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JetBlue Not Selling Well BOS-DEN  
User currently offlineJetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2972 posts, RR: 14
Posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4014 times:

I was recently looking at prices from BOS-DEN and visa versa with B6. I know that the launching of the flight is still one week away, but it looks likes seats aren't being sold. The regular fares will start at $115 online, but there's a sale at $99 one-way online. However, the fares that I checked for some January flights show the BOS-DEN leg at only $79. I know they did the same thing with ATL as far as pricing.

I don't understand this BOS-DEN route. It looks like UA only serves the route twice a day (according to their website). Frontier pulled out of the route. So there's only 2 daily flights, then 3 when B6 comes in? Isn't that kind of ridiculous for two very large cities?

Any feedback is very much appreciated.

JetBluefan1


Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDiatraveler From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3919 times:

Don't know about the B6 loads on BOS-DEN; the lousy flight times probably have something to do with it. UA has five daily non-stops on the DEN-BOS route.

Regards


User currently offlineORDagent From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3877 times:

The loads may still be low as awareness by the public may not yet be out there. It always seams that B6 is always routing the flights at odd times until demand warrants more frequencies.


User currently offlineJetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2972 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3869 times:

"five daily non-stops"

Weird. I was looking at united.com and found only 2 non-stops. All the others went through Chicago or Dulles. They seemed to have lowered their prices on only one of the non-stops. One is $265 rt and the other is $492 rt.

JetBluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineJetMARC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 547 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3859 times:

The fares are on sale right now, if you purchase a flight by a certain date, regardless of actual travel date, you'll get a great deal. I know only a certain amount of seats are sold at $79, as they disappear, seats are then sold at a different level. Also, dont forget Jan, Feb, Mar, tend to be slow travel months for most airlines... Maybe we're full, but just selling cheap tickets... does higher ticket prices necessarily reflect full loads??


"Sucka, I'm gonna send you out on Knuckle Airlines. Fist Class!!" ~ Mr. T
User currently offlineJetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2972 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3816 times:

"does higher ticket prices necessarily reflect full loads??"

Yes it does. For example, a walk-up fare from JFK-FLL can be $69 on one flight, and another may be $244 walk-up fare. Obviously, the $69 flight sold less seats than the $244 flight which is almost sold out.

JetBluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13518 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3784 times:
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Weird. I was looking at united.com and found only 2 non-stops.

Well, it sure looks like 5 daily nonstops to me:

31DEC WED DEN/MST BOS/EST¥2¶
1UA 744 F Y B M H Q V DENBOS 8 850A 232P 757 B/F 0 /E¶
W A S T K L G ¶
2UA 330 F Y B M H Q V DENBOS 9 1005A 350P 319 L/F 0 /E¶
W A S T K L G ¶
3UA1216 F Y B M H Q V DENBOS 8 1225P 615P 320 L/F 0 /E¶
W A S T K L G ¶
4UA 354 F Y B M H Q V DENBOS 8 350P 930P 757 L/F 0 /E¶
W A S T K L G ¶
5UA 726 F Y B M H Q V DENBOS 7 620P 1157P 757 D/F 0 /E¶
W A S T K L G ¶


Granted, that's for today. Perhaps their spring schedule is a bit different? What dates were you checking?

RB



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3727 times:

I found six UA nonstops in June, 2004:


6:20 pm Depart Denver (DEN)
Arrive Boston (BOS) 12:03 am +1 day Tue 8-Jun
Duration: 3hr 43mn United Airlines 726
Nonstop flight

8:40 am Depart Denver (DEN)
Arrive Boston (BOS) 2:29 pm Tue 8-Jun
Duration: 3hr 49mn United Airlines 744
Nonstop flight

10:05 am Depart Denver (DEN)
Arrive Boston (BOS) 3:50 pm Tue 8-Jun
Duration: 3hr 45mn United Airlines 584
Nonstop flight

10:20 am Depart Denver (DEN)
Arrive Boston (BOS) 4:10 pm Tue 8-Jun
Duration: 3hr 50mn United Airlines 348
Nonstop flight

12:45 pm Depart Denver (DEN)
Arrive Boston (BOS) 6:35 pm Tue 8-Jun
Duration: 3hr 50mn United Airlines 1216
Nonstop flight

3:50 pm Depart Denver (DEN)
Arrive Boston (BOS) 9:35 pm Tue 8-Jun
Duration: 3hr 45mn United Airlines 354
Nonstop flight





Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offlineVafi88 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3116 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3690 times:

JetBlue flies in here from Boston???

I was looking on the tracker and it said New York...

go figure...



I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
User currently offlineJetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2972 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3675 times:

Oh okay now I see. I was sorting the flights by price, and there was only one non-stop for $256. Then there were all these connection flights, then at the end of the page there were more non-stops for around $500.

If United is going to try to keep its PAX on this route, then don't they need to lower their prices quite a bit more?

JetBluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13518 posts, RR: 62
Reply 10, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3618 times:
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If United is going to try to keep its PAX on this route, then don't they need to lower their prices quite a bit more?

They may have to, or at least offer the lower prices on the nonstop service instead of on connecting ones only if they're going to compete with jetBlue.

Odds are they'll only match jetBlue's price on a nonstop at the time that most closely mirrors the B6 nonstop.






"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineSunValley From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3583 times:

It doesn't surprise me. B6 will probably drop it in due time (kind of like they did at ATL) Back when Frontier was serving the route, I did some analysis on the effect it had for UA. Believe me it is a very high Business Fare Yield Market, with very very entranched Mileage Plus fliers, and I look for UA to up the anty & offer triple or quadruple miles, add more flights on the run that pass thru DEN and onto other destinations (making even more nonstops) in other words, dilute the market so B6 doens't stand a chance.

User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 12, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3548 times:

SunValley

Far an Airline market research analyst, can you say BIASED!



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineSunValley From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3488 times:

Yes LUV, I get paid to report & do analysis on what the records show.

[Edited 2003-12-31 18:10:37]

User currently offlineJetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2972 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3442 times:

"B6 will probably drop it in due time (kind of like they did at ATL)"

I understand your guess, but I don't agree. I think B6 will keep the route even if it isn't too profitable. This is because JetBlue doesn't have an actual limit to slots at Boston. Also, when those EMB-190's come, JetBlue may launch service from Boston to ROC, BUF and SYR. Therefore, connections can be made to Denver from those markets. BUF is practically big enough to have its own non-stop to DEN anyway.

Another reason I don't think JetBlue will drop the route is because it can easily compete with United. For example, United's most recent sale said $170 one-way from Dulles to LAX. That was a SALE fare. JetBlue offers that route (to LGB) for $134 one-way - non-sale. It doesn't look like United will be able to keep their fares so low to compete with JetBlue. They're doing very poorly financially giving JetBlue a great chance at stomping them to the ground.

It also looks as if JetBlue's walk-ups to Denver will be quite lower that UA's.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see when the service actually starts, of course  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

JetBluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineSunValley From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3374 times:

Time will tell of course, but F9's low fares lost them $$ on the route. Which resulted in their shutting it down. (a 22% load factor was the reason)
As my earlier post indicated, these city pairs are not at all a low fare price driven route.

[Edited 2003-12-31 19:00:31]

User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13518 posts, RR: 62
Reply 16, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3323 times:
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I think B6 will keep the route even if it isn't too profitable. This is because JetBlue doesn't have an actual limit to slots at Boston.

There weren't slot limits on ATL either...but that didn't stop B6 from backpedaling like the French Army.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25012 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3301 times:
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SunValley:

I think what you say is true but not quite accurate - or accurate but not quite true.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Frontier did very well out of Boston until the double whammy. The original 1 x daily did so well they increased it to 2 x daily.

I flew BOS/DEN/LAX many times, and I can't remember a time when the plane wasn't full. Frontier even started employing their own over-wing staff, instead of using Midwest.

The last time I flew out of Boston was in Spring 2001 - I had just relocated to Northern California - and again, the flight was full. At that time, there was talk of a possible third daily.

Then the double whammy hit - I can't remember the order. When Terminal A was closed Frontier had to pay through the nose for gate space, and there was 9/11.

It was after 9/11 that the loads took a nose dive, and that, coupled with the increased ground handling costs, killed the service.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineSunValley From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3297 times:

Come BlueFan, Buf-Den, I've got the boarding records for the last 12 months. It is NOT a market that can even come close to running a daily
A320.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3295 times:

JetBlue flies in here from Boston??

Not yet they don't.

They'll offer both BOS and JFK.

N


User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3283 times:

As SunValley said, price is not a factor on this route. It is mostly business travelers that expect miles and service. DEN fliers love F9 and if they couldn't do it I really cant see B6 making it work...


/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineCritter_592 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 279 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3234 times:

Great discussion people.

User currently offlineSunValley From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days ago) and read 3204 times:

Mariner, I appreciate what you say, but I also have the Boarding records for that route each month prior to 9-11 and each month after 9-11, for both UA and F9, as well as some thru service AA had (via ORD), and other airlines boardings where the destination was DEN, but connecting thru another city such as CLT & CVG etc. etc. The come no where to even hitting break even points on an average. (The F9 service had a great non-rev load factor)

User currently offlineJetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2972 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days ago) and read 3168 times:

"There weren't slot limits on ATL either"

I know but there were (and still are) slot limits in LGB.

As far as the BUF-DEN, Buffalo couldn't serve the market alone. Rochester would also help - people drive all the time from Rochester to catch a flight out of BUF - especially with WN. Someone would rather drive an hour to Buffalo to get a non-stop to DEN instead of taking a connection in PHL or PIT.

JetBluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25012 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days ago) and read 3134 times:
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SunValley:

Well, if you say you have boarding records, I can't argue with you. Except that I am deeply confused.

If you claim that the pre 9/11 l/f was 22% then I am even more confused.

More importantly, and much more seriously (and illegally), I'm not sure why they would lie to their shareholders at an AGM.

cheers

mariner




aeternum nauta
25 SunValley : Mariner, I did not say pre 9-11 boarding records indicate a 22% load factor. As your post indicated they had reasonable loads when they had 1 flight i
26 Mariner : SunValley: I appreciate your clarification, and I agree with your eventual, post 9/11 figures. For the record, though, the fares (at least the ones th
27 ChrisNH : JetBlue--up till now a Wall Street darling--will do themselves some harm if they discontinue routes and/or cities (a la ATL). There are already whispe
28 MAH4546 : If BOS-DEN turns into a dud, optimists will just say JetBlue will redeploy their assets elsewhere. That's what airlines do. American Airlines has laun
29 Dutchjet : Lets get back to reality......its entirely unclear how JetBlue will do in the BOS-DEN market, this enitre thread is based on some low fares being avai
30 UN_B732 : Sorry for a thread hijack, Anyone know what kind of loads AA pulled on ORD-BTV? -UN
31 FA4UA : One thing is for sure, you can count on UA defending DEN from B6. We're starting to change gears to the offense and we're over the LCC's. B6 better be
32 NWAFA : Hi FA4UA I think your right..UA is like us at NWA, when a small one tries to come in, they usually loose! By the way NWA is starting two daily LAX-DEN
33 Jettblasterp : Mariner, F9 getting their own staff at their counter was not a sign they were doing well. The YX agents just didn't want to deal with handling the F9
34 FA4UA : Yeah I saw that, NWAFA, on the news. NW better watch out cuz UA is all about keeping DEN a fortress hub. We're sick of F9 and launching Ted to combat
35 Mariner : NWAFA: Trouble is, the NWA move might hurt UAL more than Frontier. Frontier doesn't have First Class. So if NWA starts stealing UAL's premium pax, I t
36 Post contains images FA4UA : But where can you get from DEN on NW's network? not too many places compared with the enormous reach UA has there! I could see NW pulling out of DEN-L
37 NWAFA : Oh I hear ya...its a "point to point" for NWA. UA and F9 have the most flights flying that..however the LAX-DEN market is growing so much that NWA can
38 Mariner : NWAFA: "So if we enter markets....we stay and make money in it." Stay? Sure Make money? Maybe - eventually. Maybe. NWA added routes from MKE either to
39 Post contains links Mariner : I'll make that link easier for you. Try it again: http://finance.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=FN&action=m&board=7083055&tid=meh&sid=7083055&mid=14836 ch
40 F9Fan : I remember when F9 announced the new service from MSP to LAX, NW immediately scheduled two flights at the identical times on the MSP to LAX routes. As
41 MAH4546 : I remember hearing that AA decided to add a couple LAX to STL flights. They did not add extra STL-LAX fights as a result. On 15 December 2003, before
42 PVD757 : With B6 not having any other presence in BOS yet, these flights unfortunately have to develop. They do not have the rep that WN has yet, so they canno
43 JetBluefan1 : "Who was the last casualty that successfully stood up to WN like that and won?" It seems America West is doing fine for an LCC as its two hubs are als
44 PVD757 : Again, the question was who has won, not who has survived.
45 JetBluefan1 : "Again, the question was who has won, not who has survived." It's a win-win situation. Both America West and WN are profitable airlines. JetBluefan1
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