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328Jet Why Did It Fail?  
User currently offlineORDagent From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1
Posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4911 times:

I love the looks of the 328J! It was really unusual and had a load that the other RJ's could not match at that time. Why did the A/C die on the vine as well as Dornier?

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLearjet25 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 79 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4828 times:

I know one of the reasons is that it was significantly slower than the other jets, and I believe that it did not match the takeoff performance of the others. I am not positive but I believe that those are two reasons. Also, I don't think it carried as many pax as the other jets.

User currently offlineMYT332 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 9112 posts, RR: 70
Reply 2, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4794 times:

I remember seeing it at Farnborough once, impressed me a lot. Climbed like a rocket and was very quiet. Shame its dead.

-
Alex



One Life, Live it.
User currently offlineBeltwaybandit From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 495 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4786 times:

The bankruptcy of the manufacturer put the future of the type in doubt, which crushed the order book. It may rebound somewhat, but as indicated above, there are better performing aircraft available.

User currently offlineLearjet25 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 79 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4742 times:

Well at an airshow they will have minimum fuel and no pax...so it had better climb like a rocket!

User currently offlineRockyRacoon From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 984 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4719 times:

THey still climb like rockets when full, I see them all the time at cvg.


peace


User currently offlineLearjet25 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 79 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4674 times:

Well, I guess we all have differing opinions of exactly what a rocket climbs like. That's ok.

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4660 times:

ACA's dispatch reliability on the 328Jet has been 10% poorer than their other planes, and its the worst reliability of any plane in the DCI banner.

N


User currently offlineMYT332 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 9112 posts, RR: 70
Reply 8, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4624 times:

Learjet25,

If we're talking about Apollo1, it doesn't climb.
If were talking about The Challenger, it climbs good for a bit.
If were talking about say, The Endeavor, its climbs dam good.

I was referring to the Endeavor type. (Does that make sense??? lol)



One Life, Live it.
User currently offlineAerobalance From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 4683 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4502 times:

I've been on one from TOL-CVG, fully loaded and we took off like a scrambled fighter jet, I was smiling from ear to ear on the climbout. Nice little plane - I imagine that it would be better utilized by an airline that needs an aircraft for short field operations.


"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
User currently offlineLearjet25 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 79 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4404 times:

I'm sorry, I am talking about a climb at MGTOW, not necessarily with a full cabin, but absolutely the max t/o weight. I know that it probably climbed well, but I know people who fly them and, I have flown on them. Not really the most impressive for me. My friends say that they are almost dogs when they are heavy. Not fully doglike, but not that great either. This is all I will say, but I'm used to climbing more like 4-8,000 fpm. So I guess my perspective is slightly skewed. Also, I don't think that Dornier cruises at anything above .68 or something in that range. I'm done now. I will not reply to this post again, to save everyone from me annoying them, or is it too late?

User currently offlineBaw2198 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 637 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4334 times:

I've had the pleasure of working a few of these over the last year doing charter work in and out of KALO. They climb out (at least this one did, privately owned) at about 3500- 4500ft. a min. But filed speed on cruise was only 378kts. I think that they were the slowest of the RJ's on the market but one of the best for payloading and short field T/O.


"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green
User currently offlineAvt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4254 times:

They were cool, but they were a derivative of a failed aircraft, the 328, which didn`t live up to it`s performance promises. Also the 328 was so bad the launch customer gave the entire fleet back. Not a good sign! Add to that the capacity of 36- 37 pax, and whats the point?

User currently offlineBoo25 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4086 times:

I think its an ugly little b***er! Looks like a Bae146 gone wrong!

I was intriguied though how in its development it was 'upgraded' from a prop with all the associated systems development and fuselage/pressurisation angle?!!



User currently offlineXJRamper From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2473 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4027 times:

Im not sure if its the same company, but is this the same as the Envoy?

XJR



Look ma' no hands!
User currently offlineB2707SST From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 1369 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3991 times:

Yes, the Envoy 3 is the bizjet version of the 328JET.

The 328 isn't quite dead yet - the new owner, AvCraft, is working on restarting production, although some assemblies may be transferred to eastern Europe to cut costs. AvCraft is also mulling completing development of the 428JET stretch, which Fairchild-Dornier halted several years ago - apparently the cancellation penalties helped drive it into insolvency.

The 328JET is a neat little aircraft, and although it's not as fast as larger RJs, its short-field performance beats any other airliner's. I'd like to fly one sometime, but they're mostly deployed on ACA's east-coast runs.



Latest news (Dec. 15):

AVCRAFT PRESIDENT SAYS 328JET PRODUCTION TO START SOON

The new owner of the Dornier 328JET - AvCraft Aviation - predicts restarting production of regional aircraft in the "near term" now that it's sold all but one plane of the 18 white-tails the company acquired when it bought rights to type and production certificates of the smallest jet produced by defunct airframer Fairchild Dornier.

AvCraft President Ben Bartel told reporters Thursday in Washington, D.C., his company could build about 54 planes per year in two factory shifts and 70 using three shifts. He contends building 200 aircraft would make the 328JET program "viable."

Suppliers also have begun building 328JET spares and production parts. Bartel estimated the value of 328JET spares at $ 120-$ 140 million and production parts "north of" $ 100 million.

Citing contract obligations, Bartel couldn't identify operators who have committed to the combined 45 orders and options AvCraft has logged for the 328JET, but noted his company hasn't garnered firm orders from new airlines. Data from aircraft tracker Airclaims show Air Vallee, Gandalf, Great Plains, Hainan, Midwest, Tyrolean and Welcome Air fly 328s. Air Omega, based in Augsburg, Germany, ordered two planes in May.

AvCraft continues to hammer out some service issues with the 328JET, including problems with the plane's electrical systems. Bartel did note shortcomings in the 328JET's range and speed, but said on trips of a "thousand-plus" miles it's about eight minutes behind the Embraer ERJ-135, adding the 328JET had the "volume of a Gulfstream."

Bartel was in Washington to announce a deal with BAE Regional Aircraft for spares, storage, distribution and logistics covering 328JETs and 328 turboprops in North, Central and South America.

AvCraft plans to house $ 150 million in spares at BAE Regional Aircraft's Herndon, Va., facility, starting with two shipments this month. BAE Regional Aircraft Senior Vice President of Customer Support David Speirs said AvCraft's spares would use about 30 percent of the company's existing space in Herndon.

In a second stage of the agreement, AvCraft will route customer orders through to BAE in Herndon for shipment. Later, BAE and 328JET customers will communicate directly for orders and shipping.

--B2707SST



Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
User currently onlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2980 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3961 times:

I am in agreement with B2707SST here. The 428Jet fiasco with Skyway/Midwest Express (at the time) did absolutely nothing to help the company out. It could even be argued that potential customers became wary of Fai-Dor because of the ordeal, further hurting the 328Jet and any family that may have resulted.

T.J.



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4166 posts, RR: 36
Reply 17, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3897 times:

The 328JET did not fail, not as the Do 328-100 did. That the two launch customer withdrew was not much Dornier´s fault: a) one went bankrupt and b) the second merged into an airline which had a 50-seat RJ requirement which the 328JET couldn´t fulfill.

What really hurt the 328JET was the 428JET disaster which costed endless money and even more requtation. Many airlines were at that time thinking about ordering the 428JET, including Air Wisconsin, often in tandem with the 328JET. However the cancellation made the328JET as a stand-alone unattractive.

The 328JET is not dead as the article shows, it is currently merely stopped and pre-production is already back on track with suppliers having restarted their part production. It takes sometime until these parts will all be in Oberpfaffenhofen and final assembly can restart.

What the article doesn´t not is, that not all white-tails have been sold to airline customers but are Envoy 3s as well. Out of these 17 sold white-tails 8 have gone to Hainan Airlines, which leaves 9, and one has been sold to Aero-Dienst, making it 8 left which are undisclosed.

The 428JET could be restarted if enough customer interest has been expressed and when a launch order has been placed. However I don´t see this at the moment.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders



Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
User currently offlineORDagent From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3777 times:

Thanks for the input folks. This takeover by another company scares me. Does anybody remeber adamaircraft?

User currently offlineBaw2198 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 637 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3690 times:

ORDagent


Adam aircraft: what happened? I know they designed the a500 piston and then came out with the 700 which was the jet powered derivitive. Did they go bankrupt?

Baw2198



"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green
User currently offlinePilotNtrng From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 897 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3641 times:

hey ORD,


I have to disagree with ya on the load factor on the 328 jet. The Do 328 and the jet version cannot hold that much at all. With a heavy fuel load and close to max pax, the cargo hold has to be thinned out significantly. Granted the t/o performance of the 328 jet is very impressive, I think it was doomed to fail due to the popularity of the ERJ's and CRJ's.



Booooo Lois, Yaaaa Beer!!!
User currently offlineBeltwayBandit From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 495 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3569 times:

Adam Aircraft is doing fine. Great management and great products. They are coming out with a twin-boom tail twin-jet, and push-pull prop.

User currently offlineSRD737NG From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 136 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3509 times:

Flying-Tiger-

I believe you may mean Atlantic Coast Airlines, not Air Wisconsin when it comes to the Dornier Jet orders. ACA already had 30 of the airplanes flying on the Delta side, and had taken delivery of 2 of an ordered 30 more to replace the Jetstream 41's on the United side when they went belly up. ACA hadn't ordered the 428 yet, but they were very interested in it up until the program ended. I never heard or read anywhere that Air Whisky was going to order any 328 or 428 Jets.

The 328 Jet is a hell of a climber, even at MGTOW. It will outclimb any other RJ out there today, but then have to wave at the CRJ's and ERJ's as they cruise by them enroute. The Dornier is also a very comfortable ride for pax. As a 6 foot guy, this airplane fits me way better than the CRJ or the ERJ 135-145. I hope the new owners are successful with the production of this aircraft, it is perfect for those smaller, underserved communities on the east coast where a 50 seater may be too much.


User currently offlineB2707SST From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 1369 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3476 times:

According to Flug Revue, ACA actually ordered 30 428JETs, along with 25 328JETs and 55 options for either aircraft, on 13 July 1999. An additional 30 328/428 options were taken on 9 September of that year.

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FR428JET.htm

The loss of the 428JET left its younger sibling an orphan and caused major damage to Fairchild-Dornier's credibility, in addition to huge fees and penalties from airlines and contractors. I think the 528/728/928 program might have been more successful had the 428JET flown, as confidence in the company would have increased instead of plummeting. If the 728 had flown last summer as scheduled, it could have been a leading contender for the Star order (Lufthansa CityLine had already signed for 60 + 60, GECAS had ordered 50 and announced a LOI for 100 more).

Another major factor in FaiDor's failure was its allegedly terrible customer service. The 328JET's dispatch reliability problems have already been mentioned, and I have heard that Horizon got rid of its very young 328 turboprop fleet because they were tired of poor support from Dornier. Hopefully AvCraft (and Fairchild-D'Long, if the 728 program survives) will be able to resolve these issues.

--B2707SST



Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
User currently offlineSuperDash From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 574 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3424 times:

Problem number one with the plane is that it costs about 50% more to operate than the prop version. It doesn't come with any more seats, so that's money right out of the operator's hide. The 328Prop costs as much to operate as a Dash 8-200, but has 5-7 fewer seats. It is slow. The Q400's cruise speed is just shy of the 328Jet, but it's costs are way more competitive. 30-37 seat jets don't work well since they are high cost and really don't have any profit seats. I would be surprised if Delta says they can make money even to the network (let alone the local market) with the 328s. Even as a prop, I found the 328 to be terrible. I won't miss it. Long live the Dash 8.

25 Post contains links Flying-Tiger : No, I actually meant Air Whiskey - they were supposed to be in talks for a sizeable number of 328/428JET to replace the Dornier 328 turboprops and to
26 Wilcharl : Guys... any confirmation on the rumor that there is poor support from pratt on the engines as for getting spares and parts and that when the engines a
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