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Qantas And The 717 And BAE146  
User currently offlineQANTASpower From Australia, joined Aug 2002, 516 posts, RR: 7
Posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4753 times:

With the launch of Jetstar I am still unclear of what will eventually happen to the 717 and BAE146 for that matter.

Will QF 737-400's replace QF QFlink services on routes currently served by the 717?

What will happen when they have enough A320's to cover for the 717's initially allocated to Jetstar.

QF was apparently looking for a new regional jet but we have heard no more.

Thanks for your help.

QANTASpower



[Edited 2004-01-09 01:17:28]

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12341 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4694 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

What will happen when they have enough A320's to cover for the 717's initially allocated to Jetstar.
As each A320 arrives then one B717 will be retired from the QF fleet

Will QF 737-400's replace QF QFlink services on routes currently served by the 717?
NO the A320s (Jetstar) will be operating the routes that have the B717 on them. Are QF getting rid of their B734s when more B738 are delievered?

I think QF are getting rid of their BAE146s and these might be replaced with new Regional Jets


User currently offlineRAAFController From Australia, joined May 2001, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4663 times:

777ER,

I thoight that Qantas were very happy with the B717. The 717 aircraft they have at the moment are very new with very few hours on them. Additionally, they have recently purchased some ex TWA/AA 717 to supplement the 717 aircraft that they acquired in the Impulse takeover. Why would they want to retire such aircraft so soon? Surely they will keep the B717 and put it onto other routes?


User currently offlinePositive rate From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 2143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4641 times:

Yes i agree QF would be stupid to retire the 717 so prematurely. The 146's should definitely go as they are all quite old, but the 717's should stay and get reassigned new routes.
BTW QF doesn't actually own any of their 146's, they are all leased from National Jet Systems so all they have to do is terminate the lease.


User currently offlineQANTASpower From Australia, joined Aug 2002, 516 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4632 times:

I do not believe QF will replace QFlink 717's with Jetstar as this will mean routes like Sydney & Melbourne to Tasmania will have no QF services. The Tasmanians don't deserve this!!

What other routies does the 717 soley serve??

[Edited 2004-01-09 01:55:24]

User currently offlineWirraway From Australia, joined Mar 2001, 1321 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4628 times:

RAAFController

777R is correct that the 717s will leave Qantas as the A320s arrive, the
less types of aircraft an airline operates the better for its overall costs.

Wirraway


User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4628 times:

Slightly off-topic here, but I was looking at the Boeing website today, and it said QF has ordered 26 737-800s...with 21 delivered now. Seems to me that QF is consolidating its aircraft types. Speculation on my part here...A320s for Jetstar, 717s going back to Pembroke/other lessors & the 734s to the desert. Regards.


"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3189 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4602 times:


My understading was that the 737-300's would be completely phased out but the 737-400's would be kept on.

You will probably find that as Jetstar expands its A320 operations, QF will start to retire the 737-400's. This would allow for the "poaching" of passengers from the mainline carrier to Jetstar whilst keeping the total domestic narrowbody fleet about the same.

The 717's are up in the air at the moment. I would have thought that they will use them to replace the BAS-146's. I'm sure NJS could operate them on the same sort of arrangement with Qantaslink if QF wanted them to. I'd like to see the 717's assigned to routes like Perth-Ayers Rock-Cairns and Darwin-Cairns etc.


User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2104 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4589 times:

717s are to stay in the Qantas fleet. The carrier is to allocate aircraft to different divisions. Thus:

Longhaul: - 744s, 743s, 333s and 332s

Domestic/Tasman: - 763s, 738s, 734s

QantasLink: - 717s

Australian Airlines: - 763s

JetStar:- 320s

Qantas Regional flights:- 146s, DH8-300s


The 717s are initially being used to launch JetStar and will quickly return to QantasLink as the first 320s arrive.



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineWirraway From Australia, joined Mar 2001, 1321 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4565 times:

Sydscott wrote: The 717's are up in the air at the moment......

Well you must know more than Geoff Dixon, for it was him who said
that the B717s would be phased out as the A320s were delivered, it
is also correct that the current 'Impulse" 717 pilots would do A320
conversion coarses.

Wirraway


User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2104 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4541 times:

This from the QF news release concerning the launch of JetStar: -

Jetstar will begin selling seats in February 2004 and start flying in May 2004, using 14 Boeing 717s currently operated by Impulse Airlines under the QantasLink brand. The first Airbus A320 will be delivered in June 2004 and Jetstar will, over time, move to an all A320 fleet.


Note that the Impulse 717s will launch the JetStar services but that it is JetStar that will move to an all A320 fleet - not Impulse. Also, this regarding the other Qantas services: -

* Qantas International, offering 540 services each week to 77 destinations in 33 countries;
* Australian Airlines, the full service international leisure carrier, offering 50 flights each week to 11 destinations in six countries;
* Qantas Domestic, offering more than 2,500 flights each week; and
* QantasLink, the regional airline, offering more than 2,500 flights each week.


As QantasLink is to remain then QF needs a 717 size aircraft to fit between the 146s and 734s. Okay, it might look at replacing the 717s if and when it finally orders a new regional jet type but it hasn't definitely said the 717s are to be disposed of, merely replaced at JetStar.

JetStar is an additional brand/service at QF and it is not replacing existing QF domestic services.



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12341 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4539 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Latest News
Qantas Names Low Cost Carrier Jetstar and Orders Airbus A320s
SYDNEY, 1 December 2003

Qantas said today its new low cost domestic airline would be called Jetstar.

The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Geoff Dixon, said the airline would use new Airbus A320 aircraft from June next year and would eventually have an all-A320 fleet.

"Jetstar will fly new A320 aircraft featuring 177 leather seats and an inflight audio entertainment system," Mr Dixon said.

"The domestic leisure market is growing rapidly and now represents over 60 per cent of all passengers. Jetstar will concentrate on growing this market with value fares while opening up new destinations."

Mr Dixon said the Qantas Board had last week approved a number of initiatives for Qantas' domestic operations, including the:

* selection of Impulse Airlines as the operating entity for the low cost carrier;

* placement of an initial order for 23 A320s for the low cost carrier;

* reorganisation of the full service Qantas domestic airline into a two-class jet operation on all services, using only two aircraft types - Boeing 737s and 767s; and

* acquisition of an additional five Boeing 737-800 aircraft for the full service domestic airline to replace the airline's last 737-300s and further modernise the fleet.

Mr Dixon said using Impulse as the operating entity and with new aircraft, new slimline seats, a new booking system and innovative products, Qantas was confident Jetstar would be the lowest cost operator in Australia.

The start-up of Jetstar would add to the overall strength of the Qantas flying product, which currently comprised:

* Qantas International, offering 540 services each week to 77 destinations in 33 countries;

* Australian Airlines, the full service international leisure carrier, offering 50 flights each week to 11 destinations in six countries;

* Qantas Domestic, offering more than 2,500 flights each week; and

* QantasLink, the regional airline, offering more than 2,500 flights each week.

Mr Dixon said the purchase of the A320s and 737-800s would not stress the company's balance sheet.

"We will remain within our desired gearing level," he said. "The domestic market is strong and the international market is returning quickly from the effects of SARS and the war in Iraq. All our businesses are profitable."

Jetstar will begin selling seats in February 2004 and start flying in May 2004, using 14 Boeing 717s currently operated by Impulse Airlines under the QantasLink brand. The first Airbus A320 will be delivered in June 2004 and Jetstar will, over time, move to an all A320 fleet.

"While the initial order is for 23 A320s, we can acquire more of these aircraft as Jetstar grows. As we said in October, Jetstar will operate a minimum of 23 aircraft by mid-2005.

"The A320 family is used by two of the world's most successful low cost carriers, Jetblue and EasyJet, and it has an outstanding track record, including excellent fuel efficiency."

The airline's route network and fare structure will be announced in January 2004.

Mr Dixon said the Board's approval for the acquisition of an additional five Boeing 737-800s highlighted the full service airline's strategy of simplifying its fleet to include only two aircraft types - Boeing 737s and 767s.

The new 737-800s, to be delivered next year, will replace the airline's last 737-300s. The 737-800 is more fuel efficient and cost effective than the 737-300 and it offers more spacious cabins, more headroom and larger windows.

"Qantas has taken delivery of 20 737-800s since February 2002 and another three of these aircraft will join the fleet by the middle of next year," Mr Dixon said.

"The additional five aircraft approved by the Board will take the total Qantas 737-800 fleet to 28. This will result in a large, uniform and more modern fleet for the full service airline and this will deliver further improvements to utilisation, reliability and on-time performance."

Mr Dixon said the full service Qantas domestic airline would continue to offer award-winning inflight entertainment - including video news, movies, sitcoms and sport shows as well as up to 10 channels of audio programs - and the popular Frequent Flyer program.

Mr Dixon said Qantas would maintain its ongoing investment in domestic product, both in the air and on the ground, including the extensive network of Qantas Club lounges.

Business and leisure travellers using the full service airline would continue to have access to an extensive range of discount fares. As well, the simpler domestic fare structure introduced in June had allowed travellers to mix and match one way fares to combine affordability and flexibility to better suit individual needs.


QF WILL RETIRE THE B717 FLEET WHEN THE A320s ARRIVE
This has been mentioned time and time again on a.net and when I was watching the news in NZ Geoff Dixon said that the B717 fleet will be retired from the QF fleet once all the A320s have arrived!. Does it say in the press release that the B717s will stay in the fleet after the A320s have arrived?

Once all the B717s are retired the QFLink fleet will only have 146s and DH8-300s ( which will be replaced with brand new DH8-Q300s which will seat 50 passengers)



User currently offlineTullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4459 times:


QF own none of the 717s. They are all leased. They will dispose of the 717s as the A320s arrive. It is also likely that going forward the 734s in the mainline fleet will be replaced by A320s in the JetStar fleet. As this happens, more and more of the non-trunk domestic routes will transition from mainline to JetStar. This does potentially mean that Tasmania will only be served by low cost carriers but the yield on Tassie routes has always been poor.

Many of the new domestic routes recently announced by QF are unlikely to stay in mainline for long. It is highly unlikely routes such as BME-SYD are long-term QF routes. This route is virtually all-tourist and will probably belong to JetStar within 12-18 months.




717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,310,320/1,332/3,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,SF3,AT
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3189 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4409 times:


I thought most services to Tassie know were flown by 717's??? If thats the case then I'd say virtually all services to Tassie will be Jetstar immediately. In the long term I think you'll find that will be the case anyway.

Wirra I dont know any more than Geoff Dixon and dont pretend to. I've also read all the press releases etc. He said they would be retired from the QF fleet but I can't see routes in the North of Australia like Perth-Ayers Rock-Cairns, Cairns-Darwin, and the like, requiring A320's with 140 odd seats to fly them. The 146's are best replaced by an aircraft like the 717 on those kind of routes that seat about 100 people.


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5828 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4397 times:

FlyCaledonian...There is NO airline called Jetstar nor will there be, at least for the time being. Jetstar is a trading name belonging to the Qantas Group. The A320 is being added to the Impulse AOC & COA (AOC= Airline Operators Certificate (airline lience) COA = Certificate of Approval (engineering/maintance approval).

Impulse may be renamed Jetstar, but that requires jumping thru hoops they don't want to do at the moment.

Regarding the B717, they ARE planned to leave the fleet when the A320 arrive, but there are counter proposals being put forward. They are very happy with them and if they find suitable use then they could easily be retained.

The interesting thing about the Jetstar launch is that decisions are only being made when they have to be and nothing is set in stone. The maintance base for the A320 being an case in point, no firm decision has been made and it wont be until planning for the first A320 C check starts (12-18 months).

The first Jetstar draft timetable is the current Impulse one, tightened up somewhat. On the operations side, all Impulse is waiting on to launch Jetstar is the paint job. Reservations/custom service is another matter.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3189 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4382 times:


Who wants to bet the bulk of maintenance for Jetstar A320's will go to Air New Zealand????


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5828 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4283 times:

Sydscott ... I'll see you Air NZ and raise you Impluse, in house at Newcastle.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineTsv From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 1641 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4156 times:

777ER wrote :

"Once all the B717s are retired the QFLink fleet will only have 146s and DH8-300s ( which will be replaced with brand new DH8-Q300s which will seat 50 passengers)"

???

I think you will find that any new Q300s will be replacing older 100s (you seem to have forgotten the 100s and 200s in the fleet).

http://www.qantas.com.au/info/flying/inTheAir/ourAircraft/seatMapDash8

Latest rumour I've heard is that the older 300s will be replaced with Q400s. With around 70 seats and about 100 knots faster than the 100s/300s the Q400s will make an interesting (and I dare say cheaper) alternative to a "regional jet" (of whatever description).



Sydscott wrote :

"... but I can't see routes in the North of Australia like Perth-Ayers Rock-Cairns, Cairns-Darwin, and the like, requiring A320's with 140 odd seats to fly them. The 146's are best replaced by an aircraft like the 717 on those kind of routes that seat about 100 people."

Again ???

Ok firstly Perth-Ayers Rock-Cairns is currently done with 146 -200s or -300s but remember the other way Cairns-Ayers Rock-Perth is currently done Cairns-Ayers Rock with a 733/4/H and then Ayers Rock-Perth with a 146-200 usually (ok maybe depending on the time of year) all full which to me means there is room for growth so a 177 seater wouldn't be out of place.

Secondly remember there are two ways of going Cairns-Darwin. Direct - usually on a 733/4 - or via Gove - usually on a 146-200 or -300. So I am not sure what you are saying about 146s going "Cairns-Darwin".

(By the way slightly off topic but interesting nonetheless you will find that on the Cairns-Darwin route some will actually go on the via Gove 146s for the Business Class instead of on the direct 733 which only has all economy.)



Overall I get the impression that the situation with the 146s is not just with the aircraft (cost, age, issues, etc) but minimising and eventually eliminating the relationship between Qantas and NJS. Any comments from anyone in the know?



Sydscott and Gemuser wrote :
"Who wants to bet the bulk of maintenance for Jetstar A320's will go to Air New Zealand????"
"Sydscott ... I'll see you Air NZ and raise you Impluse, in house at Newcastle."

And my two cents worth is whoever does it for (the cheapest) peanuts will get it! (and NZ peanuts are cheaper than Oz peanuts!)



"I told you I was ill ..." Spike Milligan
User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5319 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4071 times:

Perhaps QF believe Jetstar can fill an A320 on a 717 route simply by offering cheaper fares to entice more to travel.

I think the next decision will be a new regional jet to replace the BAE's?

Perhaps QF will retain the 717's after all this and use them to can NJS and it's BAE's? who knows, perhaps the 717 retirement statement was issued to keep NJS off the scent?.. stranger things have happened (ala A330's on doemstic)

All it takes is a change in strategy..


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5828 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3991 times:

Sydscott and Gemuser wrote :
"Who wants to bet the bulk of maintenance for Jetstar A320's will go to Air New Zealand????"
"Sydscott ... I'll see you Air NZ and raise you Impluse, in house at Newcastle."

Tsv wrote:
And my two cents worth is whoever does it for (the cheapest) peanuts will get it! (and NZ peanuts are cheaper than Oz peanuts!)

Ah Tsv, but WHOSE peanuts are actually involved? The Impulse NZ peanuts are not necessarily cheaper than the Impulse Oz peanuts all the time, every time, are they?

But I do agree, who ever wants the least peanuts, overall will get it.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineAussie747 From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3953 times:

Six months is a long time in aviation. However what has been planned at the moment is as follows.

The 717's are destined to be phased out of the fleet, as A320's come into the fleet.

They currently operate "leisure routes" MEL/SYD-OOL/HTI. SYD-ROK/TSV/PPP. BNE-ROK/TSV/HTI. MEL/SYD-BA / YMHB), Australia - Tasmania">HBA/LST. forgive me if I have missed a few.

It would be assumed that Jetstar will take over these routes. However a desicion will be made on this matter in the next three weeks. What routes JetStar chooses not to operate, QF will naturally take over in its 2 class format.

The BAE146 will still remain in the fleet until it's long term regional plan has been sorted out. Yes some 146's have already started to be returned to NJS. Originally QF was planning a regional jet purchase with BA, however I assume this has been shelved as this was a 2003 decision which has yet to be formulated. Dash300 series aircraft have been purchased however this is simple to replace older 100 and 200 series aircraft.

733 series aircraft are currently being disposed of to mostly Comair in SA or merged into the NZ operated fleet. 734's series aircraft - their use could be cannibalised by the A320's from JetStar and be retired, or simply be phased out and/or replaced by the remaining 40 odd options it has on the 737NG fleet.

My guess is the above will be startling different in about 1 to 2 years time.


User currently offlineTsv From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 1641 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3899 times:

Aussie thanks for the info but just a small point.

Of the 5 daily BNE-TSV flights only 2 are operated by a 717 and that is a fairly recent happening (which I am led to believe is not a long term solution but more to do with 717 utilisation). I would has at a guess that Dixon wouldn't class BNE-TSV as a "Leisure Route" (read all economy) per se as after he personally received over 600 written complaints in one month from Townsville pax alone (when pax were told all economy 733s were going to take over the route) complaining about the lack of Business Class choice. I would think Yield Management noticed it too (not to mention the refunds involved).

What happens on SYD-TSV is another matter entirely however. By the way it might be a little known fact but the prime mover for the SYD-TSV route was none other than ......

Gary Toomey.

Given that what started off as a daily is now twice daily on weekdays and daily on weekends shows what a "hands on" manager he was. And if you don't believe me just ask the poor bastard who had to front him in his office after he said (in the background) "Who gives a flying f*** about Townsville Sydney" when he rang to find out the on carriage numbers from BNE-SYD from TSV. It's a real pity he wasn't allowed to do great things with Ansett.

The other interesting thing from this is that to those who think V*r*in Blue lead the way in new routes they are only now contemplating SYD-TSV since QF started a second flight. I know who I'll be flying.



"I told you I was ill ..." Spike Milligan
User currently offlineAussie747 From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3845 times:

Thanks TSV for the info, it is always great to hear info from the people who actually fly the routes. Where as my self I am just selling the seats.

User currently offlineQANTAS747 From Australia, joined Mar 2000, 223 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3759 times:

One does have to wonder what will be happening, Geoff Dixon is looking for more fleet commonality IMO, and I think the 146's AND 717's will go. What they are replaced by is another matter. I remember QF looking heavily at the E190, and I think that the 190 would do wonders for the QF operation and it could end up operating some in All economy with Jetstar, and some with 2 class on Mainline. And this is also following the plan of what I personally think QF is trying to emulate while building this new LCC. It has a bit of Impulse(cost structure), a bit of JetBlue (A320's and E190's), and maybe a little of EasyJet, all combined into one to make it truly effecient. (Maybe, we will see about that)... That is my view anyway.

Although the 717's have been favoured by QF, I think that the 717's will stay in the fleet a little after the A320's replace them on Jetstar, and maybe they will operate 146 routes until a decision is made on a regional jet or Turboprop. The Q400 could end up being cheaper, but I am not sure it has the balls to do some of the 146 routes. That could be why they are looking at a RJ.

Have a good night,

QANTAS747


User currently offlineTravatl From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2174 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3660 times:

177 seat A320s?? OUCH - standing room only.

So...more 717s for us at AirTran, huh? HOORAY! We love 'em...can't get enough of 'em.....

Travis


25 Aussie_ : A few points from the inside: 1) The initial routes for Jetstar will ONLY be leisure routes. 2) The 717s WILL be retired once the A320s arrive. 3) All
26 Rushed : just a side note.. how much would it cost per hour ACMI to lease a bae146 ?
27 Ruscoe : If Geoff Dixon is trying to rationalise the fleet why did QF order 320's rather than 737? Over the past week I have had the oppurtunity to fly a 73ng
28 777ER : If Geoff Dixon is trying to rationalise the fleet why did QF order 320's rather than 737? A330s and soon A380s. What I'm trying to say is that the Jet
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