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Potential For Service Between YYZ,YUL And NE US?  
User currently offlineKBUF737 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 779 posts, RR: 3
Posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3438 times:

What is the potential for any airline service between YYZ and YUL to mid-sized NE cities? This would be somewhat more specific to my region, but driving time between Upstate NY and Toronto is getting worse as Ontario grows like wild fire. I am sure the same goes for YUL as the drive to YUL is much longer, not to mention security becoming more of an issue. Can anybody see service being added between the Ontario cities and mid-sized cities such as BUF,SYR,ROC,BTV,ALB,ERI,BDL and MHT?

-Buffalo


The tower? Rapunzel!!!!!!
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 1, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3418 times:

Can anybody see service being added between the Ontario cities and mid-sized cities such as BUF,SYR,ROC,BTV,ALB,ERI,BDL and MHT?

Ontario cities? Only Toronto is in Ontario. A large amoung of the cities you mentioned have service to Canada.

Air Canada flies ROC-YYZ, ALB-YYZ, BDL-YYZ, and MHT-YYZ. They also fly BDL-YUL. Continental Connection flies ALB-YUL, as well as ALB-YOW. Before September 2001, Air Canada flew MHT-YUL and, IIRC, ALB-YUL.

Also, Buffalo is way too close to Toronto to justify YYZ-BUF service.



a.
User currently offlineViflyer From US Virgin Islands, joined May 1999, 501 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3381 times:

Toronto the only city in Ontario?????
Hmmm....okay I guess the nations capital Ottawa isn't a city since it's in ONTARIO.

just 2 cents



I reject your reality and subsitute my own
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 3, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3362 times:

Toronto the only city in Ontario?????
Hmmm....okay I guess the nations capital Ottawa isn't a city since it's in ONTARIO.

just 2 cents



What two cents? The original poster mentioned Toronto and Montreal, and nothing else.



a.
User currently offlineNoise From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1855 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3313 times:

not to mention security becoming more of an issue.

Thats true. On my way down to the US 2 weeks ago, the line at the borders entering the US was 2 hours long. The line coming back to Canada a few days later was half an hour long. This was not the case before 9/11 or before they elevated the Terror threat.


User currently offlineKBUF737 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 779 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3315 times:

Allow me to clarify. I meant between YYZ and YUL and CITIES in the Northeastern US such as those listed. Thank you for making me aware of AC flights to these cities for I did not know about them. I appreciate it. Now brought to my attention by all of you what about service in YHM and YOW? are these also possibilities.


The tower? Rapunzel!!!!!!
User currently offlineCaribb From Canada, joined Nov 1999, 1639 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3280 times:

I think most of the cities you mention are already linked to Toronto and some to Montreal. In addition I'd like to see more "pheripheral" flights from the US to other Canadian cities like Windsor, London, Hamilton, Ste Catherines & Quebec City... all of which are among the larger urban population regions of Canada andare interesting vibrant cities in their own right. I think their time has come for direct scheduled flights to the US from their airports. New York and New England would be the most logical starting point and the cities you mention would be the best starters. It would mean better tourism & business links between the regions and a Canadian alternative when travelling abroad for Americans.

[Edited 2004-01-04 18:30:28]

User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3226 times:


I think a possible drawback is getting a U.S. Pre-clearance area, on the Canadian side. A lot of work required to set up but once done it makes it so much easier for especially regional flying to the U.S. since the destination airport then doesn't have to handle Customs responsibility overhead for the flights. At the moment it's only about a half-dozen or so of the biggest Canadian airports nationwide that have U.S. pre-clearance facilities. Check it out:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/mediaroom/backgrounders/b01-A004.htm

Halifax (YHZ) has been trying to get a designation for themselves for a while now-- (they really need to, it's really high time for them). Places like Québec (YQB), Hamilton (YHM) though, they only handle about a million passengers a year, tops , and in Hamilton's case it's almost exclusively been in the past couple of years, due to one airline (WestJet) setting up there in a relatively-major way.

For a lot of flight expansion to take place between say Upstate NY or NE and major cities in Québec or Ontario or the Maritimes, I think for the time being it 's not cost effective since the post-Sept.11 security overhead is too high to spread among the presumably-only-19-or-at-most-30-seater capacities that these theoretical flights could support.


User currently offlineCaribb From Canada, joined Nov 1999, 1639 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3219 times:

Hey Mark - surely if the routing was to Newark or JFK the customs could be cleared on the US side like normal international flights. Ok perhaps not the ideal situation given the current setup at YYZ and YUL with US preclearance but at least it allows for smaller cities in Canada to have the routing in the first place.

Doug


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16370 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3217 times:

Jetsgo started the first LLC service on YYZ-EWR.

Clearly, JFK-YYZ/YHM/YUL are possible routes for Jet Blue. YHM is prime for some transborder. YHM-EWR/PIT/DTW could all possibly work.

As for YXU/London....US Express pulled out of YXU-PIT a while back.

I don't see much business betw YYZ and ROC/SYR/BUF that can't be handled by autos and ferries.






Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3199 times:

Caribb - surely if the routing was to Newark or JFK the customs could be cleared on the US side like normal international flights. Ok perhaps not the ideal situation given the current setup at YYZ and YUL with US preclearance but at least it allows for smaller cities in Canada to have the routing in the first place.

Sounds good to me, Doug, but I think in this post-Sept.11 regulatory landscape it would just be too much hassle, for whoever even wanted to try out those 19-30 seater operations.



User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3420 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3177 times:

You forgot PVD. We have 1900's to YYZ. We could easily fill those to YUL if AC would just give it a try. There is a very sizeable demographic of French-Canadian people in the greater Providence, RI area.

User currently offlineCaribb From Canada, joined Nov 1999, 1639 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3167 times:

Any airline based in PVD that could offer the run up to Montreal? Air Canada isn't quick to supply us with new routes since they concentrate on Toronto for the most part.

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16370 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3155 times:

There is a very sizeable demographic of French-Canadian people in the greater Providence, RI area.

Unless this demographic creates high yielding business traffic, I see little need for a PVD-YUL route.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3420 posts, RR: 16
Reply 14, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3148 times:

Not too mention that AC cut what was 3 DH8's to 2 1900's. They were going to add a third again, but changed thier minds less than a week before posting it in thier schedules. PVD isn't the biggest prize around, but we have a clear shortage of YYZ and YUL service.

User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3420 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3136 times:

yyz717: the high yield demographic is stealing high yield seats at BOS right now beacuse they are forced to drive there. 2 or 3 1900's a day to YUL would capture and create more demand from PVD while freeing up the BOS seats for people from BOS. PVD's cost to AC to operate the flights would be absolutely minimal as they have no overhead here and are ground handle (under contract) by UA. It would work if they'd just try it.

User currently offlineCaribb From Canada, joined Nov 1999, 1639 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3111 times:

PVD757 - is there not a United Express Carrier down there that could run a PVD-YUL route? Why does it have to be Air Canada?

User currently offlineCanadaEH From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 1341 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3122 times:

If I could put my 2 cents in for Westjet..

I don't know about what would be the most logical route for us, but I could speculate what cities we would be starting service from. One would think that YYZ would be a good city for us to offer transborder flights, but we don't even offer connecting flights domestically there. The most logical city for us to start transborder flights to/from is YHM - but woud American passengers want to fly to YHM instead of YYZ if Toronto is their final destination? I don't see YUL offering transborder service until they get a much larger operation going.

Out west, I'd say that YVR is the most logical choice to start transborder ops. We continue to add more direct service (YYZ-YVR, YUL-YVR, YWG-YVR) and more are expected in 2004 (YOW-YVR) so we're poised to offer good connecting flights. With a growing charter operation during the winter, the addition of a hangar in late 2004, and a new pier for Westjet, YVR is in a good position to possibly become a third hub for WJ. Of course, what the hell do I know - purely speculating here. YYC may also be the first city to launch transborder traffic for obvious reasons.

What may also come into play is a partnership or codeshare agreement. While some may argue that there has never been a LCC partnership/codeshare in place, LCC's are notorious for being innovative and surprising everyone - so I wouldn't put this behind them. I found an interesting article, albeit 2 years old, I thought I'd share:

TSE.com WestJet News

WestJet looks for U.S. partner
Keith McArthur 00:00 EDT Friday, July 26, 2002

WestJet Airlines Ltd. is looking to team up with Southwest Airlines Co. or another no-frills carrier when it expands to the United States within the next three years.

Mark Hill, the company's vice-president of strategic planning, said that by working with a U.S. discount airline, WestJet could greatly expand the number of U.S. destinations it could market to passengers.

"When we go to the States, we'd be quite keen on doing something with a like-minded carrier to starburst out from somebody else's hub," Mr. Hill said in an interview.

Since it launched service in 1996 with two aircraft, WestJet has said it would eventually fly into the United States. The Calgary-based low-cost carrier, which will have 37 planes in its fleet by the end of the year, already runs charter flights to holiday destinations like Las Vegas.

WestJet officials have said the airline is two to three years away from flying into the United States.

But Mr. Hill said scheduled transborder flights could come sooner if the right kind of deal could be reached with Dallas-based Southwest Airlines, the pioneer of low-cost airlines.

"There isn't a like-minded airline in the world that wouldn't love to do something with Southwest, but at the end of the day, it's up to them to make a call. And if they want to do something with us, we will certainly build that into a business plan and see if it makes sense to us," Mr. Hill said.

In the past, both WestJet and Southwest have shied away from working with other carriers to transfer passengers (interlining) or share flight codes on aircraft.

But Mr. Hill said WestJet would reconsider that position if it could reach the right kind of deal with a U.S. partner.

Southwest spokeswoman Whitney Eichinger said the Dallas-based discounter has no plans to enter into any interlining or code-sharing agreements "at this time." But, she added, it is a Southwest rule to never say never.

Sam Barone, an independent airline analyst based in Ottawa, said a strategic alliance between WestJet and Southwest makes a lot of sense because the carriers are so similar.

He said WestJet could fly into a single destination in the United States -- say Chicago Midway Airport -- from which Southwest could carry passengers on to other U.S. cities.

Such an agreement could boost revenue for both carriers, Mr. Barone said.

"This is really the last frontier of the low-cost carrier in my view. There's never been a continental low-cost carrier between Canada and the United States. And so this might work."

Michael Linenberg, an analyst with Merrill Lynch in New York, said a WestJet-Southwest alliance has some merit. But he said that with the U.S. industry in such rough shape, he can't see it being a priority for Southwest.

Mr. Linenberg said a deal between WestJet and any U.S. discount carrier would have little impact on other airlines serving the transborder market.

"Air Canada would certainly lose some traffic, but I think it would be modest. It would be share shift, but lets call it minimal to modest."

Analysts said that in addition to Southwest, WestJet might pursue strategic alliances with other major no-frills airlines including New York-based JetBlue Airways Corp. or Orlando-based AirTran Airways, the operating unit of AirTran Holdings Inc.

Carla Frio, a spokeswoman for JetBlue, said the airline doesn't do any interlining, but isn't philosophically opposed to the idea.



EH.
User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3420 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3071 times:

Caribb: UA Express is currently ACA (soon to be Independance Air) and will transfer over to Trans States in Feb. Neither operator does much point to point within thier partnership with UA. It could happen but AC makes the most sense. There would also be connections over YUL that could help justify the AC service. Lets put it this way, knowing what I know about the PVD market, if put my own money into it, YUL would be on my very short list of nonstop service to be added (with the right sized aircraft - 19 seater) FLL/PBI/MIA, IAH, LAS, STL would be my others (that are feasibly reachable from PVD's short runways).

User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3040 times:

Southwest would be a good match for WestJet in terms of transborder ops or in an outright codeshare alliance. Their products are comparable, and they could use each others' ground handlers and maintenance facilities and AMEs without having to do much in terms of aircraft-type or procedures training, or having to contract out. And WestJet also has a long-running company "friendship" with Southwest Airlines, since nearly Day One of their operation.

I think YYC is the base WS is waiting for, in order to start transborder ops. You'll notice that Clive Beddoe stated over a year ago that WestJet was hoping to start transborder ops by fall of 2003 - which incidentally coincided with the opening of new transborder gates at YYC's "D" concourse. However, the "D" concourse project was pushed back due to financial concerns and so on with the Calgary Airport Authority, and now the new timetable for its opening is Fall 2004 - which is rumoured to be the new timetable for WestJet opening up sched routes down south.

YYC is the most obvious choice for WestJet to start transborder ops from, as over 25% of the airline's traffic goes through that one hub - and I think that's almost double their next station's traffic. Nearly 50% of WS' pax that go through YYC are connecting to other destinations. They no doubt have the infrastructure in YYC to offer connections to US destinations, more than any other base in their system.

WestJet also has its own in-house ground handlers in YYC, which most likely helps quite a bit in terms of OTP and holding a higher standard of efficiency and so on; I've heard a few folks at WestJet describe the difference between ground handling in YYC and other WS bases as quite noticeable....



"Talk to me, Goose..."
User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3030 times:

I read a rumour that Hamilton was in discussions with jetBlue.
-UN



What now?
User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3008 times:

PVD757

Yeah TF Green airport would is in a neat little geographical pocket, there's a big (and often rather affluent) catchment area extending from most of the Cape in the East, to Southern Mass. and a good chunk of Connecticut the West. Large area, and sure should be able to support at least 19 seater service to YUL at least a few times weekly anyway.

A couple things though, AC's corporately still in a mess, nobody even knows yet for sure who the main equity sponsor's going to be as they restructure under the court's guidance and creditor protection. I think they're too blinded by all this firefighting to get Jazz (who would be the ones flying the flight of course) to try out the route. And the second thing is, YUL's still an airport with major problems, at least until they get the badly-needed new Canada Customs and baggage claim facilities up and running. Which for transborder passengers won't be available til this Autumn at the earliest, so it's unfortunately going to be another lineup crunch, baggage jam at the carousels, long walk to Customs and so on again for Transborder arriving passengers this winter, spring and summertime.

Maybe in the fall if AC's got its act together and when the new airport facilities are up and running they'll give it a go. I hope so because even just looking at a map of NE it's clear that the route has to make a good deal of sense, especially for a modestly-sized plane and all.


User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3420 posts, RR: 16
Reply 22, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2990 times:

Mark D. Thanks for the input, I didn't realize the situation at YUL. I do know that AC is a mess, that's why it's no big deal right now, but I just hope someone else (Air Canada perhaps) can someday see the potential that I do in that route. Not looking for anything crazy, just a couple flights a day like you said. Anyway, thanks again for the info! I always look at AC route structure/schedule and scratch my head. It seems that if they just applied some basic logic to thier network (matching supply and demand better, etc.) and time thier YYZ schedule better... well you know what I mean. They just seem so scattered in everything. Routes, aircraft types, products (jazz, zip, tango, R & B, Pop, waltz, button, and whatever musical genre or means of fastening things they come up with). They should just simplify things. Start with thier top O & D markets and deploy thier largest sized aircraft on those routes based on the number of seats needed and continue down the list and timing the flights through YYZ to offer better connecting complexes to maximize the hub and spoke concept or something. Outside of the 6 or 7 large Canadian cities (YYZ, YVR, YUL, YQB, YYC, YEG, YHM, etc.), thier shouldn't be much point to point. It is a simple east-west hub set-up with service to the major US cities. I'm not and expert here, just seems to be more complicated than it really is.

User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2971 times:

PVD757-- I didn't realize the situation at YUL.

Well it's not as bad as it was this time last year --whoa nellie, pretty much nothing at that time that was being worked on was open for business yet. In a bit of a twist of luck traffic was still significantly down due to the aftermath of Sept.11 of course, just as it was elsewhere in the World and on the continent but still, the situation then in the terminal was what I'd call bad. Now with the brand-new Transborder pier opened up for almost a year now it's starting to look like a modern big-city airport --the only really-big part of that area that still needs finishing is the new Customs Hall and baggage claim that I was talking about earlier, and which for transborder flyers is supposed to be available come this November.

And in the food and retail court -- which was heavily boarded up a year ago and which they partially boarded up different parts of again a couple months ago to redo the largest restaurant and restore the "Jazz Bar" that disappeared in the first round a year ago-- actually is starting to look quite nice. That 'largest restaurant' they just opened up for business right before Christmastime and the resuscitated Jazz Bar apparently is only about ten days away now. They just have to finish off a bit of the interior lighting in the area but there's plenty of space now --seating for maybe five or six hundred there, all told-- and probably a bit of a late-evening ambiance too there as well (Jazz Bar's probably going to be open til about Midnight, just like "Cafe-Bar" already is now, and even the big new restaurant closes down shortly before 11)

So it's coming along. Just that they're working on the airport really-incrementally, that's all. The badly-needed new International pier (and link to the new Customs hall and baggage claim rooms) supposed to be up and running in about sixteen months or so. Then they start work on the domestic side, the road traffic circle and U.S. pre-clearance area, maybe a light-rail train line into the terminal. Lot of stuff yet but from the looks of it at least it's getting there.


I do know that AC is a mess, that's why it's no big deal right now, but I just hope someone else (Air Canada perhaps) can someday see the potential that I do in that route. Not looking for anything crazy, just a couple flights a day like you said.

Oh I said a few times weekly, actually! (Though I guess it would have to be daily, to be really useful. Especially since a 19-seater wouldn't be a big fleet commitment for it anyway). A little while ago I checked the T.F. Green airport website flight info and noticed they had two AC flights to YYZ listed for today (something like an 11am departure and one at 4pm), so I thought that was pretty good actually. An additional morning AC arrival from and departure to YUL would of course be nice to see along with those though.

I always look at AC route structure/schedule and scratch my head. It seems that if they just applied some basic logic to thier network (matching supply and demand better, etc.) and time thier YYZ schedule better... well you know what I mean. They just seem so scattered in everything. Routes, aircraft types, products (jazz, zip, tango, R & B, Pop, waltz, button, and whatever musical genre or means of fastening things they come up with). They should just simplify things.


Yeah it's been a mess kind of ever since the Canadian airlines merger in '99, actually. And unfortunately a lot of the 'logic' behind route choices made predatorily to ward off competitors or even would-be competitors :- / Though nowadays being in such rough shape internally (and the competitors being in rather good shape, especially WestJet) it's becoming ever harder for them to push competition around as even their own domestic market share is declining on top of it all. And as for the kaleidoscope of Brand-names well at least Tango is gone now --was sort of a marketing ploy anyway in the wake of Sept.11 to start revamping the mainline cost structure and introduce the notion to the various unions rank and file, which now seems to be more than firmly in place across the board so it's no longer needed. It still is plenty funny and zany though, I agree. lol


Start with thier top O & D markets and deploy thier largest sized aircraft on those routes based on the number of seats needed and continue down the list and timing the flights through YYZ to offer better connecting complexes to maximize the hub and spoke concept or something. Outside of the 6 or 7 large Canadian cities (YYZ, YVR, YUL, YQB, YYC, YEG, YHM, etc.), thier shouldn't be much point to point. It is a simple east-west hub set-up with service to the major US cities. I'm not and expert here, just seems to be more complicated than it really is.

Well for the domestic market Canada is I guess one of the best examples of a point-to-point territory for any coast-to-coast carrier --WestJet implements this the best, offering everything from their longest longhaul of YVR-YUL all the way down to four-or-five-stop milk runs that pretty much span a good chunk of the country, to stuff in between like YUL-YWG which they're saying they'll be offering in a few months' time.

For transborder ops, it's still mostly a handful of small hubs --with YUL and YYC at the top and then YWG, YEG, YOW -- along with a couple of big hubs --YYZ and YVR. YYZ of course by far the biggest cahuna, especially with so many eligible destinations throughout the Midwest and along the Eastern seaboard.

I agree though that there should be more logic-- and longevity-- to AC's route decisions and announcements. Let's hope this year is the first time in a long while that something happens there from them in that department, especially when it comes to domestic and transborder flights.


User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3420 posts, RR: 16
Reply 24, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2929 times:

Thanks again Mark, good exchange of ideas, appreciate the insight.

User currently offlineFly_yhm From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 1681 posts, RR: 10
Reply 25, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2878 times:

Yhm could use some transborder but not until the new terminal gets completed in a few years or so. They do have a catchment area of 1.7 million people the live closest to yhm not to mention people that do drive from outside the catchment area. Flights to NYC BOS ORD(MDW) would probably do well. the Jetblue rumor has been floating around in the media for a while. It would be cool and could work with some sort of Westjet alliance. Also Niagara Falls Canada is booming YHM could become the greater Niagara Hamilton Airport especially with the Airport expressway being build and the Redhill Creek Expressway and possibly the mid pen highway there will be some great highway access. Just some imput.


Where will you spend eternity? He,s more real then you think!!!!!
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