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Skyteam "Seamlessness" Glitches  
User currently offlineDulleswatcher From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 41 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1795 times:

I'm generally fairly pleased with Skyteam, but would like to know if anyone else has experienced glitches with the seamlessness of the Skyteam experience when using more than one partner. Here are my stories:

-- Flew DCA-JFK on DL, JFK-FCO in C on AZ metal, DL codeshare. DL printed a boarding pass for me in DCA for the hop across the pond. At JFK, security said Alitalia had left standing instructions with them not to let anyone through with non-AZ issued boarding passes until they went to Alitalia first and exchanged their (in my case) DL-printed boarding pass for an Alitalia card stock boarding pass. Stupid little glitch that caused 20 minutes delay and made me realize that more needs to be done to integrate AZ and DL ops. Nobody at DL had warned me of Alitalia's requirement.

-- Upgraded my wife's Y fare using DL miles to C on AF IAD-CDG-IAD. When she went to IAD to check in, AF sent her to DL for an endorsement of her paper ticket. Nobody at DL special member services told me this would be the case. Her upgrade for the return portion just came through today, long after she could have gone to a DL office in Paris to change the ticket. Tomorrow, she checks in at CDG and she's unsure if she should see DL first for an endorsement, or go direct to AF. Again, less "seamlessness" than one would like, consider Skyteam's main selling point. It seems the two carriers could communicate electronically without demanding silly coupons from each other. Sounds so much like Indian Airlines in the 1960s.

I raised my concerns with DL special member services, but basically they just said the integration is not perfect and that's life. Some answer. They told me to tell AF check-in staff to call Skyteam Support Desk if they can't figure out how to work their internal system to give my wife her seat in 5B.

Any others care to share their experiences? Anything we can do about it?


Sic Semper Tyrannis
14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1763 times:

Anything we can do about it?

well, you can count your blessings, for one thing


...think SkyTeam has issues with seamless operations? If you want to know true dysfunctionality; take a look at OneHeathroWorld  Laugh out loud


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 2, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1723 times:

Actually, the part about AZ not accepting non-AZ boarding cards at JFK is an occurance that can happen to you with airlines in other alliances as well...

Some friends flew from FRA to JFK on SQ for a day, and got the boarding cards for the return flight issued in FRA.

When they tried to go through security at JFK for the return, they were sent back to the check-in because, even though they had an SQ boarding card, it was not a boarding card issued by SQ in JFK...



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1686 times:

Perhaps when NW and KL enter Skyteam, they can teach their new alliance partners a thing or two about truly seamless cooperation... none better.


An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineTrvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1658 times:

Personally, I think the simple fact that you are allowed to use DL miles to upgrade on AF makes up for the seamlessness issues!

Nevertheless, you do raise some good points. Though my AAdvantage miles do nothing in terms of upgrade opportunities on BA, my American-issued boarding passes worked fine on a BA flight I took last month.

Aaron G.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1628 times:

none better.

"none better" because none have been given nearly as much free rein as NW/KL.... among the most glaring example being the ability to merge their FFPs


User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1608 times:

>>"none better" because none have been given nearly as much free rein as NW/KL.... among the most glaring example being the ability to merge their FFPs<<


???

Not sure I understand your comment. AF/DL currently have just as much "anti-trust exemption" as NW/KL (and I belive UA and LH do as well). NW and KL have separate FF programs... US residents can't belong to KL's Flying Dutchman.

But just because 2 airlines have been given "free reign" doesn't mean they excel at implementation or execution of cooperative initiatives. When you check in at International Falls on NW and go from there to MSP to AMS to Berlin, Germany, you get all of your boarding passes and you make 2 connections as easily and smoothly as if you were going through MSP to MEM to Panama City Florida. There's so much co-branding, you constantly see the KL and NW logos throughout your journey... they even have the same stemware in First/World Business (and, obviously both carriers' intl. premium cabin product is named/marketed the same). Often times, you will get NW cocktail napkins on KL flights. Bottom line: passengers are made to feel they are travelling on 2 divisions of the same airline.

(edited for spelling error)

[Edited 2004-01-13 23:30:47]


An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1567 times:

AF/DL currently have just as much "anti-trust exemption" as NW/KL

False.

Antitrust immunity does not render the various mini-alliances completely free of restriction.

For example, DL/AF cannot merge the operation of their FFPs, nor can they share revenue between CVG/ATL and CDG. NW/KL do not have these such restrictions.





NW and KL have separate FF programs... US residents can't belong to KL's Flying Dutchman.

My point exactly. NW/KL airlines were given the ability to merge the operation of their FFPs, and came to that membership configuration as a result of their own joint business decision.

DL/AF, AA/LX, and UA/LH don't have that ability: hence their FFPs must remain independently operated for all facets of the owning carrier's business (though they are allowed to work together so far as awards, earning, etc).


User currently offlineJavomd88 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1503 times:

Hi,
Well for instance over here at MEX, passengers flying on AF to MEX and continuing on to lets say CUN, ACA or any other AM destination, They use there AF boarding pass until last destination, they dont have to go to AM and reissue another boarding pass.

Hope your return flight is OK!

Bye.
JAVO.


User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1433 times:

ConcordeBoy:

Yes, I am aware anti-trust immunity does not render alliances free from restrictions. Obviously, you are more knowledgeable about the specific limitations and restrictions of the alliances you cited.

So, is one to assume from your comments that you believe there's no reason why DL/AF, AA/LX, and UA/LH shouldn't be allowed the same level of integration as NW/KL?... i.e, you disagree with the rationale the government used to dictate the restrictions of said alliances, and if so, why? Why did/does the government come to the conclusion that the restrictions you cited are necessary to protect competition in those cases, and not with NW/KL?? Could it have anything to do with AA/UA/DL's market share/power vs. NW/KL?



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1345 times:

Could it have anything to do with AA/UA/DL's market share/power vs. NW/KL?

Bingo. NW has long been the USA's 3rd largest transatlantic carrier (though CO may have taken them over in the last year or so) and KL Europe's 4th largest airline; but they're still nothing compared to two of the other three immunized transatlantic alliances.

NW/KL were first off the bat... the later arrival (combined with the market share) of the two the significantly more powerful immunized alliances of DL/AF/AZ/OK and UA/LH/SK/OS caused them to face more scrutiny. And we all know how well AA/BA fared  Laugh out loud


User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1308 times:

Concorde Boy:

So then, based on your latest post, I take it you DO agree with the restrictions placed on the other alliances. Which leads me back to your original comment about the NW/KL alliance... your "free reign" comment seemed to imply to me that NW/KL have some type of unfair advantage over the others, allowing them to cooperate at an unprecedented level. Perhaps I'm reading too much into your words?

I maintain that regardless of the restrictionless nature of NW/KL's alliance, NW/KL are the epitome of what an alliance can be. Just because AF/DL can't codeshare btw CVG/CDG doesn't mean they can't make their relationship and operations more seamless, and brand/market themselves in the same nature as NW/KL.



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17420 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1293 times:

3rd largest transatlantic carrier? Based on what? The only way that may be possible is including KL's services in NW's transatlantic operation. On its own, NW has a non-existant European operation compared to AA, DL, and CO (DL and CO have more roundtrips from a single city, ATL and EWR respectively, than NW has in its entire European network), and to a lesser extent, even UA, whether you compare ASMs, RPMs, seats daily, roundtrips...just about anything. NW's Euro ops are about the size of US's, if you're only counting their own metal.

On another note...Skyteam is far from seamless with gaping holes all over the place. At least they've hit up some of the more infamous carriers to be in or near the alliance! Korean...Aeroflot...China Airlines...



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1266 times:

3rd largest transatlantic carrier? Based on what?

Based on available seat mileage (ASMs)



The only way that may be possible is including KL's services in NW's
transatlantic operation.


Having been here since 2000, one would think that you'd know better than to make a false blanket statement such as this; particularly without knowing as to what you speak.  Big grin

NW's A333s hold more pax than AA/UA/DL/CO's 772s do... not to mention the DC10s and 744s.

Combine that with the mileage on routes such as SEA-AMS..... and you'll see how they were able to hold CO off of the #3 spot for so long



User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17420 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1242 times:

I still don't believe you...got any hard numbers?

"NW's A333s hold more pax than AA/UA/DL/CO's 772s do... not to mention the DC10s and 744s."

True, but NW does not regularly operate the 744 to Europe anymore...it's all 333's and D10s in the current schedule and going forward. UA, however does operate the 744 to Europe, AND from the West Coast.

"Combine that with the mileage on routes such as SEA-AMS..... and you'll see how they were able to hold CO off of the #3 spot for so long"

That is ONE route and in any case CO's IAH-AMS is a longer haul in miles than SEA-AMS. Either way it's somewhat immaterial since NW ASMs on SEA-AMS are slightly higher than CO's on IAH-AMS. However, just guestimating it looks like CO has about 12% more ASMs currently than NW, and that is only including the widebody ops and not the 752 transatlantic ops. Also, UA and AA have multiple departures from LAX and SFO with 777s and 744s. That said, I remain convinced that AA, CO, DL, and UA are all ahead of NW in terms of European ASMs.

"one would think that you'd know better than to make a false blanket statement such as this; particularly without knowing as to what you speak"

That wasn't a blanket statement...it was very specific. In order for NW's ASM share across the Atlantic to appear bigger than CO's it's going to need a boost from somewhere, namely KLM. Now if I said everybody thinks NW service is crap...than that would be a blanket statement. But we all know that's not true....or whatever Wink/being sarcastic.


[Edited 2004-01-14 18:35:03]

[Edited 2004-01-14 18:35:53]


E pur si muove -Galileo
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