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Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?  
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4571 times:

Title pretty much says it all.

Are there any circumstances which would have prevented WN from doing at JFK what B6 has done (i.e., muscling its way to the top)?

Did they ever seriously look at the possibility of JFK ops? NYC remains a glaring weakness in their system, with no alterative likely.

74 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2983 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4518 times:

I'm sure they considered it when they started ISP service, but I believe they decided against the three NYC airports due to what they perceived as too much congestion to allow their type of quick-turnaround operation. IMHO, yes, they did drop the ball at least to some extent, since it does not look like they will be a significant player in the NYC market in the foreseeable future. My guess is that, had they known how wildly successful JetBlue would be at JFK, they would have jumped in there while they had a chance. But hindsight is 20/20, and we'll never know for sure...


Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5625 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4449 times:

I wouldn't call New York a "glaring weakness" in WN's route system as ISP is a reasonable distance from the city and from parts of the metro area. I certainly see enough airport pax using the railroad connection into Manhattan every day. It's really only New Jersey and the northern suburbs (Westchester, Rockland etc.) that are far enough from ISP that they can be said to lack WN service. And some of the New Jersey suburbs will be within reasonable distance from WN's new station at PHL.


"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16793 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4382 times:

The problem WN faces is that B6 cut them off from NYC, basically relegating WN at Islip to Long Island and "some" Queens traffic.

Less people are likely to make the trek out to Islip to fly WN when JFK and B6 are significantly closer to the majority of the 25 Million NYC Area residents, the LIRR station at Islip will help but does not hold a candle to the convenience of the Airtrain service at JFK with it's connections to LIRR and NYC Subway.

It has been said (by myself here, and industry "experts") that WN's experience in the NYC market is the main reason why they went into PHL when everybody else was predicting Allentown, Trenton, Atlantic City etc..

Jetblue and the geography of the Northeast has forced WN to rethink their policy of serving airports on the "outskirts" of major Cities to take advantage of less delays and cheaper operating costs, in Southern California, Florida or Texas where Cities are spread out and the populations sprawled out over a vast areas the WN plan works.

In the Northeast where populations are highly concentrated and roads heavily congested people will avoid long drives by any costs, meaning WN was not going to draw from NYC proper tremendously with Islip to begin with. B6 trumped them by launching their service at JFK, where they lucked out by TWA being bought by AA and ending up with T-6 virtually to themselves within two years of their launching service.

It also helps that NYC's Senate delagation (Shumer), Giulianni, the Port Authority etc came to bat for B6 because they promised the first thing they would do is to launch flights from JFK to Upstate NY and drop the astronomical fares. That was a political decison which actualy worked and lowered the fares, which began the Media love affair with B6 in NYC as the Politicians were taunting them to the NY Post etc every chance they got which gave a certain amount of credibility to the airline in the eyes of the Media and therefore the public.

The only way WN could try to steal B6's NYC thunder is to go to JFK or EWR, EWR has no gates and it's delays make PHL look like Pierre South Dakota and lighting striking twice at JFK for both B6 and WN is highly unlikely. It would be an uphill battle all the way, and similar problem may develop for WN in the Boston area. Depending on how well B6 establishes themselves at Logan, and to what extent they are successful.

Im not saying that WN's Islip, Manchester and Providence Rhode Island operations are not going to continue to be profitable. However Im sure the boys in Dallas are going to have to do something they don't often do, rework their projections for growth in the Northeast "downward".

Unless WN's decides to make a go of it in EWR or JFK I see little hope of them getting a foot in the door of the largest aviation market in the WORLD!

Newburgh, maybe but it's further from the City than Islip and the population starts thinning in numbers and size of wallet the further North you go from Rockland and Westchester Counties.

Westchester County airport is out of the question for WN, Nimby's make the rules at the airport so much so that they had the parking garages closed before 7Am to discourage early morning flights.

The only other area airport would be Trenton NJ, too close to their "new" PHL operation though, it will be interesting to see how WN plays things over the next couple years in the Northeast (particularly the NYC area).





Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinePetazulu From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4310 times:

I have an idea- How about Southwest sets up 1-2 gate operation at all 3 NYC airports and feed those flights directly to other larger SW operations. These planes could be isolated to only NYC routes- which would avoid systemwide delays. It also would allow SW to generate huge feed for all the rest of their flights.

I know that isn't their style- but in order to get into New York City, do you think it could be considered? NYC is kind of unique in that way- there is presently no other viable airport than one of the big three if you really want to compete for our business.



User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2983 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4259 times:

PROSA, I don't think many people west of the Queens/Nassau border use ISP on a regular basis. I have actually never met anyone who has traveled from Manhattan to fly out of ISP. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it definitely isn't common. ISP has a large market of its own, but it's really a separate market from NYC. I still do not see WN as a major player in the NYC market.


Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5153 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4228 times:

Not going into JFK may explain why WN went into PHL. Normally, WN avoids congested airports, and PHL is congested. My wife used to fly to PHL a lot for business, and her departures were always late, simply because of the volume of traffic.



User currently offlineSwafa30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4120 times:

Honestly, I wonder if we had entered metro NYC prior to B6 if we would have enjoyed their same level of success. It would seem that it would require a pretty fancy crowbar to pry fliers in that market away from the grip of the legacy carriers. Low fares alone might not have been enough to get the job done. Arguably, it was going to require a superior if not at least comparable product to appeal to the NYC market. Back when B6 was starting up at JFK we were still all about orange airplanes and brown upholstered seats. Not that I don't have faith in our product. However, the essence of sales is really knowing your product and marketing it to the appropriate buyer. Nothing against the good people of Islip(they have indeed served us well) but I have a feeling that the powers that be correctly assumed that folks in the burbs of Long Island might be more Southwest's cup of tea than the average Manhattanite. I would not doubt that it's tough for the higher ups to watch F9 thrive in Denver and FL in Atlanta. JFK, ATL, and DIA may indeed always be the ones that got away. Perhaps there is something to be said for knowing when to pick your battles.

User currently offlineRiverVisualNYC From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 930 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4036 times:

Historically, the closer you get to NYC, the more expensive it is to operate anything, especially an airline. Serving JFK (or LGA or EWR) would not really be in keeping with WN's secondary/tertiary low-cost airport philosophy. JetBlue has managed to set up at JFK and succeed largely because of the huge amount of capital it committed to JFK up front, and the legislative assistance it got from Senator Schumer among others in exchange for agreeing to offer low-fare service to previously under-served and economically depressed communities in upstate New York.

User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3964 times:

>>>That was a political decison which actualy worked and lowered the fares, which began the Media love affair with B6 in NYC as the Politicians were taunting them to the NY Post etc every chance they got which gave a certain amount of credibility to the airline in the eyes of the Media and therefore the public.


STT757,

Loved your analysis...but I think you meant "touting"  Big grin



User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4487 posts, RR: 33
Reply 10, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3956 times:

Honestly, I wonder if we had entered metro NYC prior to B6 if we would have enjoyed their same level of success. It would seem that it would require a pretty fancy crowbar to pry fliers in that market away from the grip of the legacy carriers. Low fares alone might not have been enough to get the job done. Arguably, it was going to require a superior if not at least comparable product to appeal to the NYC market.

ConcordeBoy is correct; Southwest did drop the ball on NYC, which I have been arguing for some time. Yes, Southwest would have enjoyed JetBlue's level of success had they entered JFK. People Express didn't have IFE either, and they were a huge success in the NYC market before they mismanaged and leveraged themselves to death. Southwest's low fares and outstanding customer service *are* a in many ways superior product to much of what the Cartel was offering in the late '90s, and today. Fears of massive delays proved unfounded, as JetBlue figured creative ways to get planes in and out of the region's airspace, and of course JFK itself isn't congested on the ground for much of the day.

Manhattan is a quarter of the NYC population; even if they for whatever reason didn't flock to Southwest, others would. Lots of folks in Jackson Heights, Jamaica Bay, Flatbush, and Whitestone would have flocked to Southwest. Nassau County alone is what, a million and a half people mostly closer to JFK than Islip?

NYC also isn't Boston, where MHT and PVD are medium-size commercial airports conveniently located and available for big swaths of the Boston metro area. ISP as noted by others is great for much of Long Island but not NYC. Teterboro, HPN, Trenton, and Grumman are flat-out unavailable to mainline commercial traffic for various reasons. For a new LCC entrant, it's one of the Big Three airports or nothing. Southwest gambled on Nothing, and that's what they have in the City.

No question, Southwest has lost a big advantage in the Northeast by missing the boat in NYC. As STT757 notes, they didn't make the same mistake in Philadelphia. WN learns from its mistakes.

Jim


User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4487 posts, RR: 33
Reply 11, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3912 times:

Teterboro, HPN, Trenton, and Grumman are flat-out unavailable to mainline commercial traffic for various reasons.

At HPN, I mean *additional* mainline commercial traffic. The rich NIMBY neighbors as others have noted go ape anytime someone suggests more air service. Guess they really enjoy crawling along 95 through the Bronx marshlands to wait in huge lines for tolls at the Bronx-Whitestone bridge.

Jim


User currently offlineDragon-wings From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3973 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3842 times:

What would happen to ISP flights if Southwest ever decided to serve JFK?


Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
User currently offlineEmbqa From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3788 times:

You'll see Hell freeze over before you will ever see Southwest in EWR, JFK or LGA. Here is your basic-standard JFK day......and this is in GOOD WEATHER. 45min - to a 1.5 hour taxi delay..!! There goes your 20 minute turns...!!!
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Rajesh Changela




"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineJfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3354 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3775 times:

In order to understand why JetBlue is so successful at JFK, you have to understand the mentality of New Yorkers. JetBlue is a LCC, but it's hip, chique, and hot. Song has done a good job with this as well.
Southwest has never marketed itself as anything like this. While this may work in Houston, its overall product doesn't appeal to a New Yorker (specifically a Manhattanite) It's the same reason why there isn't a WalMart anywhere near the five boroughs of New York City, but many Targets. Target can appeal to New Yorkers, WalMart can't.
It's a matter of product differentiation: JetBlue has the right product for the city, WN doesn't.
As for JFK, it has long been thought of as "too far" and "inconvenient," another ridiculous notion that NYers have. Luckily for B6, when they started ops at JFK, LGA was experiencing the worst delays in the history of aviation thanks to the Air-21 Bill, which lifted slot restrictions for RJs at LGA.
It was at that point that an extra 20 minutes on the Van Wyck looked a lot better than a 2-hour delay on the runway at LGA.
B6 used to market this well by saying they operated from New York's most on-time airport. I was even on a few flights where the Captain would say, "Looks like you chose the right airline and right airport. We'll be departing on-time but LGA is experiencing 2 hour delays."


User currently offlineLhr001 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3703 times:

Southwest and its marketing has a lot to be desired... I am not a fan of Jet Blue by any means .. However Jet Blue can market in a very hip and trendy manner. The same is afforded by Song. New Yorkers are a very good crowd they are a mix of everything and coming from a city that has it all like New York you expect the same in the air...

Call Southwest Airlines, you will get recorded music to some 1970's Hillbilly tune.... When the people respond they are one of two things rude or slap stick like the inflight at Southwest. To see a New York City airport serve Southwest Airlines would be to the liking of the Beverly Hillbillies when they arrived in Beverly Hills... Southwest is an airline that doesnt market for business... It seems to coddle the image of families and leisure travelers...

New Yorkers, take flying seriously... You wont find New Yorkers laughing at the not so funny Southwest Flight Attendant and their campy announcements and in-flight songs....

This round.... (New York)..... belongs to Jet Blue and Song for effectively marketing a very New York crowd!


LHR001


User currently offlineAnsettAW From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 205 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3628 times:

LHR001 -- for someone who boasts years of serving as a top-notch employee of a mysterious top-notch airline, you seem to have such an arrogant and elitist attitude, one that would not translate well into quality customer service. I think that's what is most revealing about your posts -- the disdain you have for those individuals who don't fall into your exclusive multi-lingual (yeah sure) Glamorama world of make-believe.


Snap, Krackle, and Pop are thinly veiled emblems for the Trilateral Commission.
User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4487 posts, RR: 33
Reply 17, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3597 times:

Preach it, AnsettAW. At least LHR001 didn't cut-and-paste his ten-column-inch Song press release that he's dropped into other threads.

Jfklganyc--People Express wasn't "hip, chique (sp?) and hot." So why were they so massively successful in the New York market until they destroyed themselves? Answer: People *everywhere* love low fares and getting airborne to places they want to go. That's the bottom line, "hip town" or not.

Jim


User currently offlineSwafa30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3552 times:

People Express didn't have IFE either, and they were a huge success in the NYC market before they mismanaged and leveraged themselves to death

Was People Express already operating as carrier a and entered the New York market? Or, did they launch their operation from New York, a la jetBlue? The fact that jetBlue was an unknown entity may have worked to their advantage. I have learned to accept that deserved or not, Southwest sometimes has a reputation as a low-class operation. Hence, the constant comparisons to a certain global discount retail chain. No perception of a company is one thing. Overcoming a negative perception can be quite another. We may indeed provide a better level of customer service. But, if people are unwilling to give you a shot, what difference does it make.



User currently offlineLhr001 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3516 times:

So.... you are saying WN would do well! Ha Ha! You wouldnt dare see the Hamptons crowd touch one of the putrid and horrid 737's with a 10 foot pole!

AnsettAW...

Dont be upset...... I like me new title you have given me."Arrogant and Elitest"...actually that is a campy title... I rather enjoyed that... I will have to bring that up in May when our crowd heads out to our parents summer homes in the Hamptons!

You know we are the ones out in the Hamptons from May to September playing Tennis, Tanning, throwing parties for both new and old money...and Shopping at Gucci, Max Mara, and Louis Vuitton at the Americana at Manhasset... with our parents money!  Smile
.. I probably lost you on that one... You wouldn't know most of it if you were not prevy to the Hamptons of New York social... "in-scene"!

Have you ever heard of the phrase... "Diplomatic", "Wealthy"... Some of us do have the experience and the money to say and do what we want... You shouldnt be envious that one has more "Full Service" airline experience than yourself! Dont knock a person because they may have more "international", "luxury", or "class".... Sorry.. You cant buy class.. You are born with it... Some of us were born with a very shinny and glistening platinum spoon in our mouth... Myself one of them! Envy is very nasty!...By the way a person such as myself is refered to as a "Dual Citizen", "Snob", "Rich B****", and now your title "Arrogant Elitest" how grand!...

Southwest Airlines is no People Express... have you forgotten the reach and nonstops that People Express offered...? Dont forget that People Express fed international flights from Newark as well! That is why Continental Airlines found People Express so attractive as a purchase!

LHR001

[Edited 2004-01-06 03:44:50]

User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3501 times:

If JetBlue cut off Southwest at JFK, When can I book my next JetBlue flight to Kansas City? St. Louis? Chicago maybe? Nashville? Cleveland? Houston? The list goes on....

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16793 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3463 times:

The Jetblue story closely follows the PeoplExpress story, they use a generally "less crowded" (at the time) airport and the Port Authority goes out of their way to provide them with facilities (North Terminal at EWR, T-6 at JFK).

PeoplExpress was a startup from EWR, and was HUGELY popular. PeoplExpress had the same effect on EWR as B6 is currently having on JFK, PE within a couple years helped EWR almost single handidly become NYC's Busiest airport. B6 has had a similar effect at JFK where in '03 JFK was the busiest NYC airport for the first time in 7 years, all because of B6.

PeoplExpress was as barebones an "safe" airline operation could get, however they did "splurge" building a new Terminal (C) and buying Frontier.

B6 is as "elaborate" (for lack of a better term) as a LCC can get, kind of the opposite of PE. However B6 is ordering different aircraft (ERJ-190) and building a new Terminal at JFK, lets see where they are 7 years from now.

The Walmart in NYC comparison is not accurate as KMart has had Manhattan stores for years, one of their most successful stores is in the LIRR section of Penn Station.




Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently onlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4973 posts, RR: 21
Reply 22, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3446 times:

I think WN has looked at SWF at length. It is however, reasonbly close to ALB. If WN were to rethink their NYC strategy (or lack thereof) SWF makes the most sense. They may have "missed the boat" at JFK (though in hindsight avoiding all 3 NYC airports was a no-brainer), so why not surround NYC as much as possible? They musn't wait too long IMO, SWF will be tapped by someone else sooner or later as NYC options run out.


Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16793 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3423 times:

Goingboeing brings up another point to which I want to use to make a point..

He wrote..

"If JetBlue cut off Southwest at JFK, When can I book my next JetBlue flight to Kansas City? St. Louis? Chicago maybe? Nashville? Cleveland? Houston? "

Exactly, WN not only chose the wrong airport to serve NYC but they are also flying the wrong routes.

Nashville, St.Louis etc.. are not popular destinations for NYC travelers.

Florida, Puerto Rico, Las Vegas, California are the most popular destinations for NY'ers. And B6 offers a much more realistic route map that people actually want to fly from NY than WN, like Denver, Seattle etc..

Nashville etc. is at the bottom.

WN has to use a different formula for NY, one size does not fit all especially in NY.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinePBIflyguy From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 248 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3392 times:

DCA-ROC guy hit it on the head......If I ever start up a business , I am going to hire the marketing team from B6. B6 made it " cool " to fly an LCC. WN is "folksy" and middle America.

Even if the fares were decent, NYC folks would resist flying any airline that won't offer seat assignments. High power exec types can't or won't get to an airport 3 hours early just to get a decent seat. I know it is a small point, but I believe it is valid. We are talking about people who wait hours to eat at swank bistros and cafes, get into clubs, etc........the last thing they want to do is trek to JFK and board a packed flight cattle car style. Maybe WN was smarter than we think...... did they know their "style" wouldn't fly in NYC?

The true test would be if B6 started service from ISP. Would their loyal fans follow them? Seems to me that B6 could fill some of their new 190's with service to PBI, FLL, MCO, TPA.....maybe even JAX out of ISP


25 Swafa30 : Exactly, WN not only chose the wrong airport to serve NYC but they are also flying the wrong routes. If their route structure could not have supported
26 Frequentflier : Why do New Yorkers say that JFK is out of the way? Because it is! Except for a few locations, such as the south shore of Long Island and Brooklyn, JFK
27 Elwood64151 : One thing to remember about Islip is that there are 2 million people in Nassau County and nearly a million more further out on the island. JFK present
28 Post contains images AnsettAW : Dont be upset...... I like me new title you have given me."Arrogant and Elitest"...actually that is a campy title... I rather enjoyed that... I will h
29 Nycfuturepilot : Prosa- Nobody in the new york metro area would go all the way to PHL for WN. Its at least an hour and a half drive.
30 DCA-ROCguy : Exactly, WN not only chose the wrong airport to serve NYC but they are also flying the wrong routes. Nashville, St.Louis etc.. are not popular destina
31 Elwood64151 : Sorry.. You cant buy class.. You are born with it... Some of us were born with a very shinny and glistening platinum spoon in our mouth... Myself one
32 SWAFA30 : However odd a choice BNA seems on this list, it must make money or WN wouldn't fly three dailies. BNA offers a wide variety of connecting sevvice out
33 PROSA : Southwest has never marketed itself as anything like this. While this may work in Houston, its overall product doesn't appeal to a New Yorker (specifi
34 Lhr001 : Top Destinations for New Yorkers- Boston Ft. Lauderdale Las Vegas Los Angeles Miami Orlando Palm Beach San Francisco San Juan Washington D.C. Jet Blue
35 AnsettAW : Southwest Airlines does not belong on the New York City scene. Yeah, because everyone knows that the millions who live in NYC are all just part of on
36 STT757 : "Prosa- Nobody in the new york metro area would go all the way to PHL for WN. Its at least an hour and a half drive. It's a reasonable distance from p
37 Elwood64151 : Southwest Airlines and the country-esque image and marketing techniques are nothing in the skeam of things in New York City. First of all, it's spelle
38 RJpieces : Also, when WN and other locos enters a market they try to encourage new people to fly rather than just stealing customers away. WN would have done wel
39 Jfklganyc : I hate to agree with some of the snobish statements being made because I am pretty down to earth . . . However, I must agree. Take a trip around Manha
40 STT757 : " Newark was a newly renovated airport waiting for a tenant" PeoplExpress flew out of the Old North Terminal, which the larger carriers (AA, UAL, EA,
41 Elwood64151 : Jfklganyc: Once again, you are speaking of a very particular market. Most of the people in NYC are looking to save money just like the majority of oth
42 PVD757 : LHR001 - I don't mean to burst your bubble, but most people in the Hamptons don't fly commercially anyways. Don't try to scam us thinking that you're
43 Lhr001 : PVD757.... Remember that many people that own homes!.... True many of them jet down to Palm Beach and Floridas Gulf Coast in the off-season! If you th
44 Bigphilnyc : I can lay this out in one sentence: It sometimes easily takes more time to get from ISP to Manhattan than it does form most Southwest flights to get t
45 Elwood64151 : Lhr001: Obviously, you've never been to Lubbock. Other airlines fly there, including AA and DL. I'm sure there are others. And many of your friends in
46 PVD757 : There will be plenty of room for them after Song fails. Anybody who thinks that Ted or Song will succeed needs to pass some of that to me. The major a
47 Pe@rson : "I believe they decided against the three NYC airports due to what they perceived as too much congestion to allow their type of quick-turnaround opera
48 Goingboeing : Florida, Puerto Rico, Las Vegas, California are the most popular destinations for NY'ers. And B6 offers a much more realistic route map that people ac
49 Jfklganyc : It sounds like this conversation has taken on some perosnal undertones between a few of you. Fact is someone stated it best when they said ISP is furt
50 Goingboeing : If ISP is a "complete failure", why is it making money for the airline?
51 Greg : New Yorkers are like any other flyers across the country...price sensitive. To say they are elitist is nonsense. The disposable per capita income of T
52 PROSA : If ISP is a "complete failure", why is it making money for the airline? WN's market at ISP is largely limited to Long Island traffic - not entirely, a
53 Goingboeing : But..."complete failure" to me is an airline that has 90% of the market share, but loses money in the market. If Southwest only gets .0001% of the tra
54 Kempa : JetBlue and Southwest are LCC's, but they are not the same, especially in the route structure. JetBlue uses mostly a hub-and-spoke system with their t
55 STT757 : "If ISP is a "complete failure", why is it making money for the airline? " It makes money, but what would have been a larger success Islip as WN opera
56 Goingboeing : Islip will not get much bigger than it already is, and the bigger B6 gets at JFK the smaller the "potential" growth for WN at Islip. Except that South
57 PROSA : Remember, WN does not serve Boston, but it taps into that market from north and south. WN's schedules promote MHT and PVD as providing service to Bost
58 MSPman : LHR001: First people earn their class. I have met some people at college who are born rich and they are complete a**holes and have no class at all. Yo
59 Goingboeing : A bit off topic, but I gotta second what MSPman said. A friend was "housesitting" at the home of a rather wealthy family. Their 15 year old daughter w
60 Post contains images PROSA : A friend was "housesitting" at the home of a rather wealthy family. Their 15 year old daughter was there at the same time. These folks were "first cla
61 Scottb : Actually, if you go through and crunch the numbers, I believe that Southwest made a GOOD decision to avoid JFK and directly competing in the NYC marke
62 SWAFA30 : Honestly, this debate could go on for days. Right on wrong, wise or stupid, WN opted to not enter the metro NYC market(JFK/LGA/EWR). The real question
63 Lhr001 : The real questions is what if the unthinkable happens and US liquidates? What would be the best plan of action for an upwardly mobile LCC if that kind
64 STT757 : Buying US Airways routes makes no sense since the routes they fly are not to Heathrow or Tokyo Narita where slot controls makes purchasing landing rig
65 Lhr001 : STT757, Dont forget the importance of Boston to US Airways... American Airlines is sure to have a field day pillaging US Airways Boston system! US Air
66 Garnetpalmetto : Abraham Lincoln once said "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." LHR001, you'd do well to keep that a
67 STT757 : "Onto the REAL issue here, despite all the slot controls and the slower turn-around times at the PANYNJ airports, I'd say WN has dropped the ball by n
68 Scottb : That's a really good point, STT757; with it looking like US Airways' assets may indeed come into play, WN could have the opportunity to buy a block of
69 PROSA : NYC is a market that begs for an honest-to-goodness LCC and none of the Kate Spade-wearing, blue potato chip eating, we're only an LCC on certain days
70 Garnetpalmetto : Call it overly simplified, but it's because in a few cases the majors have lower fares on routes than B6 does. Don't get me wrong, I do like what I've
71 Goingboeing : Okay...let's go back to LCC 101. Big boys will always beat them on price when you are booking 21 days in advance, travelling on a Wednsday, staying ov
72 Garnetpalmetto : Thanks for the clarifier, Goingboeing
73 Elwood64151 : JFK has a MUCH larger base to which draw passengers, and much larger facilities. Same goes for BOS vs. MHT... Remember, WN serves Midland-Odessa, TX,
74 RJpieces : "US hasn't historically purchased many airlines" US is pretty much a combo of a lot of smaller airlines which is one of the problems it has.
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