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Flash Airlines: Banned By Swiss!  
User currently offlineCapt.Fantastic From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 724 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5928 times:

Official: Swiss banned airline
Sunday, January 4, 2004 Posted: 9:48 AM EST (1448 GMT)

BERN, Switzerland (AP) -- The Egyptian charter company whose plane crashed into the Red Sea killing 148 people had been banned from flying to Switzerland for more than a year because of technical problems, a civil aviation official said Sunday.

"A series of safety shortcomings showed up in a plane of Flash Airlines during a routine security check at Zurich Airport in October 2002," said Celestine Perissinotto, spokeswoman for the Swiss Federal Office for Civil Aviation, confirming Swiss and French television reports.

She told The Associated Press that she was unable to go into detail and did not know what type of plane had problems in Switzerland, but that she understood the company had two airliners.

The plane that crashed after takeoff from Sharm El-Sheik, Egypt, Saturday was a Boeing 737. Everyone on board was killed. Most of the passengers were French tourists.

Flash Airlines said in Egypt that the 737 that crashed was one of two it owned.

Perissinotto declined to go into detail about the shortcomings of the company.

"It concerned violations of the regulations of the International Civil Aviation Organization," she said.

Perissinotto said the Swiss report was given both to the airline and to Egyptian civil aviation authorities.

"Since then we have had no reaction," Perissinotto said.

French Transport Minister Gilles de Robien said neither he nor his ministry knew of the Swiss ban. He told Europe-1 radio that he had heard "it was more for economic reasons that this company did not fly over Switzerland."

"I call for extreme caution with this type of announcement that adds emotion for families who certainly don't need it at the moment," he said.

Although Flash Airlines has been banned from entering or flying over Switzerland since October 2002, one of its planes was allowed to make a landing in Geneva last year for exceptional reasons, Perissinotto said, confirming a report in the weekly newspaper SonntagsBlick.

That plane was supposed to land in Paris but was diverted to Geneva because of bad weather, she said.

Swiss authorities demanded that the airline explain why it had needed to land in Geneva rather than another airport, but "these explanations were also insufficient. The situation had not improved."


38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4119 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5831 times:

Hello

There were also some aircraft interior pictures of a Flash Airlines 737 in the SonntagsBlick newspaper today.

If the technical part of the aircraft was maintained like the interior then...

RJ100



none
User currently offlineCapt.Fantastic From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 724 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5647 times:

Where the findings of these maintenance short-comings by the Swiss made available to other countries that Flash flew into? If so, maybe this accident could have been averted? I'm sure if the French were aware of this they would not have allowed Flash into their country.

User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 3, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5612 times:

The really strange part is that Egypt is now actually stating that Flash was safe and that the statement from the Swiss side that Flash "never responded to the Swiss concerns" was "inaccurate and baseless".

Let's wait and see how far both sides will go on this sideline-discussion...

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineTrident2e From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5611 times:

It would have been the responsibility of the Egyptian aviation authority as a member of ICAO to act on this information. If no action was taken by them then they have some difficult questions to answer.

User currently offlineTokolosh From Netherlands, joined Sep 2001, 366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5598 times:

The answer to that is yes, according to BBC and CNN. Both Egypt and France were informed about the Swiss ban on Flash Airlines. It was also reported by CNN that a Flash aircraft made an emergency landing in Zurich after the ban had been imposed because of "bad weather". The Swiss authorities asked for a full explanation but never got a satisfactory one. An Italian passenger took video coverage upon disembarkation of the right engine which had its cowls open and appeared to be smoking.
You might find that footage on cnn's site.



Did the chicken or the egg get laid first?
User currently offlineCodeshare From Poland, joined Sep 2002, 1854 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5581 times:

There was supposed to be a flight from HRG or SSH by Flash to Warsaw. The flight eventually got cancelled.




How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
User currently offlineAirways From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 880 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5562 times:

...Flash aircraft made an emergency landing in Zurich

Wasn't that an emergency landing in Geneva, en route to Paris?

Michael
http://airsider.net


User currently offlineTokolosh From Netherlands, joined Sep 2001, 366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5549 times:

It thought they reported Zurich, but maybe I'm wrong on that. In any case, in Switzerland.


Did the chicken or the egg get laid first?
User currently offlineSR3496 From Switzerland, joined May 2000, 792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5526 times:

It was Geneva and not Zurich.

User currently offlineTokolosh From Netherlands, joined Sep 2001, 366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5501 times:

OK. And I forgot to say the reports mentioned it is not known if it is the same plane that crashed.


Did the chicken or the egg get laid first?
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 11, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5500 times:

I'm actually surprised that Flash was not banned from the EU as well - I would have expected that a ban by Switzerland would also be looked at by the JAA (or whoever is responsible for that).

If the situation is/was really as it's being described here and in the news, I don't doubt that they'd've been banned...



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineAirways From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 880 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5490 times:

I found the report with the information about the GVA incident again. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3367661.stm

Michael
http://airsider.net


User currently offlineTokolosh From Netherlands, joined Sep 2001, 366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5441 times:

Airways, thanks for posting that latest report. Gosh, it looks like heads are going to roll on this one. Already people are pointing fingers at each other.


Did the chicken or the egg get laid first?
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 14, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5435 times:

This is getting stranger by the minute... now it's not only Egypt saying that the Swiss claims are/were baseless - but now, Airways - thanks for the link, France says that it had no knowledge of Flash being banned from Switzerland...

I'm getting the feeling that coordination within Europe (EU and non-EU countries) must be improved - if a complete ban of an airline can be declared without the others noticing it...

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineTokolosh From Netherlands, joined Sep 2001, 366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5375 times:

Switzerland is not part of the EU but, still, that's not excuse for a lack of coordination. Indeed, this is getting stranger by the hour. Finger pointing, as I said.


Did the chicken or the egg get laid first?
User currently offlineAirways From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 880 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5336 times:

...Switzerland is not part of the EU...

That really can't be an excuse. There must be some kind of standard procedure for such cases. I think time will tell whether France knew about the reports or not. The news about the Swiss ban came up today - a sunday. Sure, some people have already given statements to the press, but it will probably need a bit more time to see whether the French got the report or not.

And even if only the government of Egypt got the report. Why didn't they take action then? That is the most important question here!

By the way, why haven't they be banned or warned by other countries? Switzerland can't be the only country to do such routine tests...

Michael


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16281 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5305 times:

Switzerland is not part of the EU but, still, that's not excuse for a lack of coordination.

I agree.....all EU nations should have immediately assessed Flash Airways safety in Oct 2002 when this came out. Maybe those 148 French citizens would still be alive today......




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineTokolosh From Netherlands, joined Sep 2001, 366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5240 times:

When I mentioned the Italian filming the plane upon debarcation, it was actually another incident. I think the plane made an emergency landing in Bologna. That's two incidents then, which raises more questions about why about why they could still continue flying all over the place. By the way, has anything been heard from Flash Airways itself yet?


Did the chicken or the egg get laid first?
User currently offlineFraT From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 1107 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5202 times:

The problem is that every country has it's own agency which is responsible for aviation security. They are trying for some time to build up an European agency at least for the EU countries but so far it hasn't happened because some countries don't want to give up their authority.
This miscommunication was also one reason for the inflight crash of the DHL and the Bashkirian A/C in southern Germany last year.


User currently offlineSkymonster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5139 times:

We are a million miles away from common certification, common standards, and shared and agreed lists of banned airlines. The US FAA banned a number of foreign airlines from using US airspace in the early '90s due to maintenance concerns (Dominican Repulic, for example), but that didn't mean those airlines were automatically banned from the rest of the world. The Swiss are not part of the JAA, and whilst I agree that there would be some advantages there's no automatic obligation for what the Swiss decide to be applied by other countries.

Andy


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 21, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5111 times:

Skymonster, you're absolutely right - but I would have expected at least some form of information going out to other European countries (ones that could possible be served by Flash Airlines)... but it's probably too early to say if other countries were informed - and if they were, I'd guess that they'll have some explaining to do as to why they judged Flash Airlines to be safe.



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineM404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2226 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5107 times:
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"A series of safety shortcomings showed up in a plane of Flash Airlines during a routine security check at Zurich Airport in October 2002,"

"It concerned violations of the regulations of the International Civil Aviation Organization," she said.


"it was more for economic reasons that this company did not fly over Switzerland."


After reading all the above quotes I note that one says "Security check" another mentions rule violations and a third proposes economic reasons. Not one mentions mechanical reasons. Perhaps security was the reason to begin with. If it was I next wonder if such security shortcomings will in fact ever be released to avoid a blueprint for watching terrorists. Not that the press in America hasn't already told everyone with a cause exactly how to do it before.

Just a thought. We need to find out what "security" means to these entities.



Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16281 posts, RR: 56
Reply 23, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5028 times:

whilst I agree that there would be some advantages there's no automatic obligation for what the Swiss decide to be applied by other countries.

There's no legal obligation, but you would think that this Swiss banning would have triggered some review of Flash Airways on a voluntary basis.





Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineTokolosh From Netherlands, joined Sep 2001, 366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 years 8 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4987 times:

Well, perhaps this accident will lead to lots of improvements for the future. Hopefully.


Did the chicken or the egg get laid first?
25 777ER : Heard on the 6pm News that the plane could have had suffered a mechanical problem just after take off!
26 Unique : Which aircraft did crash? Some reports to be SU-ZCF while a.net reports to be SU-ZCD...
27 RJ100 : Hello I have just found this article (sorry, only in German). It says that the French authorities have been immediately informed by the Swiss after th
28 Post contains links Airways : Obviously, the report has been forwarded to the French authorities. Here's another link, this time in French: http://www.leparisien.fr/home/info/faitj
29 F+ Rouge : French radio stations confirm that the French authorities had been informed by the Swiss, but that three random security checks did not show any maint
30 Debonair : Yeap! I would like to point this out! French minister of aviation, Mr. Gilles de Robien, stated today that the French authority's couldn't find any vi
31 BRU : How could the Egypt government so quickly and decidedly exclude "foul play" ? The airframe and black boxes are out of reach. Were there other indicat
32 Post contains links Teva : I have just seen something very interesting on the DGAC website (French civil aviation) http://www.dgac.fr/html/actu_gd/fsh604.htm This is in French o
33 AviationMaster : Just found this on Bluewin's website (only in german): In der Kontroverse mit dem Carrier Flash Airlines hat das Bundesamt für Zivilluftfahrt (BAZL)
34 Post contains links Airways : The FOCA (BAZL) has just released a press release about the whole story. There aare some interesting details about the test details and the distributi
35 ClipperNo1 : I don't get why this checks are not made public right made. Okay, they will most likely destroy the airline, but hey if they can't keep their sh*t tog
36 Jmc757 : Clipper.... maybe you have a point. It would kill the airlines, but like you say, should they be flying. Perhaps this sort of information should be ma
37 Varig md-11 : the "we told you so" behavior coming from ZRH is a bit peculiar:FSH flights were not only flying to CDG but also to Spain, Italy, Poland....and nobody
38 ClipperNo1 : JMC757...Putting foreign charter-airlines in a bad light in general is the last thing I want to do, because that is IMO an act of narrow-minding. Ther
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