Paddy From Taiwan, joined Jul 2003, 390 posts, RR: 0 Posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3886 times:
We all know that Northwest has been replacing their medium-long range fleet(DC-10's) with A330's but when will they be placing an order to replace their B742's? What will this order consist of? This has come up time and time again but mainly in other more general discussions. Let's focus specifically on the future of their long/ultra-long haul fleet.
I've read that when NW did a study awhile back on possible 742 replacements, the A345, A346 and B773ER were mentioned. What do you all think will happen? Anybody have any inside info? Anybody have a link to the report I'm referring to(I believe it was done by a senior pilot)?
FlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 15 Reply 1, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3849 times:
My wish is that NW gets used 744s from United. Northwest doesn't need to add another aircraft type to their fleet. In fact, the DC-10-30s will be around for a few more years yet, supplemented by the A332s & A333s. Just my two cents worth. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16306 posts, RR: 87 Reply 3, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3755 times:
I think NW will replace their 742s with additional A330s.
The 333 can cover many of the beach market routes and seats more passengers than most of their competitors 777s, and the 332 can fly virtually any route in their system while equalling the seating capacity of those same 777s.
I wouldn't expect the 345, 346, or 777 anytime in the near future, although I believe it to be possible some day.
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16306 posts, RR: 87 Reply 7, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3568 times:
It doesn't matter what the best one for one replacement is.
a) What makes you believe they need to maintain all that capacity?
b) What makes you believe they'd choose the 773ER over the 346?
Those arguments are moot however, I think NW will replace their 742 flying with additional 330 flying, in the combinations I mentioned, with 744s migrated through seasonally if required and available. No 777 or 340 required.
Azjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3629 posts, RR: 29 Reply 8, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3514 times:
I think that NW would be foolish to bank on 250 seat a/c replacing the 742s and their approx. 350 seat capasity. TRaffic levels will not be supressed forever and when they rebound, they'll be in the Pacific. Eventually, NW will need an a/c that would provide capasity inbetween the 250/300 seat 330s and the 416 seat 744s. What will it be? It will be the a/c that fits the mission best for NWA. FLeet comoonality, engine type, CASM, capasity etc... will all be factors. Not airbus or boeing. Not PTV or no PTV. Those are airliners.net and closed minded airline thoughts.
Rjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3468 times:
I can see a 7E7 order in the future.....the 7E7 is being described as the plane that will open up all sorts of new routes across the Pacific, just as the 767 did across the Atlantic....I would guess they will go for the 7E7 at some point...If they do that would make it easier for them to get 777s as well....
Of course if Airbus comes out with an A332NG, NW would be more likely to go for that (assuming its economics match the 7E7 which is a big if)
NWAA330 From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 206 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3457 times:
I agree with ZK-NBT that its not worth getting an entirly new a/c type to replace 6 a/c. But the truth is NW currently has over 20 742's (22 I think but they continue to write some off) but only 6 are currently used becuase of the capacity downturn in the pacific. Because, as Azjubilee pointed out, capcity will eventually come back they will need an aircraft that can support aprox. 350 pax. I think NW should order either 20 A346's or 773ER's (fleet comminality isnt really a factor when they have long haul Airbus and Boeing a/c) to fill the gap. Whether or not they actually do is highly debatable but if they do, knowing NW the final decision will come down to who offers the best deal. It would also be great if NW could pick up just a couple of UA's 744's to either restart DTW-PEK, DTW-SHA, or begin DTW-ICN once the market gets back on track.
Elwood64151 From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 2477 posts, RR: 7 Reply 13, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3403 times:
A better question than "What & when" is "why?"
NW doesn't need to order new aircraft. They're just barely making money, so they can probably stick with what they have for now, or replace the 742s (as has been suggested) with used 744s (maybe the UA lot?).
So I ask again: Why?
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
Azjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3629 posts, RR: 29 Reply 14, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3371 times:
The 742s serve a different mission than the 744s. They hold more people, plain and simple. The 742s are also less efficient being more gas guzzling and having a 3 person flight deck. They may only have 6 in actual scheduled rotation, but I believe 17 remain in the fleet. Many are freighters as well. Just because UA and NW both operate 744s with pratt engines doesnt mean aquiring some used from UA is an economically intelligent idea. So, they're used, so probably cheaper right? But then NW has to completely gut them and refurbish them into NW specs. THis includes standardizing everything. NW was a pioneer in standarzing EVERYTHING many years ago and still do this today. The cost of gutting and retrofitting the a/c to NW specs, in addition to the aquizition costs, may not prove cheaper in the long run. Cheaper than what you say? Exersizing the 2 options they have for new 744s from boeing. Not only are these factors an issue - but the capsity issue is important. NWA 744s hold 416 people, does nwa reall yneed that RIGHT NOW?
The 7E7 is targeted as a 200-250 seat a/c... hardly a candidate for a 742 replacement.
If I had to speculate... it would be between the 773ER or the 345/346. But - it all boils down to what will fit the mission best.
ZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5131 posts, RR: 11 Reply 16, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3292 times:
I don't get this.
What about all the A330's they have on order, what are these replacing? As far as I am aware most of the DC10's will stay in the fleet for another 5 years or so by which time all the A330's will have been delivered. So aren't these A330's going to be used for expansion the 332's on the Pacific and the 333's on the Atlantic. I mean they have still yet to take delivery of what about another 18 odd A330's? They may decide to replace the remaining 742's with these and maybe another few DC10's may leave say about 4, so actually the widebody fleet would potentially increase in Numbers. While they still have 17 742's in the fleet have they actually reduced Internationl flying? They have just placed narrow bodies in Asia.
I still don't think we will see a new type widebody order anytime soon, unless they say maybe add another couple of 744's or A330's.
RayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7860 posts, RR: 5 Reply 17, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3287 times:
In my humble opinion, I think NW may end up getting good condition ex-UA or ex-SQ 747-400's to replace their 747-200's in transpacific service. The only way NW will get the A340-600 is for Airbus to offer NW one heck of a maintanence package, including servicing the Rolls-Royce Trent 556 engines.
Azjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3629 posts, RR: 29 Reply 18, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3262 times:
Why bother posting... geez!! ZK - there are 24 330s on order which were intented to replace the DC10 fleet one for one. But now with the conversion of some -300s to -200s, the fleet look slike it's going to evolve into more than trans atlantic stuff. Those 24 330s cannot possibly replace the capasity that 22 DC10s and the 742s bring to the marketplace. So - something will need to happen. Do I need to put it in lights? There is a HUGE gap between the 250-300 seat A330s and the 403 seat 744s. Something has to fill the 100-150 seat gap. Why does everyone think that adding more 744s is the answer to the 350 seat market?
XFSU - my bad... thanks for the correction. I just got home tonight and have a ton of catching up to do. Got home from Hawaii Sun night and left Mon morning on a 5 day. I still owe you an explanation on LOA21G.
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16306 posts, RR: 87 Reply 22, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3133 times:
Like I've said, the chances of NW ordering the 773ER or the 346 is slim to none at this time.
Think about it:
United has no plane between the 744 and the 777, which is configured with far less than 300 seats internationally. NZ flies with no plane between the 767 and 747. British Airways flies 777s with a less than 300 seat count. Qantas only recently began adding planes bigger than the 767, and they're gonna be less than 300 seats when configured for regional service too!
NW's 333s are configured with more seats than a UA international 777, and the 332 will be comparable in seat quantity.
333s can fly most of NW's routes, with a 50 seat loss in capacity vs the 742. The 332 can fly ALL of NW's routes, with a 100 seat loss. Really, in a market where trimming capacity is good, these are acceptable margins of reduction.
Expect additional A330 flying with seasonal 744 service where applicable or additional frequencies where possible, and nothing else until the market experiences a massive recovery.
At that point, who knows. Believe me, I'd like to see NW operate a larger widebody too, but I doubt that's gonna be the case for a few years.
Rjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3086 times:
Just a few possibilites......They could be interested in a 777-200LRF...Just throwing out an idea.
Gigneil, I was wondering about that today....Most airlines replaced their 747 Classics with 777/A340s, but at a loss of capacity. Now that the 773ER and A346 are here, airlines have options for "true" 747 Classic replacements...albeit a few years late, it will be interesting to see which North American and European airlines jump back into this capacity category.