CVG...NW in DTW. If the concern is that you have to go down south to fly between the east coast and midwest, why would they open a CMH hub when they already have a nice focus city at BWI? AirTran will serve 12 destinations from BWI by mid-February, and they're not planning on slowing their BWI expansion anytime soon.


To God be the glory
User currently offlineB4real From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2661 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (11 years 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6604 times:

No way yet, even though I really like CMH.

All4BWI says it well in that the 'region' is hub good, and even add ORD and MDW to that list.

CMH does have high O&D, which is good for a LCC business model.

What CMH also has is a lot of competition in that market. When I lived in Upper Arlington and Hilliard, I loved CMH for great fares, market driven routes (not just to hubs), and good accessibility, though the security lines could be bad at times.



B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently offlineCleco From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 569 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (11 years 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6529 times:

CMH is pretty open right now, but I'm not sure how much of a difference that makes. I agree with All4BWI, in the sense that their are already a lot of hubs in the region. Yet, part of the game is making more product available than will be bought.

When you look around at who has hubs in the region it is continental, Northwest, USAir, Delta. None of these are low cost carriers.



EMBRY-RIDDLE BABY
User currently offlineUsairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3473 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (11 years 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6463 times:

Never.

Airtran is molding together its route network, with ATL as the main hub, BWI and DFW as mini-hubs, and FLL, MCO, and PHL as focus cities. I think the only other potential focus city/mini hub is probably a west coast city.


User currently offlineAirways6max From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (11 years 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6409 times:

Only if Air Tran decides to build an extensive route network throughout the Midwest. The competition is already fierce--right All4BWI?

User currently offlineFlyCMH From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 2293 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (11 years 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6410 times:

For the reasons previously mentioned, Columbus would most likely not fit into AirTran's route map as a hub. There are about 8 gates left open by America West. However I don't think that, or Columbus' O/D, is enough to convince AirTran to place a hub here. On the other hand, I could see AirTran with service to Columbus, despite its proximity to Dayton. The O/D between CMH and ATL is pretty significant, even with Delta charging pretty hefty fares on the route. During the Valujet days, the airline did incredibly well in Columbus, sending 5 DC-9s daily to ATL, in addition to 2 flights to IAD. Lastly, the airport is offering quite a few dollars in marketing and other incentives for new airlines in Columbus. So I think they could make a go at it.

User currently offlineZippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5539 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (11 years 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6368 times:

Interesting question. We (Air Tran) will be taking delivery of 737-700 and 800 series birds brand spanking new from Boeing. In a little over 6 months, these beauties will take to the skies and be able to get you to and from the left coast non-stop from BWI, PHL and our other east coast cities. I feel it would be cool if we opened up stations in Reno and Seattle. Stay tuned!

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2003/photorelease/q3/pr_030701g.html



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlineRockyRacoon From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 984 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (11 years 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6362 times:

I think CMH could be quite succesful as well, maybe not a hub but definetely focus city. Maybe a few once a day flights to the west: LAX, SFO, LAS (once the 737-800s are onboard) along with some east coast routes on the 717-200s. People would definetely flock to CMH from CLE and CVG. I know DAY and CAK are already established, but with CMH you might see more business men and others (the ones who don't care about fares) who would enjoy some direct flights. Forgive my ignorance, but how big of a threat would Southwest be? How many flights do they currently operate?

Tim


User currently offlineFlyCMH From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 2293 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (11 years 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6350 times:

I really don't think Southwest would be too much of an issue. Several of the destinations they serve from CMH, mainly BWI and MCO, are seriously underserved now with the departure of America West. For example, America West had 200 daily seats to BWI that filled up constantly, and mostly with O/D pax. Since their depature, no one has come in to fill the gap. Besides the point though, Southwest currently has 16 daily flights to 8 destinations from Columbus operating from 3 gates. Here's the breakdown:

MDW: 5
BWI: 2
TPA: 2
MCO: 1
BNA: 2
STL: 1
PHX: 1
LAS: 2


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 11, posted (11 years 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6274 times:

Considering the ever increasing presence they have a CAK, I think that will be the focus city in the area more than CMH. Think about it, in CAK you do not have any other LCC's to compete with and it is close enough to draw from both the CLE market and even PIT. So no to CMH being a focus or a hub.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineElwood64151 From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 2477 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6251 times:

Luv2fly:

While CAK is providing great O&D revenue, I doubt it will become a focus city.

AirTran is expanding westward. They need a coast-to-coast hub somewhere in the midwest or great plains. I have mentioned my biased preference for MCI, but I have doubts that will happen, either.

CMH does not strike me much better. It is a competitive market and while it has good O&D numbers, it is far too close to BWI to be used effectively, I think. BWI will become the northeast hub, connecting PA, NY, New England, MD, VA, WV, and OH to the midwest and west, while ATL will continue as the southern hub.

The question is, where will their coast-to-coast hub be? DFW is adding flights, but the competition from DL and AA will be fierce! STL already has significant presence from WN, and AA is still technically a hub carrier. IND is too small, as are BMI, MLI, DAY, DSM, LIT, ICT, OMA, OKC, and TUL. MEM is dominated by NW, and is too close, really, to ATL. MKE looks good, but YX is holding on to those gates, and FL will need them sooner rather than later. It's also a trifle small. MCI has its gate/connection issues that seriously hampered so many airlines that have tried there (though this could be easily fixed if the city would just listen to me!!!  Big grin). DEN is dominated by F9 and UA, and has its winter-ops issues. BNA is next-door to ATL, and too far east and south for a coast-to-coast hub.

The only cities left are MSP, DTW, CVG, CLE and ORD, each of which is dominated by another carrier that FL would have to fight for market share.

So, where can FL go for a coast-to-coast hub?



Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 13, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6219 times:

Elwood64151

I agree that MCI will never happen, Joe Leonard having been previous with EA and EA having had an MCI hub that I do not see him repeating.

CAK keeps getting more service, LGA is now offered. Florida service also and of course ATL. Also like I pointed out it does not have another LCC to compete with, as CMH, CLE, ORD and DTW already has a LCC carrier in place.

MSP and the Humphrey terminal might work tho NW will fight tooth and nail to protect there fortress hub. Also to a small extent you do have Sun Country there.

To this day I believe that NW beefed up service out of MKE for 2 reasons, one because of the weak state of YX and two as a preemtive strike so AirTran would not come in first and offer more service.

I do think you will see DFW as a mini hub of sorts that will offer connection of a limited scope and it will rely more on the huge O & D market that is already there.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineInnocuousFox From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6208 times:

"AirTran is expanding westward. They need a coast-to-coast hub somewhere in the midwest or great plains. I have mentioned my biased preference for MCI, but I have doubts that will happen, either."

They could pick up the old Vanguard gates if they are still available or they could pick up some of the slack at STL where TWA/AA is pulling out.



Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
User currently offlineInnocuousFox From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6205 times:

From what I understand, CMH may be a good place for an airline to just start a completely RJ hub to serve that whole area. Who? I don't know...


Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 16, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6203 times:

InnocuousFox

That is what HP had for the most part and they left!!!!



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineInnocuousFox From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6197 times:

"That is what HP had for the most part and they left!!!!"

Yeah, but is that because of CMH or HP?



Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 18, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6205 times:

I am not 100% sure of the reason tho 9-11 played into the reason or was used as the reason for leaving the hub, and of course the financial conditions of HP sure did not help at the time. And in CMH you do have WN, in CAK you have FL and out of DAY you have FL as well and PIT is only a little over 2 and 1/2 hours from CMH. A lot of choices in the area. It never really was a strong hub for HP, used to connect LGA and DCA from the west coast since they could not offer non-stops at the time from those cities/hubs.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineCapt078 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6163 times:

although not specific to columbus, this is an old topic. given airtran's recent westward expansion, and columbus' relative proximity to baltimore, i do not think we will see an airtran hub in columbus. my bet is a future airtran hub will be west of the mississippi river, most likely milwaukee. also, one of the reasons america west pulled out of columbus was there was not enough o&d traffic or demand at cmh. no reason to think airtran would have any more success.

User currently offlineInnocuousFox From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6132 times:

"west of the mississippi river, most likely milwaukee"

Grab a map, sir.



Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
User currently offlineCapt078 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6076 times:

InnocuousFox:

you are absolutely correct. sorry about that. can you believe i made it to the state finals of the national geographic, geography bee in the 4th grade? actually, i got distracted when writing that, and wasn't thinking. if it makes you feel better, i'm ashamed. nevertheless, i do think that milwaukee potentially has a future with airtran. we'll see. if not, i would think they would pick a city at least west of the great lakes, if not west of the mississippi (see that, i covered my ass on that one).


User currently offlineInnocuousFox From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6080 times:

"if not, i would think they would pick a city at least west of the great lakes"

Lake Superior would be insulted, sir.  Smile

Anyway, I don't think MKE has enough gate space to support a hub other than the presence that Midex has there. I'm serious... look to STL and/or MCI.



Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
User currently offlineInnocuousFox From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6038 times:

"Armchair CEO time again!"

Sure... be my guest!



Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
User currently offlineFlyCMH From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 2293 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6046 times:

Luv2Fly:

America West's decision to pull the Columbus hub was mostly likely a mix of the after-effect of September 11 and the then-impending war in Iraq, combined with their new fare structure and Delta's strong-arm tactics to further weaken HP in Columbus.

As I've said before, prior to September 11, 2001, the hub was going to be expanded greatly. The plans were already drawn up for 6 more regional jet bridges to be implemented in Concourse B, and flights were supposed to be boosted eventually up to 90 daily flights.

In the time between September 11, 2001 and February 11, 2003 (the day America West announced the hub closure), there really wasn't any indication that the hub might be closing until a month or so before the announcement. But many underlying aspects signaling the doom of the hub were apparent

First off, it is VERY clear now that America West's new fare structure does not support the continues use of small regional gets (50 seats and less). Mr. Doug Parker has claimed before that the CRJs (200 and 700) do not work in the America West system, hence why America West has dumped the CRJ-700, increased CRJ-900 utilization, and lessened the number of CRJ-200s in operation. Since HP's CMH operation proportionally was very RJ-heavy, full planes were not guaranteeing profitable flights with the new fare structure.

Secondly, the airline industry was again in a state of disarray in the weeks before the conflict in Iraq. Airline stocks were back to near-Sept. 11 lows and the future was cloudy at best. I would think that this also prompted the airline's decision to not take the financial risk, and go ahead and shut the hub down.

Thirdly, Delta sensed blood in the water in Columbus, and quietly ramped up and stream-lined operations in CMH. Delta had always been neck-and-neck with America West in Columbus, and this time was ready to deal the final blow. Delta initiated service to Washington National from Columbus, which had traditionally been a good route for America West. Delta also started a codeshare agreement with Chautauqua Airlines, which also served as America West Express at the time, and place RJs on the Florida route. This trumped America West's service by offering double the frequency HP offered to Orlando and flying no empty first class seats, whereas HPs Airbusses to Florida left with first class occupied either by upgrade recipients or non-revvers.

Given these factors, I do think the main one that lead to the hub's demise was the new fare structure. Yes, the hub consisted mostly of RJ flights. But proportionally, it was no different to Continental's Cleveland hub. Apply the same fare structure in CLE and you have the exact same dilemma as was faced in CMH, but with more flights. That and America West truly had no interest in maintaining their presence out east. Certain routes such as BWI, BOS, and YYZ filled consistently, but instead of focusing in on the faults and repairing them, they decided to abandon the investment altogether.

Lastly, given today's airline system in the United States, I quite plainly do not think that a full-fledged hub in Columbus could work. HOWEVER, I am positive that a sort of "focus city," capitalizing on high O/D markets from Columbus with a strictly low fare attitude, could definitely work. My example would be ATA's operations in Indianapolis. Demographically and geographically, Indianapolis and Columbus are VERY similar cities: both have a metro population of roughly 1.8 million, both are rapidly growing new cities, both are state capitals, in the center of their respective states, and are located in the Midwest. While ATA might not have a full-fledged hub in IND, they have an excellent route system from IND, flying to high O/D destinations such as Los Angeles, Cancun, Orlando, Ft. Lauderdale, and New York with all coach 737-800 and 757-200/300 aircraft. I have no doubt in my mind that a similar set up could work in Columbus. There just needs to be an airline that is willing to invest in such an endeavor.


25 InnocuousFox : Uh... wow. Not bad at all. I hadn't thought about comparing it to IND.
26 Luv2fly : The number of destinations offered non stop out of CLE is way more than what HP ever offered from CMH. True we might have are shares of RJ flights, we
27 Luv2fly : Also 9-11 was in 2001 and the war in Iraq was not intil 2003!
28 FlyCMH : The number of destinations offered non stop out of CLE is way more than what HP ever offered from CMH. Well, one would assume that if there are more f
29 Post contains images Midway2airtran : My three guesses... ORD ORD oh, did I mention ORD. Cheers!
30 Capt078 : InnocuousFox: this time i meant exactly what i typed. the "great lakes region" is generally considered to be the lands east of wisconsin to the wester
31 DCA-ROCguy : On the other hand, I could see AirTran with service to Columbus, despite its proximity to Dayton. The O/D between CMH and ATL is pretty significant, e
32 Jimbobjoe : Indianapolis and Columbus are VERY similar cities: both have a metro population of roughly 1.8 million, both are rapidly growing new cities, both are
33 Coronado990 : I would very much call Ohio the Midwest. Ohio was christened the "Midwest" probably in the 1700s long before the the U.S. was a coast-to-coast nation
34 Luv2fly : Ohio and Michigan are very much part of the Midwest.
35 InnocuousFox : "I doubt st. louis will be chosen...too much american airlines pressure, and a history of failures. that also goes for kansas city, but at least with
36 Luv2fly : STL already has a LCC WN is firmly in place in STL, also MCI.
37 Capt078 : the midwest is pretty much considered to stretch from western new york state until about minnesota. just listen carefully for the nasal midwestern acc
38 Luv2fly : Both AirTran and Southwest took BWI from US thanks to US's financial condition, they both came in at about the same time, WN has been in both STL and
39 Capt078 : Luv2fly: no offense, but you are absolutely incorrect. southwest was in baltimore well before airtran. southwest started service out of baltimore in 1
40 Luv2fly : Well in this case I am wrong, sorry.
41 Capt078 : no reason to be sorry, but thank you for acknowledging your mistake. you certainly were correct that both airtran and southwest (and others) have capi
42 Luv2fly : Well yes and no, I think STL is to close to ATL, which is what AA is now realizing, STL to close to ORD and DFW, MCI Joe Leonard who was previously wi
43 Mikey711MN : I don't think MKE would be entirely out of the question as I think there'd be ample gate space for at least a mini-hub operation. Moving DL over to E
44 Post contains images InnocuousFox : "Also just a thought these 737's have the range to do coast to coast, so other then the 4 gates at DFW, does AirTran even need a West Coast hub?" Only
45 Luv2fly : OK devils advocate, why do they have to offer SEA to LAX?
46 InnocuousFox : "OK devils advocate, why do they have to offer SEA to LAX?" They don't. The point being, without a western hub, the only traffic that they can hope to
47 Prinair : The should come to ELP and establish a southwest hub... A. Lots of O/D traffic from the ELP, CJS and southern New Mexico area. B. Large demand of seat
48 InnocuousFox : Again, you almost hate to put a hub on an edge of the country like that. Centrally located is better for domestic travel.
49 Prinair : It can be "on the edge" but if the demand is there.... Besides it is centrally located for a perfect southern west to east hub.
50 Elwood64151 : They could pick up the old Vanguard gates if they are still available or they could pick up some of the slack at STL where TWA/AA is pulling out. What
51 InnocuousFox : " OMA without even looking at population figures" OMA is one of the busiest per capita airports in the country. We have 21 gates and park 22-25 a/c he
52 Notdownnlocked : OK I'm playing the devils advocate here Jim(DCA-ROC Guy) , but please show me in cold hard numbers (not your agenda slanted opinion) where you have ac
53 Post contains links Jimbobjoe : Coronado990: You're absolutely correct...the term "Midwest" was used to define the original states of the Northwest Territories. As the country moved
54 Post contains images Midway2airtran : "And in who's terminal shall they put the gates? AA's or UA's?" Elwood64151 ORD is more than AA and UA even with their hubs. Also with the ORD expansi
55 InnocuousFox : There's also an issue with limited landing slots at ORD. They are running the max during much of the day.
56 DCA-ROCguy : OK I'm playing the devils advocate here Jim(DCA-ROC Guy) , but please show me in cold hard numbers (not your agenda slanted opinion) where you have ac
57 Elwood64151 : OMA is one of the busiest per capita airports in the country. We have 21 gates and park 22-25 a/c here overnight... AirTran has more gates on its one
58 Luv2fly : Elwood64151 Good explanation of the region. Tho Minnesota does actually touch Lake Superior so we could have them in the Great Lakes region and Ohio s
59 Post contains images 727LOVER : I thought ORD was no longer slot constrained.
60 InnocuousFox : "AirTran has more gates on its one concourse in ATL than you do in your whole airport. Expansion is fine, but that's at least three or four years away
61 InnocuousFox : "I thought ORD was no longer slot constrained" Yeah, but you can only drop the pipes on the concrete so fast before they start bouncing off each other
62 FlyCMH : I am also interested in how you come to the conclusion that WN is misguided as they only have twice daily flights from CMH to BWI and not six or seven
63 Scottb : Just as a point of reference, CMH-BWI traffic averaged 483 passengers (both directions combined) per day in 4Q02. HP had 47% of that, which works out
64 Post contains links InnocuousFox : This is why you can't add more flights to ORD (Link to another thread)
65 Capt078 : Elwood64151: couple of things. first, i'm a midwesterner originally (grand rapids, mi), and grew up with the accent. it is nasal and certainly disting
66 Ouboy79 : Elwood...Just a quick comment about discounting OKC based on your idea of the terminal. It is currently under a massive renovation and expansion. The
67 InnocuousFox : I would have to support the idea that existing capacity is better than airport expansion. Not only is there a time factor involved in waiting for expa
68 Elwood64151 : Ouboy79: Even still, you're talking about 25 gates. That's one terminal @ MCI. Existing unused or underutilized gate space is far better than gate spa
69 Post contains links ScottB : FlyCMH- Southwest's management must have been listening to you; the third CMH-BWI frequency was announced this morning: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/03
70 FlyCMH : Thank you much for the link, ScottB. I'm definitely pleased to hear about Southwest (finally) ramping up service here in Columbus a bit. The third BWI
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