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Air Marshalls An Advantage To Terrorists?  
User currently offlineEZYAirbus From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2460 posts, RR: 52
Posted (10 years 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3501 times:

Will terrorists take advantage of air marshalls and try and board a plane knowing full well there is a gun on board, if there are enough they could easily overpower the air marshalls, i think the air marshalls will only fire the gun as a last resort in a pressurised cabin.

what you people think?

Glenn


http://www.glenneldridgeaviation.com
75 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6204 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (10 years 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3467 times:

that's why we hope that air marshalls are better trained than the terrorists!


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlinePiedmontGirl From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1124 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (10 years 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3451 times:

EZYAirbus:

Firing a gun in a pressurized cabin has no effect at all on cabin pressure. None. That is something that Hollywood dreamed up.

The frangible ammunition that AMs use will not penetrate the hull of an airplane. It is, however, extraordinarily hard on the human body.

Even if a shell were to pierce the skin, it would cause no more than a very loud and annoying pressure leak. It could be stopped by simply putting something fairly large over it like a newspaper. Keep in mind that the pressure outflow valves that control cabin pressure are typically about 18 inches across.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12192 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (10 years 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3443 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Sadly we ALL have to think about this because it has now come to having Sky Marshalls on nearly every US bound flight. If there is going to a hijacking and there are about 5-10 terrirosts on board, how can one or even two defend themselfs, the plane and the passengers from double the amount of terrirosts then there are of Sky Marshalls. In other words YES it will be an advantage. Lets just hope that no Sky Marshalls are needed

User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (10 years 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3430 times:

I can see no way that there could be a gun fight in the air or the thought of downing a whole aircraft just for the sake of national pride or esteem.

Airport operators tell us they are very thorough in their searches and we are told there is accurate intelligence about operations. That really doesn't seem to be the case.

Getting civilians caught up in gun battles in the air doesn't appear a credible way forward.



User currently offlineSlamclick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 5, posted (10 years 9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3361 times:

Babybus

What is your plan?



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineBluewave 707 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3152 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (10 years 9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3313 times:

No one knows which exact flight an AM will be on. That way it will keep the terrorists guessing if there is an armed AM on-board.

According to the US Gov't, these AMs will receive (or have received) CQB (Close Quarters Battle) training like many SWAT and Special Ops Units in the US. These are not your everyday run-of-the-mill patrol officers. They are also trained to blend in, like an undercover cop. I'm sure that the firearm and ammo they have are of top quality.

Just knowing there might be an AM aboard, is better than not having one on.



"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
User currently offlineNecigrad From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (10 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3233 times:

I still fail to see what an air marshal does. I was ALWAYS taught that in order to have a hijacking there had to be a weapon or a threat of a weapon. So now we put the weapon on the plane for them?

User currently offlineVSGirl From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3233 times:

777ER,

No one knows how many flights have Sky Marshall’s on them. I don’t think for a second that every flight or even 50% of flights have Sky Marshall’s on them (talking about flights from & too the EU).

As for guns, well, safest way could be to have Sky Marshall’s onboard, but without a gun...

Kimberly.


User currently offlineSpotterboy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 9 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3210 times:

I don't get the point of this discussion....

Sky Marshals are usually not wearing a sign on their clothes "Look im a Sky Marshal and armed!!!". They're wearing civil clothes, like every other passenger in the airplane.
If you have e.g. 200 passengers onboard a flight to the US, how to find out who's the sky marshal??? I can't see any way.

And I also guess, the biggest advantage of a Sky Marshal is that nobody knows who it is. It could be the guy with two children next to him, or the good dressed businessman. Nobody knows...

So Air Marshals are a good thing IMO, and because of their good training, as Bluewave said, I don't think any of them would pull a gun in the cabin, there are other ways to bring down an UNARMED "terrorist"!


User currently offlineSlamclick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 10, posted (10 years 9 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3205 times:

Necigrad

You are right. You fail to see. Do you have any idea how stupid your statement that we "put the weapon on the plane for them" sounds? Unless of course you meant for use ON them

I'd guess that if an FAM carried (for example) ten rounds of ammunition and there were eleven hijackers with boxcutters the best a hijacker could hope for is to gain control of one empty pistol and ten dead companions. It sounds as if you believe that, apart from the weapons carried by the FAM's there is no possibility of anyone ever smuggling a weapon aboard an airplane again. Ridiculous. I'm glad they are on board on my flights.

Broad-brush criticism is cheap and easy and we've had a belly full of it by now.
I pose to you the same question I posed in reply number 5:

What is your plan?






Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineUAL777CONTRAIL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 9 months 3 days ago) and read 3138 times:

necigrad,
We put the threat of the weapon on the plane? We did that when pilots thought they could be the hero's and carry the gun. I would trust a FAM anyday over a pilot.

If anything the FAM will be the one to take the first hit or to see how many or who is the threat onboard the plane, I don't think that it will EVER happen the way it did before. People are aware of what is at stake and what they will do, it is like a skipping record, so you would hope that enough guys or German women would take back the aircraft.


UAL 777 CONTRAIL


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 9 months 3 days ago) and read 3128 times:

Piedmontgirl, a bullet hitting a window would cause a big problem. So would a bullet hitting any number of electricalor hydraulic componenets, not to mention 300+ passengers.

User currently offlineSlamclick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 13, posted (10 years 9 months 3 days ago) and read 3094 times:

UAL777 CONTRAIL

I don't know how the UK intends to run its program but since Necigrad is posting from the USA I think it would be appropriate to comment on the US practices.

In the first place, UK or US one does not use an apostrophe to form a plural. The word is heroes not hero's. That is the possessive.

In the second place, the pilots did not do it to be "hero's" but to save the lives (deserving or not) of their passengers as a last-ditch defense. The FFDO's (armed pilots) guns must remain on the flight deck. We do not ever intend to come charging down the aisle like Wyatt Earp. If the FFDO ever has to draw his weapon it is because there was no FAM or other LEO on board and/or the bad guys have prevailed. AND, the bad guys have managed to break open the bulletproof cockpit door.

So ask yourself, if hijackers are firmly in command of the passenger cabin and using your head as a battering ram against the cockpit door, a flight of F-15s are busting mach to get there in time to shoot you down before your plane can be used to kill three thousand people on the ground, don't you think you might have some sort of epiphany and come to believe that maybe the pilots having a gun (or two) might be an okay idea after all?

Personally I think arming pilots is a bad idea but I can't think of a better one, given today's realities. It is kind of like capital punishment. One can make all kinds of arguments against it but one fact has never been disputed. An executed felon has not once ever gone on to kill again.

There is a Catch-22 at work here and few people, even in the news media are smart enough or honest enough to make note of it. If counter terrorism efforts are 100% successful there is no terrorist act committed and therefore the counter terrorism measures look like they are not needed. Always remember the success statistic is a zero. Nothing happens - that's a good thing!

By the way, I apologize for correcting your use of the language on "hero's" but I did that just to make one point.

It is easy to criticize. Ralph Nader managed to get the Corvair taken out of production but has yet to design a car of his own. Critics really do not have much value. If you think this is an important topic then contribute to it with ideas, suggestions. We all know what the faults are. The person of value will be the person who improves the system.




Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlinePiedmontGirl From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1124 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (10 years 9 months 3 days ago) and read 3046 times:

77236ER:

Piedmontgirl, a bullet hitting a window would cause a big problem. So would a bullet hitting any number of electricalor hydraulic componenets, not to mention 300+ passengers.

1) The ammunition used by AMs will not pierce the skin of the airplane. It is a specialized ammo made just for that purpose. It has been tested repeatedly.

2) Even if a window blew out, you would have a decompression. The masks would drop. Anytime a pressure outflow valve fails on any given airplane, you have a hole about 18 inches across. You can't see it from your seat. You have to be outside the plane and directly under it, but it's there. The plane doesn't stop flying because of this.

3) Hollywood does not have the first clue about decompressions. The ones in movies feature things flying all around the airplane and last for several minutes. I've been in decompressions. They last a few seconds at most and nothing flies around the cabin. The masks drop. The airplane descends to below 14,000, and that's that.

4) If hijackers manage to take control of the airplane and are behind that reinforced cockpit door, the F-16s are going to come up and shoot the airplane down. A frangible bullet hitting a window and going splat is nothing compared to the damage an air-to-air missile will cause. The best place, I understand, to hit the airplane is just forward or aft of the wing. This insures a large explosion and the immediate deaths of all aboard. If, say, only the tail were to be shot off, it might well leave the passengers conscious and cognizant of what is happening for 20 to 30 seconds. Time that off on your watch and see just how long it seems.

SlamClick:

In the second place, the pilots did not do it to be "hero's" but to save the lives (deserving or not) of their passengers as a last-ditch defense. The FFDO's (armed pilots) guns must remain on the flight deck. We do not ever intend to come charging down the aisle like Wyatt Earp. If the FFDO ever has to draw his weapon it is because there was no FAM or other LEO on board and/or the bad guys have prevailed. AND, the bad guys have managed to break open the bulletproof cockpit door.

This is true. Totally accurate information. I find it odd that someone will put his life in the pilots' hands when he gets on the plane, but does not think the pilots can be trusted with a pistol.

Many, many pilots have top secret government clearances, and can be trusted to fly F-14s and F-15s and B-52s armed with nuclear weapons, but cannot be trusted with a pistol so that he can make a last ditch effort to keep himself, his crew, and his passengers (deserving or not) from being killed. I find that to be an utterly bizarre situation.

When I first started flying, every pilot I knew had a .45 in his flight bag. They didn't play Wyatt Earp then, and they're not going to do it now. Pilots are some of the most self disciplined people I know.

I put my own life in the hands of pilots every single day I worked a trip or flew for any other reason for well over thirty years. I have more than 30,000 take-off and landings, almost 45,000 hours in the air. The worst thing a pilot has ever done to me is be mildly annoying. Big whoop.



[Edited 2004-01-04 19:05:31]

User currently offlineObithomas From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (10 years 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3029 times:

Hollywood does not have the first clue about decompressions. The ones in movies feature things flying all around the airplane and last for several minutes. I've been in decompressions. They last a few seconds at most and nothing flies around the cabin.

Somewhat off the topic of bullet-caused decompression, but doesn't this depend on the size of the decompression vent? I have read reports of the UAL 747 that blew a cargo door off Honolulu and it was devastating. People were sucked out of the aircraft (one into the #3 engine, yikes!). Similar with the THY DC-10 in Paris.

Agreed, a bullet couldn't cause anything the size of this.


User currently offlineBluewave 707 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3152 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (10 years 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2998 times:

I have seen video of some of the training the Air Marshall's are going through. Like I said in my previous post, it's Special Forces-type stuff. As far as type of firearm, it was not disclosed, but the smallest caliber the US Gov't. uses is 9mm. They also use the .40SW and .45ACP pistols as well. Frangible ammo is made fro all of those calibers.

I can guarantee you two things: US Law Enforcement will not issue them less than 10 rounds, if anything one magazine will hold OVER 10 rounds; and each AM will have at least one backup magazine, if not two. On the first point, most high quality pistols hold more than 10 rounds (unless a 1911 .45), since they aren't restricted like the US public; and they probably have been accurized to be even more on target, especially for the type of mission and ammo it will deployed on.



"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
User currently offlinePiedmontGirl From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1124 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (10 years 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2976 times:

Obithomas:

Somewhat off the topic of bullet-caused decompression, but doesn't this depend on the size of the decompression vent? I have read reports of the UAL 747 that blew a cargo door off Honolulu and it was devastating. People were sucked out of the aircraft (one into the #3 engine, yikes!). Similar with the THY DC-10 in Paris

The UA 74: That was an entire cargo door. A huge hole in the airplane. There were several passengers that were sucked out. That's a hole big enough to stand up in. Even at that, the airplane did not stop flying. Please remember that on the UA 74, the damage extended up into the passenger area, it was not limited to "just" the area of the cargo door. There was a hole that extended up into the passenger cabin. The seats were plainly visible through it. Even at that, it happened in an instant.

Everyone remembers the scene in Airport where the flight attendant (Dean Martin's love interest) is frantically holding on to seat belts while Deano bravely drags himself down the aisle on his stomach to rescue her. This took I don't know how long. Wouldn't happen like that because it couldn't happen like that.

The loss of a cargo door, or any other door, can be catastrophic. However, an airplane can have a pretty good sized hole in it and go on flying. The UA 74 sure did. If I am thinking about the correct Paris crash, that was a structural failure at a critical phase of flight that caused the airplane to crash.

In order to do that kind of damage to an airplane, the crazies would have to either have a bomb or a good sized military weapon like a grenade launcher, an RPG launcher, a bazooka, or something of the like. These are such large weapons that a security screener would have to be either completely asleep or have been bribed for them to get on board.

The Aloha, I think it was, 732 that had its top blow off kept on flying. There was a lot of stuff blowing around the cabin, but that was from the wind. The airplane was depressurized and the 200 mph wind made a mess of anything that wasn't nailed down. One flight attendant was lost in that incident. She was standing in the forward galley at the time the top came off. Think here the way stuff would blow around in a convertible at even 40 miles per hour.

As a point of interest, on a 732, you can hear the aft pressure outflow valve working when you stand in the back galley.


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 9 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2951 times:

Even if a window blew out, you would have a decompression. The masks would drop. Anytime a pressure outflow valve fails on any given airplane, you have a hole about 18 inches across. You can't see it from your seat. You have to be outside the plane and directly under it, but it's there. The plane doesn't stop flying because of this.

>8psi, a window blowing out would cause a serious, and rapid decompression. Should the hole be plugged with the wrong object (eg. food cart), that object being forced out of the fuselage could cause damage akin to the Aloha 737-200 crash. While the aircraft could still fly, people's lives could very easily be lost.

That's assuming the sky marshall misses the 300 people and countless electrical and hydraulic systems in a confined space.


User currently offlineMD88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1330 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (10 years 9 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2937 times:

777. You are totally overstating the facts. So what if a hydraulic system is hit or an electrical component is hit. It won't make any difference. If an AM is shooting I've got more problems than some redundant aircraft system. If an AM is shooting it means I have terrorists dedicated to die in the pursuit of bringing down my aircraft. I don't care if passengers or crew are injured because of an AM's actions, because that AM's actions will be our best chance of survival.

Stop trying to bolster your argument with bogus scenarios.


User currently offlinePiedmontGirl From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1124 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (10 years 9 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2916 times:

777236ER:

>8psi, a window blowing out would cause a serious, and rapid decompression. Should the hole be plugged with the wrong object (eg. food cart), that object being forced out of the fuselage could cause damage akin to the Aloha 737-200 crash. While the aircraft could still fly, people's lives could very easily be lost.

This is bizarre and bogus. No one is going to try to plug up a window with a food cart. The airplane would be depressurized. The masks would come down. At this point, there is such a problem in the airplane that a blown out window would be of little importance. The airplane would go on flying.

MD88Captain:

777. You are totally overstating the facts. So what if a hydraulic system is hit or an electrical component is hit. It won't make any difference. If an AM is shooting I've got more problems than some redundant aircraft system. If an AM is shooting it means I have terrorists dedicated to die in the pursuit of bringing down my aircraft. I don't care if passengers or crew are injured because of an AM's actions, because that AM's actions will be our best chance of survival.

Excellent post. From my own perspective as a flight attendant, I am unconcerned about passengers or crew being injured, including myself, because if these terrorists get the airplane, I am going to surely die.

At that point, being concerned about a stray bullet hitting the wrong thing is meaningless. As you stated, the aircraft systems are redundant anyway.



User currently offlineSlamclick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 21, posted (10 years 9 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2908 times:

Folks I don't know what damage a random bullet might cause to an airliner. I know the probable effects are vastly overstated in popular press and movies. But I just don't know what might happen.

But like so many of you, I saw the video of the wreckage flying out the other side of the 2nd tower trailing fire. I have a fair idea of what hitting a building is likely to do.

I also know which I prefer.

If you cannot figure out for yourself why you are not permitted to congregate at the forward lav I think you probably do not even have a need to know. It is worthwhile. Live with it.

I used to get told by Europeans that we Americans "live in Disneyland" and now I am hearing a lot of whining from Eurpeans over minor inconveniences intended to save their damn lives. Maybe the world has gone mad.




Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineSlamclick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 22, posted (10 years 9 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2902 times:

Sorry, guess I meant the last two paragraphs for another thread.

oops



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (10 years 9 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2860 times:

This is bizarre and bogus. No one is going to try to plug up a window with a food cart.

The rapid depressurisation would do it for you, like the F/A that was stuck in the Aloha 737-200 hole.

If an AM is shooting it means I have terrorists dedicated to die in the pursuit of bringing down my aircraft.

You'd have to hope so wouldn't you? Let's just hope they have good training and were throughly vetted themselves.


User currently offlinePiedmontGirl From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1124 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (10 years 9 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2844 times:

777:

I've been through decompressions. They were complete decompressions. Not so much as a piece of paper moved. A 300 pound cart is not going to be dragged across three seats and against a window.

There was no flight attendant stuck in a hole on the Aloha 732. She went totally out of the airplane. She did not make the hole. The top of the plane came off. It was turned into a convertible.

Once the airplane is depressurized or decompressed, that's it.

You keep overstating your case and making bizarre claims. Hollywood does not know jack shit about decompressions or what happens when one occurs. An explosive decompression takes about 3 seconds. It does not take the endless minutes that Hollywood types think it takes.


25 MD88Captain : "like the F/A that was stuck in the Aloha 737-200 hole" ????? Now you've lost all credibility. You could at least do a little research before posting
26 7574EVER : People are infatuated with the "Hollywood" air disasters. Yes, if a door were to open inflight, any unsecured objects would be sucked out due to the d
27 Bluewave 707 : Sounds like PiedmontGirl has been through her share of decompressions, and knows what she is talking about. I don't think she's blowing smoke. You go
28 Post contains images KLM11 : On 747's the flight marshall normally sits on the upper deck (most commonly in the exit row). That might give the terrorists an advantage of knowing w
29 7574EVER : "On 747's the flight marshall normally sits on the upper deck (most commonly in the exit row). That might give the terrorists an advantage of knowing
30 PiedmontGirl : Bluewave707: I've been through two rapid decompressions. One was a failed pressure outflow valve on a 732, one was on a 722. The differences between e
31 Obithomas : PiedmontGirl: Even at that, it happened in an instant. I see, I didn't realize that. When I read the reports and the passengers were discussing how te
32 Post contains images PiedmontGirl : Obithomas: Even at that, it happened in an instant. I see, I didn't realize that. When I read the reports and the passengers were discussing how terri
33 Bluewave 707 : PiedmontGirl, Thanks for your wisdom and knowledge. You are one of few whom I respect in this forum. Shooting to 90+% does take a gob of ammo, but isn
34 Post contains images PiedmontGirl : Bluewave707: Thank you so very much for your kind words. The are very much appreciated. Shooting to 90+% does take a gob of ammo, but isn't it good me
35 BOEING747400 : What if a terrorist or an accomplice to him or her tried to apply for the job of AM or SM? Wouldn't that be a serious problem?
36 C17Glbm : I feel that for civilian aviation and commercial aviation the air marshals are alright as long as they do their jobs right. I was recently on a Americ
37 PiedmontGirl : C17Glbm: And then, while announcing the flight's details, the Captain felt like sharing the information that in fact we did have a air marshal on boar
38 C17Glbm : PiedmontGirl, I 100% agree. It just sounded somewhat awkward when the Captain said was briefing us about additional security measures and then slid a
39 PiedmontGirl : C17Glbm: 100% agree. It just sounded somewhat awkward when the Captain said was briefing us about additional security measures and then slid a little
40 C17Glbm : "PiedmontGirl It's one of those things that just kind of escapes me. Ya know??" Sure do. I think nowadays with all these additional security measures
41 Post contains images Bluewave 707 : PiedmontGirl, You are one of the few women I know of that are an active shooter. PG, keep that front sight on target! Don't you just love it when ever
42 UAL777CONTRAIL : SLAMCLICK, Actually you didn't clear up the use or correct turn for the word hero. I have been against the whole pilot with gun scenario since the beg
43 Post contains images PiedmontGirl : Bluewave707: You are one of the few women I know of that are an active shooter. PG, keep that front sight on target! Don't you just love it when every
44 Slamclick : UAL 777 Contrail IF it was true that [FAM'S] "all sit in first class" you would be guilty of a serious security breach for saying so. At least it woul
45 Copter808 : Everyone seems to be missing the point on the value (or folly) of having armed pilots! The weapon would only be used as a last resort! It doesn't matt
46 PiedmontGirl : Copter808: The weapon would only be a last chance effort to avoid a disaster. If it failed, nothing would be lost! Armed pilots, who are subjected to
47 C17Glbm : Many of my colleague AF pilots have top secret clearances and certainly can be trusted to execute their missions well but then again, I wouldn't trust
48 PiedmontGirl : C17Glbm: Well.......you know the program is strictly voluntary. I would trust most any pilot I've ever flown with to fly armed. If I can't trust him w
49 Slamclick : Copter808 I agree with you. I had already said something to that effect in Reply #13, the 3rd and 4th paragraphs, quoted below: In the second place, t
50 UAL777CONTRAIL : slamclick, Sad to think your lack of knowledge on this topic makes you an expert or someone who would have the ability to spar on this topic. My user
51 UAL777CONTRAIL : slamclick, I got to thinking about the whole profile thing and it gave me a laugh. Before I was William Wallace my profile was Konstantin Rokossovsky,
52 Post contains links Longhaulheavy : PiedmontGirl: I see no reason to deny these pilots, many of whom maintain top secret clearance ratings and who can be trusted to operate military airc
53 UAL777CONTRAIL : LONGHAUL, Pretty nice, cultural divides. I do agree to an extent, but I have seen how some of these hot heads over react on little things and it scare
54 Hardkor : If a terrorist is able to pose as a pilot, why not an air marshal as well?
55 PiedmontGirl : Longhaulheavy: I completely agree. Considering the background of many airline pilots, as a class of people I would trust them with a firearm far more
56 UAL777CONTRAIL : PIEDMONT, there are also many ways a pilot could be in a struggle and lose the weapon to the terrorist, or even a smaller female pilot to a large man?
57 DeltaGuy : Piedmont Girl brings up a point that I've always thought was valid... Many airline pilots are ex. military...by nature, all were subject to countless
58 PiedmontGirl : UAL777CONTRAILS: there are also many ways a pilot could be in a struggle and lose the weapon to the terrorist, or even a smaller female pilot to a lar
59 PiedmontGirl : DeltaGuy: Absolutely outstanding post. I can't believe crew USED to be able to carry firearms...what a time to limit them eh? Also bear in mind it IS
60 Filterboy : I think that Air marshals act as a good deterrent against terrorists granted Its not perfect but I cannot think of anything better. As for the marshal
61 Leskova : DeltaGuy: Remember, 9/11 happened because 4 cockpit doors were broken 8 pilots were murdered...imagine how different things would be if one pilot in e
62 MD88Captain : The gun is readily available to any Federal Flight Deck Officer. 9/11 would've still have happened but without the loss of 3000 lives.
63 UAL777CONTRAIL : PIEDMONT, You make a good point. Then tell me this, what is the purpose of having a FAM onboard? Like I had said before that they only fly first, they
64 B747-4U3 : As I have said in a similar thread, I think it is a waste of tijme increasing security onboard planes. When you think about it, on 9/11 there were 4 o
65 PiedmontGirl : Leskova: DeltaGuy: Remember, 9/11 happened because 4 cockpit doors were broken 8 pilots were murdered...imagine how different things would be if one p
66 Leskova : PiedmontGirl, thanks for the clarification about who knows about Air Marshalls on board - the fact that the crew knows does preclude the somewhat dist
67 MD88Captain : 747-4U3. What makes you think it is 1 AM onboard vs 4 or 5 terrorists? It's never 1 AM. They work in teams of multiple AM's. Not just 2 AM's either. Y
68 Post contains images PiedmontGirl : MD88Captain: The gun is readily available to any Federal Flight Deck Officer. 9/11 would've still have happened but without the loss of 3000 lives. Th
69 Kilavoud : Marshalls have guns in their pockets, and terrorists have got hate in their hearts. Which one will shoot first, gun or hate ? But can guns kill hate ?
70 Sydscott : Can I point out the obvious here, surely the principal concern of the pilots in any terrorist situation, (especially after what happened on 9/11), is
71 Richard28 : A scenario that needs to be considered is this: on 9/11 we know that there were 4/5 terrorists on each plane. It is very possible that one terrorist c
72 MD88Captain : Richard. Do you think that AM's haven't thought of that scenario? Do you think that they haven't trained for it? W/O giving away tactics, let me tell
73 AGM100 : Not to mention the AM will have a lot of help from passengers like me. I would not hesitate to jump on a fool with a box cutter or gun. I do not think
74 Babybus : The trouble we have with sorting this problem out is that it depends on where you stand. What if it were me on the plane? What if it were my parents,
75 Sydscott : I dont think it matters what scenario you can conjure up, the fact remains that even if it resembles the wild west in the cabin area, the pilots must
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