Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Another lift question  
User currently offlineMirage From Portugal, joined May 1999, 3125 posts, RR: 13
Posted (17 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 885 times:

For those of you who like military aviation, you should know the "knife pass" displayed on every air shows.
During that display the plane isn't either on the normal position or the upside down position. It's in a middle position and I wonder how can the plane fly without the wings surface.
I think lift here doesn't work because the wings axis is not parallel with the ground, it's perpendicular.
I know for example in a dog fight, the plane can do any thing the pilot wants, as long as the structural limits are not pushed too much, but in this case the G forces do the work. In the knife pass the pilot is under 1G, flying in a straight line, so, how can the plane be sustained.

Imagine this F-16 flying staight ahead for 2Km. What surface keeps it sustained?

Mirage, Faro, Portugal

4 replies: All unread, jump to last
User currently offlineflyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (17 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 885 times:

You probably have noticed that aircraft doing knift edge flight are never horizontal, they are always pointed to the sky somewhat. The lift is created by the downward component of thrust ( and Newtow's 3rd Law (air striking the fuse and tail surfaces). In the picture, you can see that the wings are not totally verticle, thus still creating some downwards lift (even though not much), which is why the aircraft's longitudinal axis can stay fairly horizontal.

User currently offlineC-GMWW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (17 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 885 times:

Lift isn't relevant to the ground. It's the relitive to the airflow. Relitive airflow is the air that hits the wings. Angle of attack is the angle of which the wings hit the relitive airflow. Lift is dirived from the angle of attack. The higher the angle of attack the more lift. In the case with the F-16 in the knife pass, the plane is (asuming) straight and level flight. The control surfaces are completely changed around. The rudder now acts as the elevator, elevators as the rudder but ailerons still act as the ailerons.. Useally the plane is parallel to the ground, but many high performece aircraft can fly in manuvers which many other's can't. After writing this I got a little confused, so if I can be corrected please do so.

User currently offlineMirage From Portugal, joined May 1999, 3125 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (17 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 885 times:

That picture isn't a good example because that F-16 can be turning and not on a straight flight.

But I conclude that the pilot apply rudder to keep the plane nose pointing to the sky (just a little).

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 30408 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (17 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 886 times:

I am glad that you posted a picture of an F-16 because it is a perfect example of desining the shape of an aircraft to support lift and a great example of Vortex generated lift. The shape of the wing fillets and strakes on modern aircraft (F-16, F-18, MIG-29, SU-27, Griffin, Concorde) are made to generate a vortex that starts at the base of the wing and then flows over the top of the wing when the aircraft is moving. The way that the vortex rotates is such that it creates a low pressure area over the body and wing of the aircraft. Of course just like on a normal airfoil the wing is drawn into this area of low pressure. The wing of these modern fighters are really thin because they are optimised for high speed flight. If you where to design a airfoil that produces lift in the normal manner it would have to be quite thick to produce the lift that the Vortex system provides and would slow the airplane down considerably. Also the vortex enables the aircraft to fly at much higher angles of attack (60-70 degrees nose up) then would be possible with a standard airfoil.

There is some really neat footage taken of one of the concorde aerodynamic models during a wind tunnel test. You can clearly see the vortexes clearly rotating over the wing.

On prop airplanes it is just a matter of what we said in the earlier aerodynamic posts. You just need to increase the angle of attack of the lifting surface. Except in sideways flight the fuselage is providing the lift not the wing. One advatage the fuselage has over the wing is that all the air around it is moving at much higher velocity then over the wing due to the fact the fuselage is completly in the propwash. Mose fuselages actually have pretty good airfoils shape. They are blunt at the engine and taper down to a point at the tail. Delmar Benjamin's Gee Bee replica is reported to have very good knife edge flight charicteristics. If I ever get my pictures of it in flight posted it is pretty easy to see why. It is just one big symetrical airfoil from the bottom. In his case he just has to hold enough angle of attack so the body produces enough lift. In jets with normal wings it works the same except that the jet doesn't have the airflow from the prop assisting the creating of lift. So they have to maintain both higher airspeed and a higher angle of attack to maintain altitude.

I Said in the early posts that the book Aerodynamics For Naval Aviators is about the best reference book for aerodynamics out there. I recommend it.

Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Another Reg Question: AMS - EWR On SQ 04/2001 posted Mon May 8 2006 20:19:10 by Oli80
Another IND Question posted Fri Oct 29 2004 01:51:27 by 7E72004
Another Southwest Question posted Wed Apr 21 2004 04:55:30 by SFOintern
Another Stansted Question posted Mon Aug 25 2003 14:02:48 by Udo
Another Interiors Question - Eastern posted Sat Oct 12 2002 02:27:36 by Exitrowaisle
Another Tristar Question. posted Sun Jan 7 2001 14:21:25 by Tristar4ever
Another A3XX Question! posted Wed Aug 23 2000 19:30:29 by Delta777-XXX
Another AeroFlot Question? posted Tue Feb 22 2000 05:32:16 by Airman99o
Another Triva Question. posted Wed Apr 14 1999 02:23:30 by L-188
Another lift question posted Fri Mar 5 1999 20:17:12 by Mirage