Fritzi From United Arab Emirates, joined Jun 2001, 2762 posts, RR: 2 Posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6305 times:
I just found out that a friend of mine that was travelling VIE-MUC-ARN, was onboard the F70 belly landing in MUC.
Here is what he has told me so far:
-The engines became choppy at about 14,000 ft and it started to smell like smoke in the cabin.
-The nose gear was the only one extended.
-The engines ran at a very low speed.
-10 seconds before they landed on the belly, one of the pilots yelled "Mayday Mayday" over the PA.
-The engines were shut off right before the impact with the ground.
-The aircraft stopped very quickly, and there was a great amount of force as the plane skidded to a stop
-After touchdown, all the pax thought they had landed next to the RWY.
-Then people started screaming and crying when they found out what had happened.
-The pax were then told that there was no risk for a fire, which meant that they could stay onboard till rescue personell arrived.
Thats the info that I have so far from him, Im going to talk to him later today again.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13336 posts, RR: 64 Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6183 times:
Is there any information about what is going to happen to the plane?
Did any of people who went there have a good look at the engine intakes and tail pipes?
Fritzi From United Arab Emirates, joined Jun 2001, 2762 posts, RR: 2 Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6137 times:
Im guessing that it will be repaired. The only visble damage is on the flaps and left side of the fuselage.
The MLGs weren´t extended, so then the spar should be ok.
Suspen From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 156 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5927 times:
-10 seconds before they landed on the belly, one of the pilots yelled "Mayday Mayday" over the PA.
Why would he do that?
Tower: "Cessna xxxx, state your intentions", Cessna: "To become airline pilot"
JBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4459 posts, RR: 22 Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5856 times:
-The pax were then told that there was no risk for a fire, which meant that they could stay onboard till rescue personell arrived.
And why would they say THAT?! Skidded to a stop...on the wings...no telling what kind of damage to the wings there was...
Nudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 20 Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5786 times:
Sounds like:
10 seconds before ground contact "Mayday-Announcement"...pretty late...
after that engine shutoff...which takes always one or two minutes after a planes taxied to it's gate...with 8 secs left...I don't know...
With all due respect, and if he were a pax, he probably had a different feeling for time...I cannot imagine a pax watching his wrist clock and stop watch and take precision time data...
I don't wanna say that I would not believe him or so, not at all, just the timeline is weird...maybe even takes out the dramatic feeling of the post...
I am glad, they all came down alive! Good to see these things happen as well, which makes me feel more each time, that absolutely pros are sitting in the FD! Congrats to the crew!
Fritzi From United Arab Emirates, joined Jun 2001, 2762 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5725 times:
Im not saying that everything he said was correct, this is just what he told me.
I doubt that anyone would be looking their watch while being in a airplane that was crashing. Would you?
And yes, he was on that flight, would you like to see a copy of the boarding pass. He was on the flight together with his sister. They were the only two that continued on with the rest of their journey by train to Sweden.
Nudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 20 Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5684 times:
Fritzi, I never doubted all that! I was more referring to Suspen, who asked about the mayday in general, sorry, I didn't mean to doubt You, total apologize!
Nudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 20 Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5546 times:
actually, merkuree, it's not the fuel which might catch fire, it's the air inside of the tanks, combined with oxygene, like burning car fuel only succeeds, when already being gas within the air...
but still, Your question is not answered with that, so...I'm actually interested too...
EGGD From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 12426 posts, RR: 40 Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5524 times:
If the engines are shut down, the cabin is still intact and there is no fuel leak, it would make sense to keep the passengers in the aircraft. After all, it looks like it was mighty cold out there and I don't think anyone was really prepared to be out in below freezing weather for significant amounts of time!!!
Spacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2738 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5475 times:
How exactly do they plan on getting it from that field to a repair facility? Especially in one peice. It is still a fair distance from MUC, and the ground is pretty soft where it came down. I don't think roads would be feasable unless they remove the tailplane and wings. ASN lists it as a writeoff, usually they don't jump the gun on these things.
Khushdesi From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 85 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5443 times:
Nudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 20 Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5418 times:
Austrian Airlines...
but I read this in a former thread:
Dear Nudelhirsch, I can't believe that this plane will be repaired.
With the landing gear torn off the wing main spar will be severely damaged. Flaps and their associated mechanisms are of course also totally destroyed. It means that the wing will have to be replaced.
The fuselage: You don't just straighten it as a bent car. It is a pressurised cabin. One crack can be fatal. Fuselage structure is a write off.
But the engines - the units which failed - they may be reused in case they haven't suffered severe FODs.
A lot of other expensive items - hydraylics, electrical and electronic units - may find a place on the Austrian spare parts shelves.
But that plane made its last landing. They were very lucky that it didn't catch fire.
Esajh From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 39 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5374 times:
The last thing a Captain wants to do is dump 1 or 200 passengers on the ramp. That decision is a very difficult one and one of the reasons a Captain gets paid to make such decisions.
Sure if the plane is on fire, it is an easy decision. But in this case, where the plane was intact the decision is much different. He knew what had happened and what shape his aircraft was in and made the right decision. I say the right decision because I have the luxury of hindsight.
When you ask why not do it anyway? When you dump people on the ramp someone is GUARANTEED to get injured or die. That is right, you WILL hurt some one, probably seriously and death has occurred. Remember folks you are pushing dozens or a few hundred people through some small exits. They are over two stories in the air (in most cases) and that slid is extremely steep. You will impact the ramp at a high rate of speed and if all you get are a few broken and sprained ankles, with some footprint bruises in your back you are extremely lucky. People have fallen off the sides of those ramps, as well as crushed their heads on the ground by either falling off or going down headfirst. Remember that you are being pushed by the FAs not to mention the potential panic in the cabin.
Now most people don’t listen to instructions and panic is a definite possibility when you issue an evacuation order. Some understand the nearest exit is behind them but the guy behind them runs forward to get out the exit he came in. Confusion, congestion and PANIC are real possibilities – increasing the likelihood of serious injury.
Now when you said the pilot yelled “Mayday” that is a possibility. This was a controlled incident and as such the pilot had probably briefed his flight attendants about a brace signal. He may have told the passengers directly, (which would mean your friend did not listen to the instructions.) ONLY the cockpit crew would know when they were a few seconds from impact and they want to relay that to the passengers so they can brace for impact. The pilots will not have time to give the people a dissertation and as a result they usually use ONE recognizable word that people can easily remember, repeated several times to get the folks attention. That way you can do what you are supposed to do to save your own life.
So the crew did everything any pilot would do and as it turned out they were right. I am sure they might be up for various airmen awards.
Spacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2738 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5352 times:
Noodledeer:
I would doubt the nosegear ripping off would damage the spar. If we look back on past F-100 accidents involving landing with fewer than 2 main gears extended (of which there are many, the F-100 had a high occurence of maingear collapses/losses compared to other types), most have been repaired. The only writeoffs seem to be the AA F-100 at DFW a few years ago, and the TAM F-100 that landed in the cow pasture. To be fair though, I can't think of one that was repaired after landing on a non-paved surface.
JBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4459 posts, RR: 22 Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5283 times:
Esajh,
I have to take issue with your post.
Sure if the plane is on fire, it is an easy decision. But in this case, where the plane was intact the decision is much different. He knew what had happened and what shape his aircraft was in and made the right decision. I say the right decision because I have the luxury of hindsight.
How on earth can the flight crew be absolutely certain of the condition of the airplane, which undoubtedly suffered damage in a slide over unknown and unfamiliar terrain, while sitting in the flight deck? Sure I could see your point if say I had just executed an RTO due to some blown tires or skidded off the runway in a rainstorm, but these circumstances were quite different.
When you ask why not do it anyway? When you dump people on the ramp someone is GUARANTEED to get injured or die. That is right, you WILL hurt some one, probably seriously and death has occurred. Remember folks you are pushing dozens or a few hundred people through some small exits. They are over two stories in the air (in most cases) and that slid is extremely steep. You will impact the ramp at a high rate of speed and if all you get are a few broken and sprained ankles, with some footprint bruises in your back you are extremely lucky. People have fallen off the sides of those ramps, as well as crushed their heads on the ground by either falling off or going down headfirst. Remember that you are being pushed by the FAs not to mention the potential panic in the cabin.
Several issues here:
Yes, evacuation injuries are common for all the reasons you mentioned. However, "serious" injuries may only include broken bones; if you look at FAA accident reports you will see that it is very hard to recall an instance when someone died evacuating a 100% intact aircraft...in fact I don't think you'll find one.
Leezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4041 posts, RR: 55 Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5259 times:
"With the landing gear torn off the wing main spar will be severely damaged"
The landing gear wasn't torn off because it was retracted at the time so I doubt that there will be serious damage to the wing spar.
From the pictures I've seen it looks repairable to me - and I say again from the pictures I've seen. The damage looks minimal from the photos and I wouldn't have thought there would have been much structural damage but thats purely speculation.
The biggest problem will be getting it the 1.5k to the airport or however far it is.
There have been other a/c with similar looking damage that have been repaired but it all depends on the a/c's value against the cost of the repairs though.
"10 seconds before ground contact "Mayday-Announcement"...pretty late..."
How early would you expect it then if they didn't think they had a problem ??.
Lets not forget that the a/c was on final approch into MUC so they were flying low and slowly and decending so they probably didn't realise they were in trouble until it was too late - a bit like the BD 737 that crashed onto the M1. They too thought they would make the airfield until they tried to give the engine a bit of power and it failed causing them to crash - too late to do anything about it. I imagine that the pilot hit the wrong switch in the panic in the final few seconds and made the "mayday" call into the cabin by mistake or at the same time as the radio to give the people in the cabin a few seconds to do something. The capt of the BD 737 shouted "brace brace" into the cabin about 3 seconds before the first impact with the ground which was even later.
"after that engine shutoff...which takes always one or two minutes after a planes taxied to it's gate...with 8 secs left...I don't know..."
It does not take 1-2 minutes for an a/c engine to shut down (they sometimes have to run the engines for a couple of minutes before they shut them down if it is only a short taxi from the runway). It takes about 30 seconds max for the engine to wind down, but if you are going to crash and you know you have no options then it is usual when there is time to shut the engines off before impact to stop the fuel flow that could lead to a fire.
Just glad they all got out with no deaths or injuries.
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7991 posts, RR: 27 Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5221 times:
Suspen said:Why would he do that?
In his haste he keyed the mic wrong and broadcast over the PA rather than the frequency. Happens all the time, even under normal circumstances.
Rick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 52 Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5177 times:
Have only glanced through this topic; some good points made so far.
It is important to remember that any person involved in an emergency or situation like this will give a mix of correct and incorrect information, the tendency to exaggerate to make the story sound better (this is not intentional, it is human nature) and will often have conflicting and sometimes completely different recollections to other witnesses.
This is normal and there is a scientific term to describe this misinformation.
With that in mind, my own view of the comments is:
"10 seconds before they landed on the belly, one of the pilots yelled "Mayday Mayday" over the PA."
This seems unlikely, unless the pilot said "Brace, Brace". Mis-keying the mike between ATC and the PA is a possibility, but no way would it come that late. Again this may be a recollection / perception issue with the witness (time and size in particular are difficult factors to recollect accurately).
Out of interest the "Brace, Brace" call should come at around 200ft AGL, both in my previous and current airline on different types.
"The pax were then told that there was no risk for a fire, which meant that they could stay onboard till rescue personell arrived."
That seems an absolutely ludicrous decision. I completely agree that the crew could have had no idea that the fire risk was nil. With potential wing damage this seems a particularly irresponsible decision. A fire could have occurred, or may even have been in progress when this announcement was made, for all the flightdeck crew knew.
The procedures in airlines I have flown for and presently fly for have always been emergency landing = evacuation. For landing in a field on your belly, there shouldn't be a second thought! So it's cold outside... so a few passengers might get injured... so what. Better than burning to death from a sudden explosion.
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
WhyNotTu204 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 95 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5149 times:
All great points. Interestingly enough I was in Munich on the 5th of January, departing back for the States on the 6th. Did not see anything in the local news about the landing and only found out about it in the evening of the 5th when saw the first pictures on airliners.net (kudos to this web site and it's great users).
Another point to be made that I have not seen made here, is quite simlply this: a great piloting job by the crew. Severely underpowered aircraft, descending through 12000 feet, not making the runway, hitting the ground with a belly landing. Let's not overlook these points before we go critisizing the pilots for yelling Mayday 2 minutes too late...
Esajh From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 39 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5137 times:
JBirdAV8r
I disagree; you would no more know what condition you were in with an RTO than this case. Are your breaks on fire? Did rubber punch a hole throughout the wing and rupture the fuel etc.? No you have probably less knowledge on an RTO.
In this case the aircraft was flying, it is pretty intact, and there is no sign of fuel or fire problems. Now you ask: “How on earth can the flight crew be absolutely certain.” Well you can not be absolutely certain who your parents are! You have a HIGH probability but absolutely certain – come on you are a pilot?
If you do fly and have had a long and good career, you know you make aviation decisions every day you fly. You make a decision even if you are fit enough to go to work, whether to T.O. etc. You are NEVER absolutely certain and every decision you make is based upon data. You collect as much data as possible, evaluate that data along with experience and make the best decision based upon that data. 100% certainty is luxury pilots almost never have and if you wait for it you could be dead!
“if you look at FAA accident reports you will see that it is very hard to recall an instance when someone died evacuating a 100% intact aircraft...in fact I don't think you'll find one.”
This statement I am not going to argue. A 100% intact aircraft? Is the aircraft OK and it was an unnecessary evacuation. Was it a necessary evacuation and nothing was wrong with the aircraft? Was it an accident or an inadvertent slide deployment? I can’t define your statement, but suffice it to say. Tampa evacuation, woman fell on her baby. Spinal Cord problems! Miami, door problem. FA blown out of aircraft – death.
WhyNotTu204 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 95 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5120 times:
Belly landing? That was my understanding... Can someone explain to me why all gear seem to be in the down position in the picture above?
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5078 times:
If you're referring to the photo in reply#2, it was taken after the recovery process had begun. The aircraft was raised off its belly with either airbags or cranes, and then the main gear dropped down and pinned into place. The nose gear was the only one deployed during the landing itself, and it separated from the aircraft. In the photo above, if you look close, you can see planking and other items that have been places under the nose.
25 JBirdAV8r: Esajh, Well you can not be absolutely certain who your parents are! You have a HIGH probability but absolutely certain – come on you are a pilot? Wo
26 Spark: Arguing whether the pilot said "Mayday" too late is a little bit like saying that Joe Montana should have thrown the pass to Dwight Clark on "The Catc
27 Teahan: @JBirdAV8r: I would reread Rick's post (or even just the piece you quoted). He never said anything of the sort. [Edited 2004-01-09 18:13:27]
28 Rick767: JBirdAV8r I'm confused, we seem to agree with each other.... perhaps my wording gave a different impression at first glance? I don't see where my word
29 N844AA: I don't mean to speak for JBirdAV8r, but I think his comment was directed to the poster above (Esajh) who said that not evacuating was the correct cou
30 JBirdAV8r: Rick767, Sorry! My comments were directed at Esajh....I quoted you (albeit not so clearly) to back up my point...I do agree with you! Sorry for the co
31 UAL747DEN: This story doesn't sound totally true, and im not saying that someone is purposely lieing but some parts are completely crazy. The first one is the pa
32 Fritzi: UAL747DEN said: You should never do that and freak out the pax for no reason Are you saying that a aircraft crash is not going to freak out the passen
33 OPNLguy: >>>The decision of keeping the passengers on the plane till rescue crew arrived is valid, except nobody has the same information that Captain and crew
34 Airlinelover: Just FYI- "Mayday Mayday" may have been that airlines wording rather then Brace Brace, as diff. airlines sometimes say different things.. Chris
35 UAL747DEN: FRITZI From what I understand about the crash the pilot knew that they were going to have to ditch the plane long before landing. That would be a good
36 Merkuree: does anybody have additional info on the fuel load this aircraft had at 'touchdown'? Or the nature of the power failure/problems? I understand that an
37 JBirdAV8r: @Teahan: Maybe you should reread MY post and see who I was talking about
38 Merkuree: Austrian changes ice plates after Munich jet scare VIENNA, Jan 9 (Reuters) - Austrian Airlines (Vienna: AUAV.VI - news) is changing the Rolls-Royce-ma
39 AR385: I am sure that the situation developed so quickly that they only thing they could do was FLY THE PLANE. No time to brief anyone. Plus, since everybody
40 LMML 14/32: I agree with Rick 767. The decision to keep the pax on board after a belly landing is very dubious. My book has always said in bold type that an evacu
41 Backfire: I think some of you need to think about putting medical attention ahead of airline procedures. If passengers have just been through an air crash, ther
42 AR385: Backfire, It's more irresponsible to keep them inside while a fire outside is raging (in this case it wasn't, but the crew had no way of knowing that)
43 Backfire: It's more irresponsible to keep them inside while a fire outside is raging (in this case it wasn't but the crew had no way of knowing that) How do you
44 Radarbeam: -----Do you really believe that they kept the passengers inside without checking that it would be safe? Don't be ridiculous----- Can you tell me how y
45 OPNLguy: >>>Can you tell me how you would ascertain from the flightdeck that your aircraft didn't suffer some kind of fuel line/tank rupture? They can't. Even
46 Radarbeam: I know, I just want Backfire to realize that keeping the passengers inside the aircraft was a gamble and it could have jeopardized the safety of the P
47 Ka: On TV there was an interview with another pax who reported the smell of smoke before the crashlanding. So these are at least 2 pax now (incl the one m
48 UAL747DEN: Backfire The passengers in shock would have sure been warm if the aircraft was on fire huh! Please tell me how you would know if there was a gas leak
49 LMML 14/32: .........bring out the brandy to keep the pax warmer still .........
50 Fritzi: Ka, About how old was the interviewed passenger? Male or female?
51 Ka: Fritzi, Male, Viennese resident, about 40-45. KA.
52 KaiGywer: Esajh wrote: When you ask why not do it anyway? When you dump people on the ramp someone is GUARANTEED to get injured or die. That is right, you WILL
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