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NW Long-haul Order: When...and What?  
User currently offlinePaddy From Taiwan, joined Jul 2003, 390 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4465 times:

We all know that Northwest has been replacing their medium-long range fleet(DC-10's) with A330's but when will they be placing an order to replace their B742's? What will this order consist of? This has come up time and time again but mainly in other more general discussions. Let's focus specifically on the future of their long/ultra-long haul fleet.

I've read that when NW did a study awhile back on possible 742 replacements, the A345, A346 and B773ER were mentioned. What do you all think will happen? Anybody have any inside info? Anybody have a link to the report I'm referring to(I believe it was done by a senior pilot)?

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4428 times:

My wish is that NW gets used 744s from United. Northwest doesn't need to add another aircraft type to their fleet. In fact, the DC-10-30s will be around for a few more years yet, supplemented by the A332s & A333s. Just my two cents worth. Regards.


"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4372 times:

I agree with Flagship. Anyway, NW only has 6 operational passenger 742's left...these can easily be replaced by addl 744's...whether new or used.

NW will probably add some new/used 744F's to supplement/replace the 742F fleet in due course.

It would seem that NW's long haul needs can be met by the 744/333/332 combination with no A340/777 needed.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4334 times:

I think NW will replace their 742s with additional A330s.

The 333 can cover many of the beach market routes and seats more passengers than most of their competitors 777s, and the 332 can fly virtually any route in their system while equalling the seating capacity of those same 777s.

I wouldn't expect the 345, 346, or 777 anytime in the near future, although I believe it to be possible some day.

N


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12092 posts, RR: 18
Reply 4, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4264 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

I think NW will replace their 742s with additional A330s.

The A330 family have a maxium range of only 6,650 nm/12,300km. The 777 family has a maxium range 7,525 nm/13,937km.

The best plane to replace the 742 would be the 773ER as it has about the same amount of seats as the 742. The A330 family has about 100 less seats then the 777


User currently offlineThe Shadow From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4238 times:

This favourite topic again.

 Yeah sure


User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5311 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4233 times:

I don't normally post on NW posts but here goes my 2 cents.

I think with only 6 742's remaining these should be replaced with either 744's or 332's.

If they have any plans to startany ultra long haul routes maybe then the A345 should be considered otherwise I think just stick with the current mix of 744's and A330's for long haul.

Where would they fly additional aircraft at the moment anyway?

The A330 family has about 100 less seats then the 777.

The 333 actually will often seat more than the 772 with alot of airlines!


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4147 times:

It doesn't matter what the best one for one replacement is.

a) What makes you believe they need to maintain all that capacity?
b) What makes you believe they'd choose the 773ER over the 346?

Those arguments are moot however, I think NW will replace their 742 flying with additional 330 flying, in the combinations I mentioned, with 744s migrated through seasonally if required and available. No 777 or 340 required.



N


User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3905 posts, RR: 28
Reply 8, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4093 times:

I think that NW would be foolish to bank on 250 seat a/c replacing the 742s and their approx. 350 seat capasity. TRaffic levels will not be supressed forever and when they rebound, they'll be in the Pacific. Eventually, NW will need an a/c that would provide capasity inbetween the 250/300 seat 330s and the 416 seat 744s. What will it be? It will be the a/c that fits the mission best for NWA. FLeet comoonality, engine type, CASM, capasity etc... will all be factors. Not airbus or boeing. Not PTV or no PTV. Those are airliners.net and closed minded airline thoughts.



AZJ


User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4047 times:

I can see a 7E7 order in the future.....the 7E7 is being described as the plane that will open up all sorts of new routes across the Pacific, just as the 767 did across the Atlantic....I would guess they will go for the 7E7 at some point...If they do that would make it easier for them to get 777s as well....

Of course if Airbus comes out with an A332NG, NW would be more likely to go for that (assuming its economics match the 7E7 which is a big if)


User currently offlineNWAA330 From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 209 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4036 times:

I agree with ZK-NBT that its not worth getting an entirly new a/c type to replace 6 a/c. But the truth is NW currently has over 20 742's (22 I think but they continue to write some off) but only 6 are currently used becuase of the capacity downturn in the pacific. Because, as Azjubilee pointed out, capcity will eventually come back they will need an aircraft that can support aprox. 350 pax. I think NW should order either 20 A346's or 773ER's (fleet comminality isnt really a factor when they have long haul Airbus and Boeing a/c) to fill the gap. Whether or not they actually do is highly debatable but if they do, knowing NW the final decision will come down to who offers the best deal. It would also be great if NW could pick up just a couple of UA's 744's to either restart DTW-PEK, DTW-SHA, or begin DTW-ICN once the market gets back on track.

Regards,
NWAA330



To Fly is to Live.
User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4006 times:

It was my understanding that the choice for replacement was down to: more 744s, more A330s, or 777s? Can someone confirm this?

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3985 times:

The 346 is also being considered.

N


User currently offlineElwood64151 From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 2477 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3982 times:

A better question than "What & when" is "why?"

NW doesn't need to order new aircraft. They're just barely making money, so they can probably stick with what they have for now, or replace the 742s (as has been suggested) with used 744s (maybe the UA lot?).

So I ask again: Why?



Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3905 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3950 times:

The 742s serve a different mission than the 744s. They hold more people, plain and simple. The 742s are also less efficient being more gas guzzling and having a 3 person flight deck. They may only have 6 in actual scheduled rotation, but I believe 17 remain in the fleet. Many are freighters as well. Just because UA and NW both operate 744s with pratt engines doesnt mean aquiring some used from UA is an economically intelligent idea. So, they're used, so probably cheaper right? But then NW has to completely gut them and refurbish them into NW specs. THis includes standardizing everything. NW was a pioneer in standarzing EVERYTHING many years ago and still do this today. The cost of gutting and retrofitting the a/c to NW specs, in addition to the aquizition costs, may not prove cheaper in the long run. Cheaper than what you say? Exersizing the 2 options they have for new 744s from boeing. Not only are these factors an issue - but the capsity issue is important. NWA 744s hold 416 people, does nwa reall yneed that RIGHT NOW?

The 7E7 is targeted as a 200-250 seat a/c... hardly a candidate for a 742 replacement.

If I had to speculate... it would be between the 773ER or the 345/346. But - it all boils down to what will fit the mission best.


AZJ


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4194 posts, RR: 37
Reply 15, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3923 times:

Just a slight correction: NW 744's hold 403 people....


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5311 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3871 times:

I don't get this.

What about all the A330's they have on order, what are these replacing? As far as I am aware most of the DC10's will stay in the fleet for another 5 years or so by which time all the A330's will have been delivered. So aren't these A330's going to be used for expansion the 332's on the Pacific and the 333's on the Atlantic. I mean they have still yet to take delivery of what about another 18 odd A330's? They may decide to replace the remaining 742's with these and maybe another few DC10's may leave say about 4, so actually the widebody fleet would potentially increase in Numbers. While they still have 17 742's in the fleet have they actually reduced Internationl flying? They have just placed narrow bodies in Asia.

I still don't think we will see a new type widebody order anytime soon, unless they say maybe add another couple of 744's or A330's.


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8002 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3866 times:

In my humble opinion, I think NW may end up getting good condition ex-UA or ex-SQ 747-400's to replace their 747-200's in transpacific service. The only way NW will get the A340-600 is for Airbus to offer NW one heck of a maintanence package, including servicing the Rolls-Royce Trent 556 engines.

User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3905 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3841 times:

Why bother posting... geez!! ZK - there are 24 330s on order which were intented to replace the DC10 fleet one for one. But now with the conversion of some -300s to -200s, the fleet look slike it's going to evolve into more than trans atlantic stuff. Those 24 330s cannot possibly replace the capasity that 22 DC10s and the 742s bring to the marketplace. So - something will need to happen. Do I need to put it in lights? There is a HUGE gap between the 250-300 seat A330s and the 403 seat 744s. Something has to fill the 100-150 seat gap. Why does everyone think that adding more 744s is the answer to the 350 seat market?

XFSU - my bad... thanks for the correction. I just got home tonight and have a ton of catching up to do. Got home from Hawaii Sun night and left Mon morning on a 5 day. I still owe you an explanation on LOA21G.




AZJ


User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3810 times:

I totally agree......My guess is that it will come down to between the A346 and the 773ER.....And that will come down to which company has a better price.

It would be a huge victory for Airbus if they finally got a US major to operate the A340.


User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5311 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3784 times:

And do NW have any money?

Look at NZ and QF for example for years they operated quite successfully with a 150 seat gap between the 763 and 744!

Why don't they operate 2 different configurations of 744's? I really don't think they need anymore widebody types in the current fleet 747, DC10, A330.

What routes have NW dropped to need a different size aircraft? How many seats do the A333's hold? And how many will the A332 hold?


User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5311 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3769 times:

I'm not saying they won't order another type in a few years time, but seriously where are they going to fly another type?

What is their financial status? Are they making money?


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 22, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3712 times:

Like I've said, the chances of NW ordering the 773ER or the 346 is slim to none at this time.

Think about it:

United has no plane between the 744 and the 777, which is configured with far less than 300 seats internationally. NZ flies with no plane between the 767 and 747. British Airways flies 777s with a less than 300 seat count. Qantas only recently began adding planes bigger than the 767, and they're gonna be less than 300 seats when configured for regional service too!

NW's 333s are configured with more seats than a UA international 777, and the 332 will be comparable in seat quantity.

333s can fly most of NW's routes, with a 50 seat loss in capacity vs the 742. The 332 can fly ALL of NW's routes, with a 100 seat loss. Really, in a market where trimming capacity is good, these are acceptable margins of reduction.

Expect additional A330 flying with seasonal 744 service where applicable or additional frequencies where possible, and nothing else until the market experiences a massive recovery.

At that point, who knows. Believe me, I'd like to see NW operate a larger widebody too, but I doubt that's gonna be the case for a few years.

N


User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3665 times:

Just a few possibilites......They could be interested in a 777-200LRF...Just throwing out an idea.

Gigneil, I was wondering about that today....Most airlines replaced their 747 Classics with 777/A340s, but at a loss of capacity. Now that the 773ER and A346 are here, airlines have options for "true" 747 Classic replacements...albeit a few years late, it will be interesting to see which North American and European airlines jump back into this capacity category.


User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (10 years 8 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3622 times:

Well Dammit, I am disappointed in y'all, we went this far in the thread about Northwest replacing planes and the DC-9 replacement wasn't brought up yet.

25 Post contains images Paddy : Well Dammit, I am disappointed in y'all, we went this far in the thread about Northwest replacing planes and the DC-9 replacement wasn't brought up ye
26 ConcordeBoy : The 777 family has a maxium range 7,525 nm Wrong. The 777family's range offering far exceeds any other aircrafts'... up to 9,120nm.
27 Post contains images VSGirl : I would have thought that they would get more Airbus, but as KLM have shown, you never know Kimberly.
28 Rjpieces : VSGirl....as a VS A346 pilot maybe you can shed some light on the aircraft...How does VS like the bird? Any major problems with it? What plane do you
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