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Does Delta Have Enough Heavies?  
User currently offlineJmets18 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 178 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4540 times:

Is it me, or does anyone else think that with the retirement of the MD-11, Delta's 8 777's are no where near up to standards of other American based carriers. Look at UAL and American. They've got upwards of 50 777's, and UAL has upwards of 30 747's. The same that is said for Delta could be said for Northwest I suppose. Continental has been consistently adding 777's every year. And they fly there 764's overseas. Delta does not. One would think the loss of 15 MD-11's would hurt Delta in the long run.

What's everyone's opinion?

46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4512 times:

Except Delta has a crapload of 767s which is its prime Transatlantic aircraft.

User currently offlineB741 From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 716 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4494 times:

Maybe they should purchase A330/340 a/c to beef up the fleet.


Being Bilingual, I Speak English And Aviation
User currently offlineDasheighty From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 311 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4483 times:

Well the main question I have is; Delta retired the L-10-11 in 2001 Ok the aircraft has been flying since the 70's and her day is over. The MD!!'s were still a relatively new aircraft I cant see why delta would dump them unless the intend replaceing it with a 747-400 or 767-400's or more 777 right now I think there a little short handed.

User currently offlineJmets18 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 178 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4385 times:

Well, they have 69 767-300 ER aircraft. Do you think all of those are used for overseas flights? They have a total of 123 767's. 21 are 764, and 28 are 763. I guess they might have enough for overseas travel. It just seems like they should have a lot more 777's. Why only 8? Because they had the L10-11 and MD-11. Now they're gone. So Delta's gotta be ordering more in the near future.

My two cents anyway...


User currently offlineAlexinwa From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4385 times:

Even without the L1011's and the MD11's, DL still has one of the largest HEAVY Fleets in the world.

Not sure of the exact numbers, but the 762, 763, and 764 fleet is over 130.

Also, keep in mind DL gets excellent usage of these a/c. Long or short haul, they seem to fill them.



You mad Bro???
User currently offlineGte439u From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 361 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4385 times:

The only route where DL needs the range of the 772 is ATL-NRT, which requires three aircraft for the daily flight. That leaves five 772s for other services, and two more are coming in 2005.

DL has about 130 767s, the world's largest fleet of that type. The 763 is perfectly suited to DL's long-range needs which is really only from the Eastern US to Europe or ATL to Brazil and the Southern Cone. DL is able to fill the 763 up, whereas the 772 would be a streach on most routes.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4377 times:

They grounded the MD11 because the MD11 is a shitty aircraft.

They're better off carefully allocating 777s and increasing their 767 flying.

Don't get me wrong, I am positive Delta would like to have more 777s in the fleet, they just aren't in the financial position to do so.

They definitely aren't going to get 747-400s, and I wouldn't expect any 764s to Europe.

N


User currently offlineAFC_ajax00 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4279 times:

Wasn't there a dispute between Delta and the pilots' union that prevented DL from ordering more 777s? Something about pay?



Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward; for there you long to return
User currently offlineC17Glbm From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4190 times:

I totally agree with Gigneil
I think Delta is going to further bet on their B767s. A friend of mine is a FO flying DL Triple Seven's. He told me that apparently their is only one DL B777 equipped with crew-rest etc. as monetary issues prevented any further modifications to any other B777. Also, I think the B764 and B777 pay issues were settled sometime last year.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4147 times:

Delta's 8 777's are no where near up to standards of other American based carriers

Delta's thirteen eventual 777s wont be too far from CO's eighteen member fleet count... CO being an airline similar to DL's infrastructure and currently profitable.



Look at UAL and American

Yes, look at them:
one bankrupt, and the other came within a quarter inch of being so just last year. Great examples!  Laugh out loud



Continental has been consistently adding 777's every year.

hmm... 1998, 1999, and 2002 are considered "every year" in your world?



Maybe they should purchase A330/340 a/c to beef up the fleet.

Maybe you should purchase half-pills, because that statement proves you're not ready for the whole thing  Big grin


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4135 times:

He told me that apparently their is only one DL B777 equipped with crew-rest etc. as monetary issues prevented any further modifications to any other B777

Now, there are three. They are currently operating the ATL-NRT run... the rest of the fleet to follow


User currently offlinePBIflyguy From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 248 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4114 times:

If you want to know where DL's heavies are.. check out the schedules from ATL into FLL, MIA, PBI, MCO and TPA. In season, practically all of these routes are flown with 762's, 763's and 764's. ( Except PBI, we don't get the 764 for some reason).

User currently offlineDasheighty From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 311 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4088 times:

I dont see delta to purchase Airbus aircraft anytime soon if at all.

I know they had some A-310's after the demise of Pan Am but they didnt hold onto them for all that long


User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4003 times:

Delta uses the 767's to the max right now, you'll see it on short hops, like ATL-JAX, or ones like ATL-CDG..just depends.

But with the demise of the M11 fleet, it basically halved Delta's super longhaul fleet...it just keeps shrinking, especially with the retirement of the L10 in 2001. I hope to see more 777's come online soon..I think they can fill them. So yes, the longhaul fleet is smaller.

The 764's aren't helping though, being in that super dense config, and never getting to go Intl..they really could use that aircraft better. Even though it's the L-1011 replacement.

I had always heard that they were "parking" the MD-11 fleet. Obviously, some are gone to other carriers, but I wish there was the slim chance of a rebound of them...oh well, guess I'll have to settle for the simulator in ATL.  Sad

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineJmets18 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 178 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4000 times:

ConcordeBoy:

Could you be more arrogant? I guess it say's it all in your name..."boy". You're respect rating is way too high...


User currently offline767-332ER From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2030 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3946 times:


I think with the route infrastructure and ops for right now, they seem to be very well off... The 767's they have, well a good many are mid-late 90's examples and they will hold off. The one thing I do expect is Delta to order the 7E7 later on down the line, which around that time (2008-2010) DL will need to re-adjust their fleet according to their needs. Right now they are fine.



Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
User currently offlineTheFLCowboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3889 times:

I think it will be a long time before you see any mure busses in Delta's fleet. (yay)
MD



A318, A320, A332, A333, B1900, B722, B732, B733, B734, B735, B737, B738, B772, CR1, CR2, CR7, CR9, MD80, MD81, MD82, MD8
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3873 times:

about 25% of AA, DL, and UA's fleet is in widebodies if you do the math. DL is by far heavier on the 767 which is suited for its predominantly European route system which is very seasonal. AA is big on the 777 while UA throws 747's into the mix. DL probably won't acquire any more 777's than what's on order unless they grow in the Pacific.

I agree w/ 767-332ER that Delta is a prime candidate for buying the 7E7. Given that many of the long range 7E7 capabilities are similar to or better than the 777, it doesn't make sense to buy a bunch of 777's that will only be competitive for 5 years.


User currently offlinePilotNtrng From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 897 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3868 times:

Delta got rid of the MD-11's because they are not as fuel efficient as the twin jet 76's and 77's . To my understanding they plan to get a few more 77's in 2005. Someone correct me if I wrong.


Booooo Lois, Yaaaa Beer!!!
User currently offlineDasheighty From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 311 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3833 times:

Pilotntrng,

Not saying your wrong but wouldn't it have been more logical for delta to keep the MD-11 for Domestic use swapping the 767-400 for international?


User currently offlineThrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2688 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3810 times:

Delta does have many heavies. Delta needs a lot more 777s to compete decently over the Atlantic. If I'm not mistaken there are eight in service right now, correct? Well, no matter, Northwest is taking up large orders for the A330, the rival to the 777, in my perspective, and Continental has a significantly larger fleet. Their goals are to compete in the market with AA and UA and CO. AA and UA operate the largest fleets of 777s in the world. Delta needs to buy more Boeing 777s for the international market. They could add more flights to the same destination internationally, plus they could operate more fuel-efficient operations. However, 767-332ER, I will agree with you that Delta will buy the 7E7, since it has a tradition of avoiding Airbus: The only aircraft they ever operated were a small fleet of A310s. The 777-200ER is the MD-11's successor. They must put them to good use. Eight aircraft isn't enough. In my mind, you need at least 12 giant jetliners in order to make good use of the aircraft type.


Fly one thing; Fly it well
User currently offlinePilotNtrng From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 897 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3732 times:

Possibly Dasheighty,

but the reason they got rid of the MD-11 was to make their entire fleet twin-jet and to save on fuel cost. The MD-11 would be good on short hops, but it seems that fleet simplification and fuel cost drove it out of DL.



Booooo Lois, Yaaaa Beer!!!
User currently offlineDasheighty From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 311 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3693 times:

I guess in short the MD-11 was the "Edsel" of the Airline world.

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3624 times:

It wasn't so much fuel economy - the MD-11 wasn't bad in that regard. They just did want to get an all twinjet fleet.

It was a maintenance hog was the main problem, a hangar queen if you will.

I know they had some A-310's after the demise of Pan Am but they didnt hold onto them for all that long

They ordered new A310s well after the demise of Pan Am. The 767 is just a more flexible aircraft.

Delta needs a lot more 777s to compete decently over the Atlantic.

I dunno, Thrust. DL is the number one US carrier across the Atlantic, in terms of pax boarded, destinations, and revenues. I think they've got the right mix.

I guess in short the MD-11 was the "Edsel" of the Airline world.

Yep. It was destined to be a cargo hauler... McDD sealed its fate by delivering the first frame off the line to FedEx.  Laugh out loud

N


25 Post contains images Iflyatldl : Dasheighty: No it was more like the AMC Pacer!
26 DAL12 : I don't think DL needs as many 777s as the other airlines operating them because its hubs (ATL and CDG) are not as important internationally as those
27 MD88Captain : DOES DAL HAVE ENOUGH HEAVIES??????? You must be kidding. Take an international flight with DAL sometime. You find that they are all "heavies" serving
28 Panamair : Very few of Delta's existing long-haul markets justify the use of the 777 on a year-round basis. Unless they get access to LHR or if ICN is ever built
29 WGW2707 : DL has plenty of widebodied aircraft. While it is unfortunate that they had to retire their MD-11s after such a short service life, the fact is that t
30 Flairport : DL's problem is tha they run some odd routes with theri intl planes. CDG-CVG-LAX? If they drop CVG-LAX or make it a domestic 767, 1 more plane for int
31 DeltaSFO : There are factual inaccuracies, urban myths, and good examples of faulty logic in just about every post in this thread.
32 Panamair : I don't think it's a case of wasting ERs as much as finding the right international routes to start (or add frequencies to). After 9/11 and the subseq
33 Airways6max : Delta probably retired the MD-11 due to improving fleet commonality and because the MD-11 had a less-than-stellar performance record. Delta probably f
34 Gigneil : Delta probably figures its small fleet of 777s and its 767-400s are enough for its transoceanic routes. If by transoceanic you mean HNL then sure. Del
35 Dasheighty : DeltaSFO, Of course it is possible that Logic is faulty in this thread. Who the heck knows why decisions are made to keep one model or refer to anothe
36 GARUDAROD : Gigneil, Actually the first MD-11 delivery went to Finnair.
37 MD-90 : DeltaSFO, I heartily agree with you. Dasheighty, the L-1011 was a beautifully engineered aircraft and as much as I like seeing MD-11s, they were near-
38 GLAguy : Been wondering, which routes do Delta use their 777s on?
39 ConcordeBoy : Actually the first MD-11 delivery went to Finnair. DL, to this day, swears upon the holy Widget that it was the first to receive and place M11 into se
40 Post contains links and images DeltaSFO : Yes, I believe Delta was the first airline to introduce the MD-11 in revenue passenger service. They leased a couple of MD-11s from Mitsui/Tombo to ho
41 N863DA : Delta was the first carrier to place the MD-11 into SCHEDULED airline service. Finnair, however, beat Delta by a few days with the first CHARTER servi
42 DeltaSFO : N863DA... You're the man. Thanks for the clarification.
43 Post contains images United1 : >>>DOES DAL HAVE ENOUGH HEAVIES??????? You must be kidding. Take an international flight with DAL sometime. You find that they are all "heavies" servi
44 MD-90 : The best 763ER ride on Delta is their repositioning flight from BDL to ATL on Sunday mornings. We used to go up to Connecticut every so often to see f
45 Post contains images Iflyatldl : The MD-11 was a beautiful a/c, but it simply didn't live up to the performance criteria that MD had advertised. At least DL hung on to theirs for a wh
46 Jrlander : I noticed something interesting about DL 767-400s when I was flying LAX-ATL last week in First. There is a first class cabin, with a small wall behind
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