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Near Miss Above O'Hare  
User currently offlineChgoan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 230 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4236 times:

By Jon Hilkevitch
Tribune transportation reporter
Published December 10, 2003, 1:27 PM CST

Two aircraft approached O'Hare International Airport on a collision course during Tuesday night's rainy weather, the Federal Aviation Administration said today.

The Mexicana and United Airlines planes were "nose to nose" and rapidly closing on each other when the United pilot, alerted to the danger by an onboard collision-avoidance system, descended abruptly to avoid the other plane, officials said. No injuries were reported.


The incident occurred about 6:45 p.m. during bad weather and is being investigated as a possible pilot error by the Mexicana pilot flying an Airbus A319, said FAA spokesman Tony Molinaro.

"The air-traffic controller told the (Mexicana pilot) to turn left. The plane turned right instead and flew in front of (the United plane)," Molinaro said.

The planes were 1 mile apart and closing when the United plane diverted, Molinaro said. A minimum 3-mile horizontal spacing is required between planes on the final approach to O'Hare.

The controller working the planes on his radar screen saw the impending disaster and radioed the United pilot to climb immediately. The United pilot, who at about the same time was warned of the conflict by the onboard collision-avoidance technology, reported back that he was already descending.

"The controller, a seasoned veteran, was very shook-up afterwards," said Ray Gibbons, who represents the controllers union at the FAA's facility in Elgin that directs aircraft arriving and departing Chicago-area airports.

The incident marked the latest scare in the Chicago region's busy skies.

The FAA last week released data showing 24 errors by air-traffic controllers had occurred this year at the Elgin facility, up from four errors in 2002. Twelve additional errors were made by O'Hare tower controllers this year, compared to three controller errors in 2002.

Controllers attributed the increase in errors to a rapidly rising number of flights marking the rebound of the aviation industry, and to the airlines' practice of scheduling large volumes of flights at the same time.

Copyright © 2003, Chicago Tribune



17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineInnocuousFox From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4133 times:

Ugh. Not at all pleasant news.


Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 34
Reply 2, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4040 times:

"The air-traffic controller told the (Mexicana pilot) to turn left. The plane turned right instead and flew in front of (the United plane)," Molinaro said.
*****

Why is the slant on this article on ATC when it is clear that the Mexicana pilot did the opposite of what he was told. No matter how good ATC gets, it is not going to count for much if the pilots don't listen, don't understand or just don't care.


User currently offlineInnocuousFox From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4034 times:

"Why is the slant on this article on ATC when it is clear that the Mexicana pilot did the opposite of what he was told. No matter how good ATC gets, it is not going to count for much if the pilots don't listen, don't understand or just don't care."

While I agree, the point is that in CHI APP airspace, there is less room for error. Pilots miss directions all the time and it goes unnoticed by the rest of us.



Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
User currently offlineFutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2602 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3984 times:

At least everybody is okay, it could have been bad. I wouldnt blame the controller if the Mexicana 319 did turn right instead of left, those controllers get very busy sometimes.


Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlineScottysAir From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3982 times:

Yeah, that is very lucky pilot did make not miss with those plane and what is situation was going on at ORD today? I am disagrees with you guys about MX & UA pilot were trying to collapsed near of these plane and did not have any of the injuries either.

User currently offlineCO2BGR From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 558 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3953 times:

Again...A near miss is a hit...a near hit is when they miss each other

Fell much better now



There are too many self indulgent weiners in this town with too much bloody money" Randal Raines- Gone in 60 Seconds
User currently offlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4537 posts, RR: 41
Reply 7, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3925 times:

CO2BGR -  Insane

Further: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1286047/ See in particular replies 16 and 17.

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently offlineFutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2602 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3920 times:

Didnt George Carlin say something like that? Why doi they call it a near miss!? Its a near hit! If they collided it would be a near miss!...awww look, they nearly missed..."

just ahd to put that in.....sorry!

Glad everybody is safe however.



Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlineBobs89irocz From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 632 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3917 times:

Hm, i was at work at O'hare when that happend Tuesday night.....they weather was deffinitly IMC, OVC at about 800 feet.

****************

I dont know about you guys but i know here at O'hare since it is very busy almost all the time it is hard for a pilot from outside the US to understand a fast passed ATC'er. I listen to my scanner at ORD all the time and i know first hand that those MX guys dont pay attention much at all, i dont know what makes them so different but sometimes they have to be told 3 times to do something. LOT is another airline that has some problems with the english language. This accident doesnt surprize me one little bit, ORD ATC'ers are AWSOME, they do very very good work but i know they can make mistakes just like anyone else (including pilots...(MX)), i strongly believe this has nothing to do with the controller doing something wrong but the MX pilot just not understanding or paying attention.


User currently offlineCO2BGR From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 558 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3908 times:

VirginFlyer:
Yes I know it has been mentioned before.

FutureUalPilot:
Yes it was Carlin who said that.



There are too many self indulgent weiners in this town with too much bloody money" Randal Raines- Gone in 60 Seconds
User currently offlineLOT767-300ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3890 times:

"LOT is another airline that has some problems with the english language."

You must be joking. I listen to ORD ATC all the time and NEVER have heard a problem. The LOT pilots speak better English than almost all the international carriers who arent from English speaking countries..


User currently offlineILoveORD From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 220 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3842 times:

Galvanair,

Do you even read the Tribune? First, not only is your post absurd in blaming Republicans (tongue in cheek n/a with such a politicized post), but it's even more ridiculuos considering the fact that it's well known among the reading public that the Chicago Tribune is a rather liberal paper with noticeable leftist tilt; just read the articles (if possible) from a moderate (again, if possible) point of view...you (or others) will see, or already know, what I mean....



Backhanding the left into submission, one activist judge at a time.
User currently offlineBobs89irocz From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 632 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3821 times:

LOT767-300ER.....LOT only has 2 flights a day into ORD, sometimes only 1 a day. I listen to ORD ATC almost 5-8 hours a day (at work at ORD) Iberia, Lot, MX, Korean all have to have orders repeated to them on more accations than any other airline. Not get me wrong, i like LOT and there pilots, i have communicated with there pilots several times (refueling there aircraft) and it is hard to understand them alot with that strong polish accent. Alot of my friends here in Chicago are polish and have been here from between 8-13 years and sometimes you cant understand them, nor do they understand us. I want you to know im not bashing oneone by any means just stating what i have noticed and last time i check i could do that.


ILoveORD- I 100% agree with you.....

[Edited 2003-12-11 01:39:29]

User currently offlineILoveORD From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 220 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3687 times:

I'm going to have to agree with LOT767 on this one Bob. I've listened to ORD ATC with my friend's scanner quite often in the past, and I've caught a few of their approaches with it as well, and I have NOT noticed any less command of the language than other foreign pilots (additionally, let me point out that ORD ATC can be difficult to understand even for English speaking pilots and listeners). I have flown LOT several times and in all instances, F/A's spoke good English (on par with other European carriers I've flown on), and in some instances, more grammatically accurate than certain native English speakers--I imagine the same goes for their pilots, who likely communicate ATCers in English very often as they fly around Europe and internationally. Additionally, being from Chicago, I also have several Polish friends (some who immigrated to the U.S. recently) and while their accent is noticeable, it is not any more difficult (or easy for that matter) to discern then accents I've heard other non-native speakers, such as from my French-speaking relatives and German-speaking persons I've come in contact with.

I think you're stereotyping and/or generalizing; I understand some new speakers are difficult to understand, but to make gross claims about the Polish speaking population in general, is just that--gross. I think you're difficulty in understanding Polish pilots or people stems more from you're lack of mastery of the language, as is evidenced by your (colloquial) written command of English, then from actual communications.

[Edited 2003-12-11 01:54:30]


Backhanding the left into submission, one activist judge at a time.
User currently offlinePositive rate From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 2143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3603 times:

I think it's unfair to bash all Mexican pilots based on this incident. I listen to my scanner a lot and i have heard this kind of thing happen with pilots who speak very fluent English with major airlines. From listening to the scanner i've noticed out of the foreign airlines Cathay Pacific is very good with communication and rarely need instructions repeated to them. Singapore,Garuda, Malaysia Airlines, Vietnam Airlines, Lauda sometimes need instructions repatead several times due to their English language constraints.

User currently offlineTWAL1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 205 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3533 times:

I agree with Bob regarding LOT. I work directly with LOT pilots, face to face at ORD, and I can tell you they are difficult to understand as well as reluctant to cooperate in many manners. I guess they have some supreme status in Poland that doesn't count for squat here in ORD. The LOT web site even has pages dedicated directly to their pilots. It seems like these guys are great aviators even when they choose not to deice while every other guy around them does. I also have to add that LOT's operations at ORD are a complete disaster with that Worldwide Services who handles their operations.

By the way a near miss at ORD is very scary. Does anyone remember the near miss we had several years back with Air China Cargo and Korean Air 747's. Whew!


User currently offlineLOT767-300ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3005 times:

"LOT767-300ER.....LOT only has 2 flights a day into ORD, sometimes only 1 a day. I listen to ORD ATC almost 5-8 hours a day (at work at ORD) Iberia, Lot, MX, Korean all have to have orders repeated to them on more accations than any other airline. Not get me wrong, i like LOT and there pilots, i have communicated with there pilots several times (refueling there aircraft) and it is hard to understand them alot with that strong polish accent. Alot of my friends here in Chicago are polish and have been here from between 8-13 years and sometimes you cant understand them, nor do they understand us. I want you to know im not bashing oneone by any means just stating what i have noticed and last time i check i could do that."

Ive been here for 10 years, no accent whatsoever so its on a case to case (and age) basis. I talked to LOT pilots in English and rode jumpseat 2 times and had no problem understanding them talking to ATC in English.


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