Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Pax Saves Jetliner!  
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6760 posts, RR: 76
Posted (10 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 9129 times:

Now, this is a one in a million chance... and if it happened in the US, the 727 would have crashed.

A few days ago a colleague who flies for one of the local airlines here told me not to fly his airline's 727s... His reasons went as follows....

Last week in Manado/WAMM, there was cloud and poor visibility from 8000 down to 1000 ft. Due to the poor visibility, approaches to the airport was made through ILS runway 18 or VOR/DME runway 36, instead of the usual dual NDB approach for 36 (which requires an 80 degree left turn on finals).

According to my friend, the 727 opted to come in from the south for a VOR/DME 36. It meant commencing the approach 14NM from the airport, leaving the holding point at 6000ft, to join the long finals at 4700ft... With terrain sometimes more than 2000ft high on the initial approach.

The 727 descended straight to 2000ft early in order to try and go visual. Stuck in cloud with terrain concerns, the crew stayed at 2000ft instead of descending to the MDA (925ft). However, they then turned the plane to the right (East or North East), where there are 6550ft and 2500ft peaks about 5NM from the centerline.

A passenger who is an off duty pilot ran the cockpit and to his horror found that the crew were disoriented and lost situation awareness. Looking at the RMI, the passenger realised that the aircraft was heading to one of the peaks and convinced the Captain to climb to the west and try again.

The crew for the 727 were expats (as part of the wet lease) and had never flown into Manado in bad weather conditions. However, the actions the crew took was very dangerous.

Manado/WAMM is not exactly an easy airport to fly into. Runway 18/36 is surrounded by terrain on 3 sides. The South West being the only entry/exit without terrain problems.

Now, was the passenger/off duty pilot right? This in my opinion is one of those cases where an unlocked cockpit door saved many lives...

The airline has hushed the incident now and not even the locals from the airline know what the company is doing about this...

Any comments?

Mandala499


When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineInnocuousFox From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (10 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 8996 times:

Well, that's one isolated incident... hardly enough to make a case that everyone should be allowed unfettered access to the pit. I suspect that there are more than enough morons who "think" that they can give fantastic advice to the pit crew to make up for this situation.


Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
User currently offlineCanadianNorth From Canada, joined Aug 2002, 3389 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (10 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 8963 times:

Exaclty. Security fixes many problems, but also causes a few... Ever taken the time to think that maybe the yahoo trying to get into the cockpit could possibly NOT be a terrorist?



CanadainNorth



What could possibly go wrong?
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6760 posts, RR: 76
Reply 3, posted (10 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 8947 times:

I'm not saying access to the cockpit should be opened up... I'm just trying to say... DAMN THEY WERE LUCKY !!!!

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlinePiedmontGirl From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1124 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (10 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 8922 times:

This is not going to make anyone with two brain cells to bang together think the cockpit door should be left open for anyone to wander in an out.

If the pilots flying the plane didn't know where they were, how did a pilot sitting in the back know where the airplane was? Please.


User currently offlineMAS A330 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 8739 times:

Perhaps the pilot sitting in the back was more familiar with the terrain?

User currently offlineSuspen From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 156 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (10 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 8670 times:

Guys, Mandala499 wasn't saying cockpit doors should be left open. I'm sure he's hella smarter than that. :P It's just a unique incident and should be treated as such. Everyone on that flight was very lucky.

The passenger didn't know exactly where the plane was, he just realized they were going in the wrong direction. If he were familiar with the area it's not inconceivable that he recognized which approach they were trying, and that they shouldn't have made that big turn.



Tower: "Cessna xxxx, state your intentions", Cessna: "To become airline pilot"
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6760 posts, RR: 76
Reply 7, posted (10 years 7 months 3 hours ago) and read 8365 times:

MAS_A330 got it right I think... the "Passenger" is an F28 Captain who's been flying in and out of Manado throughout his 20 year career, while the 727 pilots haven't since they're foreign contracted crew. Anyways...

Suspen... Thanks... I am NOT saying cockpits should be free access for everyone... thanks for clarifying that Big grin

OK... here's an update I got...

Nothing about the 727 pilots yet. The passenger who intervened was a F28 pilot of the same airline positioning to Manado. That's probably why the cabin crew did not do anything when he rushed to the flight deck, they probably recognized him.

More details on what happened.

The passenger assumed that from Tondano VOR the aircraft would head to about 340 and to MD NDB and then perform the dual NDB approach for runway 36 (Leave MD at 078 to PN NDB and then make 80 degree left to runway 36)...

The passenger was sitting on the left window. After the aircraft made a right turn to about 080 and descending rapidly to 2000ft, the passenger did not recognize the terrain (should have been low land, sea and a 2100ft peak, but with poor visibility he just didn't see the sea nor the city of Manado which he should be flying over.)

The passenger ran to the flight deck and asked the pilots... "Where are we?"

"We don't know!" was the answer.

He looked at the RMI and realised the aircraft was not going towards the airport...

Now it does sound far fetched, but do have a look at the following charts...

VORDME36...


NDB Circling 36...


Manado Airport...


I got a map from somewhere else, and was described the events by someone who flew as an F/O for the "passenger" on tuesday...

Red Line: VOR/DME 36 and NDB 36 Circling paths.
Green Line: What the "passenger" thought the aircraft was doing after TDO VOR... until he realised what happened.
Purple Line: The path of the aircraft, post TDO position is based on the description...



So what do you guys think? Should these guys be fired? Was the F28 Captain correct in intervening? Unfortunately, I can't say the airline, but given the types, you guys can guess who it is.

Unfortunately in Indonesia, most of these incidents are hushed up... everyone has a skeleton in the closet... even foreign airlines (incl SQ) and the CAA! Only now the government is beginning to investigate (watch out Lion Air!) abnormalities...

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 850 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (10 years 7 months 2 hours ago) and read 8284 times:

Let the 727´s burn in Mojave!!
Too old to trot......

Michael/SE



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineClipperNo1 From Germany, joined May 1999, 672 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (10 years 7 months 2 hours ago) and read 8262 times:

Excuse me, I'm not a pilot but a few questions come into my mind (Please excuse all un-professionalism):

-What was the ATC doing at them time, knowing of terrains surrounding the approach and probably seeing 727 of path?

- Would the weather conditions described above fall under CAT III conditions?
Is the particular 727 or the airport capable of running CAT III ops?



"I really don't know one plane from the other. To me they are just marginal costs with wings."� Alfred Kahn, 1977
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6760 posts, RR: 76
Reply 10, posted (10 years 7 months 2 hours ago) and read 8200 times:

No Radar at Manado.
It was overcast/undercast or broken >6/8ths for 1000 - 8000...

We don't have anything above CatII here Big grin So, no CatIII, the ILS for Manado is ILS18 and CAT I only.

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineZak From Greenland, joined Sep 2003, 1993 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (10 years 7 months ago) and read 8084 times:

"Was the F28 Captain correct in intervening?"
he saved his own life and that of others, after all that cant be too wrong :P
interesting approach indeed, good that the pilot intervened otherwise it the code WAMM would have fit the approach.



10=2
User currently offlineLymanm From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7974 times:

I am utterly confused by a few things in this scenario. First of all, why would this passenger/F28 driver expect the 727 to fly from TDO direct to the NDB and *immediately* start the approach? There is a hold to enter the approach, where one has to fly at least 3/4 the way around the hold. Going from a 340-350 degree heading *directly* into the Final Approach Course of 78 degrees would require a VERY steep, sudden right bank and is not prescribed in the approach. A 90 degree Final Approach Course entry is difficult enough for a Cessna approaching at 90KIAS, let alone a 727 at 150+.

Secondly, I find it highly unlikely that any crew qualified to fly a 727 anywhere would suddenly lose track of what approach they were conducting. There is no similarity between the VOR and the NDB approach. There is no NDB on the Final Approach Course on the step down, it's all done by NDB. Why would the crew a) have the MD/PN NDBs tuned in and b) suddenly/randomly decided to follow it, or where they "thought" it was?

Finally, you say it was "It was overcast/undercast or broken >6/8ths for 1000 - 8000...". I know nothing about Indonesia and the weather reporting system they have, but I find it incredible they are able to measure the tops of clouds! They only have this information in North American via pilot reports, and by no means are they frequently done or temporally accurate. The 1000 ft base, I can live with, but if it was broken 6/8, then presumably they'd be able to have somewhat of an idea where they were...and that they were heading for a mountain, not an airport! The whole point about mentioning the tops is that the crew would have had no difficulty seeing the mountain in question if the cloud layer topped off well below the mountain peak (6000ft+).

Regarding the issue of the F28 pilot storming into the flight deck - perhaps the most unprofessional thing to do by a non revving crew EVER. He does not have the benefit of situational awareness, as he has no instruments. One cannot navigate from a passenger seat in the clouds. What if he thought the crew was performing the NDB approach, and madly ran to tell them to turn left to intercept the Final Approach Course, only to find that they were safely following the straight in VOR approach? In that case, he could have KILLED the crew if they'd listened to him - they would have hit that 2000ft mini mountain just NE of the field or others.

This story just isn't plausible in my mind. Factors I'm considering: that this information is 3rd hand to you and that the local Indonesian F28 driver has an axe to grind with expat crews "stealing" his flying, and as a result is fabricating/embelishing stories to jeopardize their safety record. Check the facts (or in this case, the reliability of the facts) before you spew out uninformed rhetoric.



buhh bye
User currently offline174thfwff From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7840 times:

"Now, this is a one in a million chance... and if it happened in the US, the 727 would have crashed."

Care to tell us why it would have crashed in America but not in some third world nation?

-174thfwff


User currently offlineTsentsan From Singapore, joined Jan 2002, 2016 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7751 times:

"Now, this is a one in a million chance... and if it happened in the US, the 727 would have crashed."

Care to tell us why it would have crashed in America but not in some third world nation?


I guess its cos the flight deck door would be locked, and they wouldnt open it in any situation, and the chances of it crashing would be more than probable.



NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineHmmmm... From Canada, joined May 1999, 2104 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7653 times:

A fictional I-have-a-friend-that-told-me-this-story. A little bit too polished. And the pertinent maps, a nice touch, makes the story a pre-packaged item, ready to go. Nice try.




An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
User currently offlineBritmex From Mexico, joined Nov 2000, 207 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7528 times:

Hmmmmm:

Interesting post but I`m still wondering. If the pilots were lost or felt they were losing situational awareness couldnt they been vectored? I was taught in flight school that it is better to ask for help rather than get killed. So far nobody is perfect and I have never seen a controller having fun with lost pilots. They have always been helpful with me, specially during my first solos.

cheers!

britmex



Aeromexico, la linea aerea que va para arriba
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6760 posts, RR: 76
Reply 17, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7474 times:

Britmex...
No radar at Manado... so if they asked for help ATC would ask for their bearing and distance from a beacon...
------
"Hmmmm.."...
No this is not a pre-packaged thing. The skepticism one gets from "I have a friend that told me this story" is understandable, but if I have the charts for the airport and a travel map to accompany the description, it doesn't mean that I made it up or that this is a prepackaged fictional story!

I just took the charts I have and photographed them and posted it up hoping those reading it would have a picture of the terrain, regardless of whether they believe the incident or not. I posted this mainly to ask whether the F28 driver was right or wrong in intervening.
------
Lymann,
Confused? So am I.
I missed a line... The F28 driver expected the 727 would go to a VOR/DME 36 approach... or proceed from the TDO VOR to MD NDB... TDO is the common point for the Standard Arrivals into Manado. If one is going for the NDB 36 Circling, one would go to TDO VOR first and then go to MD and enter a holding pattern there... there's no Radar in Manado, so they have to do it that way.

I don't have the luxury of making fancy graphics to draw in the lines the aircraft would have taken... I'm sorry for my basic line slapping skills!

As to your second point, it is unlikely that the 727 was going to go for the dual NDB approach... The F28 driver thought the aircraft would be doing that, or do the VOR/DME straight in... so when the aircraft banked right, something was wrong. There is no reason for the aircraft to make the right turn... Anyways, I've sat on the right hand seat, next to someone who has 10,000hrs flight time on one approach and he suddenly lost his situational awareness. Fortunately, he decided to go for a miss and start again. There have been cases where crews have lost situational awareness and went into terrain. CFITs still happens unfortunately.

Regarding the weather, the ceiling was a guess given by the F28 driver, not from meteorological report. And yes, it was a guess... I wasn't there, so I'm just passing what was said to me.

The F28 driver storming into the flight deck? Well, what you said was the whole point in me putting this incident up... Thank you... you answered my question.

As to the local vs. expat thing, well, airlines here have failed to get locals to want to fly the 727. Most people here don't want to move to a type whose end of useful life is in sight. Besides, the foreign crew are under an ACMI deal for the aircraft... it's not a case of the airline hiring them instead of locals... the truth is, there are very few local 727 pilots, that they're with another airline that has a few of them. This airline only has ONE 727. That other airline has trouble getting people to move to the 727, mainly because here, airlines are reluctant to pay for type ratings, so most pilots are reluctant to go on the 727 out of their own pockets! (and also to go back to be current on their previous type, out of their own pockets again)... That's how it works over here unfortunately...
----

To be honest, if the 727 did end up heading for a mountain, I think the F28 driver was jumpseating the ride!

On a lighter note...
A 90 degree Final Approach Course entry is difficult enough for a Cessna approaching at 90KIAS, let alone a 727 at 150+.

How about the 80 degree left turn onto the runway? Something to experience or avoid? Big grin

Mandala499

[Edited 2003-12-27 19:53:23]


When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7390 times:

No sorry, this would have not happened in America. Our pilots are trained and would not simply loose track of a mountain! So this guy just ran up and opened the door and nobody did anything and the door wasn't even locked? That is not a plane that I want to be on. What is to stop a terrorist? What is to stop a little kid playing around! NOTHING Your friend must have a good imagine and for you to try to put an anti American spin on it you made yourself sound like you know nothing...


/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6760 posts, RR: 76
Reply 19, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7345 times:

UAL747DEN,
Sorry but I have to laugh this off.
1. Pilots are ALL trained not to loose track of where they're at... but unfortunately, it happens.  Sad
2. In what way is this an anti-American thread?
3. Did I say locking the cockpit door was wrong? I suggest you don't fly on a Cessna402, Twin Otter, or any small prop without a cockpit door/wall then. Big grin
4. Welcome to airliners.net Big grin Lighten up!

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7264 times:

Mandala499
No it doesn't! A pilot should NEVER have to depend on a passenger to save the aircraft from running into a mountain! In most countries this would never happen, passengers are not allowed to just run into the pit and tell the pilot what he or she needs to do. I don't know of any pilot that would ever follow the directions of a passenger that just stormed the pit! This story is crazy and hopefully untrue.
Thank you for the welcome, and I don't need to lighten up im not stressing over this I just don't want anyone to think that this is something that could happen on their flight. A pilot doesn't take orders from some irate passenger a pilot is a highly trained and confident person that you can trust you to get you to wherever you are going to safely.



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7228 times:

a pilot is a highly trained and confident person that you can trust you to get you to wherever you are going to safely

Dude, you really need to do some travel in third world countries! Heck, even a flight or two on some questionable North American carriers would have sufficed.


User currently offlineRmenon From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Jun 2001, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7169 times:

No sorry, this would have not happened in America. Our pilots are trained and would not simply loose track of a mountain!

Riiiight - so the crew of American Airlines 965 in Cali Colombia 1995 were Indonesian???
http://aviation-safety.net/database/1995/951220-1.htm


User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6760 posts, RR: 76
Reply 23, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7136 times:

UAL744DEN...
1. The "passenger" was a Captain with better familiarity with Manado and from the same airline. So it's not just any passenger. And he was not irate at the time.

2.No sorry, this would have not happened in America. Our pilots are trained and would not simply loose track of a mountain!

2.a How about something similar... try American Airlines in Cali in 1995... "The aircraft crashed into terrain after the crew became disoriented while on approach to Cali. Contributing to the accident was the fact that after the activation of the GPWS, the crew applied full power and pitched up, but failed to retract the speedbrakes." Pilots of all countries ARE trained not screw up, but we're all humans.
2.b Now, I hope I do not have to resort to mentioning the nationalities of the 3 flight crew of the 727 involved...

----

Dude, you really need to do some travel in third world countries! Heck, even a flight or two on some questionable North American carriers would have sufficed.

Yeah, like TOWER AIR Big grin *Sorry, just can't resist!*

Mandala499
PS. NO, this is NOT an Anti-American thread.



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6760 posts, RR: 76
Reply 24, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7106 times:

Damn ! RMENON beat me to it!

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
25 Post contains images Mandala499 : He wasn't irate... he was very worried when he intervened. Irate? Maybe after landing... Anyways, Safe Flying & Happy Landings ! Mandala499
26 FlygirlHels : Just about anybody who flies regularly into an airport with just one approach gets to know what it should feel like.... I would expect especially a pi
27 EK345 : If my wife can't go shopping in nice stores she wont let me go so we stick to the more normal parts of the world! Damn! That is quite a strong stateme
28 Coronado990 : If my wife can't go shopping in nice stores she wont let me go so we stick to the more normal parts of the world! Now that's lacking situational aware
29 Spk : Thai Airways lost an A310 in KTM in a situation very familiar to this one. So, yes, even the qualified crew flying on a fairly modern aircraft can los
30 AAR90 : While anything is possible, the story as retold above sounds like either a highly embelished retelling of a relatively minor incident or an outright f
31 SCXmechanic : I've flown into WAMM before and thats no place to be fooling around. The volcanos around there are very scary! Landing on 36 you get a good view of a
32 Post contains images Mandala499 : Now... I just found out today, Manado VORDME36 is no longer valid. So the 727 pilots was not going to perform that approach. Foolish as it may seem, i
33 Post contains images Mandala499 : OK guys, I got the copy of the F28 driver's report to the airline. Here's a translation. ------ Date: 18 December 2003 Name & ID: Capt. YCL/80**** Pos
34 MD11Engineer : Loss of situational awareness can also happen at well built oout airports with a modern A/C: At the airport I work on there was an incident a few year
35 AAR90 : OK guys, I got the copy of the F28 driver's report to the airline. If you did not get it from the airline, you have what the F28 driver "claims" to ha
36 GARUDAROD : Could it be that the "Terrain" the Captain expected to see on the right side of the aircraft was what he saw on the left side, hence the rush to the
37 Mandala499 : AAR90: 1. Note the "(ed. ...)" which means I got this not from within the translation. 2. How does he know the Cruise Altitude? How about a P/A announ
38 Post contains images AAR90 : What makes you think I am defending the F28 pilot here? Nothing. I never said you were. Yes, more proof would be good for all of us. An investigation
39 GARUDAROD : Mandala499, I wasnt trying to criticize you mate. I know what the mentality is like among Managment sorts in Indo. I spent 11yrs working for GA and k
40 Hmmmm... : Mandala, you just won't give up on this one, will you. I can tell it's a story by your dramatic narration, alone. And since you are not that eloquent
41 Post contains images Bahadir : Very very interesting reading.. Thanks for sharing this with us Mandala. As far as "This would never happen in N. America" crowd, get over it. We are
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Ex. Stunt Man Saves Pax From Crashed A/C posted Fri Nov 21 2003 02:01:05 by Leviticus
RUMOR: Embraer Investigating A 200 Pax Jetliner posted Sun Feb 10 2002 15:30:49 by DeanBNE
Libyan Arab To Order 29 Pax/cargo Planes posted Mon Dec 11 2006 19:14:45 by Jimyvr
AA Saves $700M/Orders In 2007? posted Thu Dec 7 2006 22:06:13 by QQflyboy
China Airlines Hints Pax Flight To Stockholm posted Thu Dec 7 2006 07:48:52 by Jimyvr
How Many Pax In An All-economy Class 748? posted Wed Dec 6 2006 21:06:15 by LY777
Heathrow Starts Biometric PAX Scanning. posted Wed Dec 6 2006 13:10:07 by Cumulus
BA:Dead Pax Put Into First Class posted Tue Dec 5 2006 17:02:51 by LTBEWR
LH Tipped To Launch Pax 747-8 posted Tue Dec 5 2006 11:25:52 by Planemaker
Ilfc Switches A380F To Pax Version posted Mon Dec 4 2006 14:08:28 by Mptpa