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Future Of The 767-400?  
User currently offlineTexAussie From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 142 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4517 times:

The 767-400 is indeed a nice plane... but what is its future? CO and DL bought a handful each, but that seems to be about it. Is anyoneone else going to step up and buy some more, or is this going to be a limited edition airplane (the economics are shocking if that is the case!)?

I think Boeing builds a great product, but the company's management has certainly been questionable. I hope things improve now that Phil Conditt is gone.

(Forgive me if there have been forums on this before... I am relatively new to this discussion site.)



17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMD11LuxuryLinr From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1385 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4438 times:

As long as the 767 line is open, I'm sure the 764 will be offered, like the 762. Boeing pretty much designed and built the aircraft for DL and CO because they needed L1011 and DC10 replacements, so their orders pretty much paid for the development. There are always hopes of another airline ordering them, there were even rumors...It would be great for the line, but probably won't happen.


Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
User currently offlineRamerinianAir From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4417 times:

Boeing built the 400 version for DL and CO. Boeing knew that only if DL and CO ordered that version they would make money so, they tailored the version perfectly to DL & CO's needs. The A/C is in between the 763ER and the 777 and there might not be a niche for this A/C in most airlines fleets. The 764 is used on Hawaii routes and other routes that are sub-international(domestic routes that are long) or internaitonal routes that aren't too far but have high demand(The 764 can carry quite a bit more passengers than the 763 can)
Hope I could help...
-S.R.



W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
User currently offlineReggaebird From Jamaica, joined Nov 1999, 1176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4396 times:


Kenya Airways actually placed orders (or was it options) on the 767-400ERX, which never materialized. Kenya has changed the order to 777-200ERs now.


User currently offlineQantasA332 From Australia, joined Dec 2003, 1500 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4312 times:

I don't see the 764 developing into much. With only a few orders, it's really not going anywhere...
Having said that, I do think a 762/763 replacement is overdue, and a new a/c in the 767's category will pop onto the market in the near future...

qantasA332


User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4235 times:

It's called the 7E7.

User currently offlineQantasA332 From Australia, joined Dec 2003, 1500 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4197 times:

Uh, Boeing and the 7E7 aren't the whole deal...I was thinking more along the lines of offers from both A and B...

qantasA332


User currently offlineGalvanAir777 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4152 times:

I could never understand the logic behind the 764, i mean yeah DL and CO had them made just for them but, why not offer the 772? I just cant see Boeings idea behind it, then again i might not be looking at the full picture.




GalvanAir now Serving Airliners.net!
User currently onlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16857 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4131 times:

The USAF has a 767-400 being delivered which they will convert into a E-10A, a new Electronic warfare platform which may replace the Air Force's current fleet of Joint Stars, Rivet Joints, TACAMO and possibly AWACS. The potential order for the Air Force could be over 50 frames, depending on what missions they give the aircraft.





Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineTexAussie From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4123 times:

I think Boeing shareholders are looking for the logic behind it too, GalvanAir777.

I wonder if the DL and CO orders really did pay for themselves, or if a lot of the development will be a write-off. The 777-100 never materialized; perhaps this would have been a better fit.


User currently offlineTexAussie From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4092 times:

Ahhh,

Thanks STT757.

Now that makes sense. Glad someone will use the airframe in quantity.

I remember seeing the old... I mean ANCIENT... 707s and 720s at the Birmingham, AL, airport that were being converted into J-Stars. I remember thinking how stupid that was -- like using Model-T's in lieu of HumVees.



User currently offlineAApilot2b From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 572 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4076 times:

Yeh. It seems the 767-400's future will be more in the area of future AWACS.

User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4769 posts, RR: 43
Reply 12, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3973 times:

Apart from military B 764 orders the only future orders for the B 764 I see coming are from CHINA, CENTRAL ASIA and AFRICA.

A good customer that BOEING failed to grab for the B 764 was NORTHWEST AIRLINES when they had to replace their DC 10-40 fleet especially which were as old and similar in size + capacity to DLs Tristars and COs DC 10-30s!!!

Do NWAs B 753s fly nonstop MSP-HNL at least...from SEA/West USA easily?



User currently offlineManchesterMAN From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 1224 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3907 times:

I though one of the european charter companies might have bought some as an alternative to the popular A332, particularly as some airlines such as Britannia are fiercely loyal to Boeing and could possibly do with something a little bigger than the 764, but not as big as the 772. Doubt it will happen now - a case of bad timing me thinks with the downturn. Might have got more orders had things been different. Also the ending of the 757 line can't give airlines much confidence in the 767s future given they were launched at pretty much the same time.


Flown: A300,A319,A320,A321,A330,A340.A380,717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,F100,F50,ERJ,E190,CRJ,BAe146,Da
User currently onlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16857 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3643 times:

Boeing selling 767-400s to CO and DL have covered their development costs, any thing after that is gravy.

The requirment DL wanted filled was for an aircraft with a similar capacity to their L-1011s that they can utilize on Domestic routes, two of the most important features of this aircraft had to be that it be able to operate out of NY's Laguardia Airport and second that it not have too big of a foot print on the ramp at busy hubs like ATL where every gate counts.

CO they wanted the aircraft to replace their DC-10s on International and Hawaiin routes, they wanted an aircraft with a similar capacity to their DC-10s and again not have too big of a foot print on their ramps at hubs in EWR and IAH.

The 777 and A330s were not practical for either CO or DL because neither could fly into LGA, nor were they compatible with CO and DL's large fleet of 757s and 767s. Also the 777 and A330s have very large wing spans which would take up more ramp space than the 767-400, also the 777 and A330 are much more expensive than the 767-400.

The 767-400 were perfect for CO and DL, AA and UAL decided instead to replace their DC-10 fleets with more 767-300s and 777s. AA and UAL each have more 777s than CO and DL combined, however CO and DL utilize their 777 fleets more in line with the aircrafts performance capabilities (long haul).

The only other US airline order I could see for the 767-400 at some point might be AA to replace their A300s and older 767s at some point, but perhaps they will wait for the 7E7.

CO utilizes their 767-400s on some long routes like IAH-AMS and EWR-HNL, they also fly the 767-400s on Air Mike routes like HNL-Guam and Guam-Japan.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineAsianguy767 From Singapore, joined Oct 2003, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3533 times:

Maybe JL will consider replacing some of its DC10s and MD11s with the B764 and not just B777s since it already has a large B763 fleet?

User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3445 times:

The 7E7 stretch will be the future B764/A332.

STT, AA won't order 764s to replace the A300s because the 764s hold a lot less cargo and they make a hell of a lot of money from cargo on the A300 routes.

I was always surprised that more airlines didn't go for the 753. Lowest seat mile costs of any narrowbody, fits in with the majors fleets, better for some L-1011/DC-10 replacement routes.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3311 times:

Boeing selling 767-400s to CO and DL have covered their development costs, any thing after that is gravy.

Agreed. The current 764ER was a minimum change stretch of the 763ER. The proposed 764ERX (which as mentioned Kenya Airways ordered) would have had more powerful engines and higher weights/range.

There will not likely be any more 764 orders, except for perhaps (but unlikely) some small follow-on orders from CO or DL. Perhaps a further USAF order. Any airlines expressing interest in the 764 will be heavily encouraged to the new 7E7. Any new 764 order now will only remove a potential 7E7 launch customer which is not really in Boeing's interest.

STT, AA won't order 764s to replace the A300s because the 764s hold a lot less cargo and they make a hell of a lot of money from cargo on the A300 routes.

I agree. Moreover, the AA A300's are barely middle age....AA may as well continue to fly them to maximize the ROI and defer the capital cost of replacement.

Maybe JL will consider replacing some of its DC10s and MD11s with the B764 and not just B777s since it already has a large B763 fleet?

Both JAL & ANA have ordered large numbers of 763's in the past few years....I was surprized they did not step up to the 764. It won't happen now. Both are considered prime 7E7 launch customers.

I was always surprised that more airlines didn't go for the 753.

The 753, like the 764, was offered too late by Boeing. Both should have been launched in the early 90's not the late 90's. Then you would have seen more orders. Nonetheless, I was surprized that Britannia, Air 2000, Airtours & Monarch did not order the 753.








Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
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