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Why No Int'l Style First Class Between NYC - LAX?  
User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 3
Posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5066 times:

I have always wondered why, no airlines currently offers an international style FIRST CLASS between NYC and LAX?
I would think there must be a market for it.
Current "domestic first class" is worse than Business Class on some int'l carriers.
There are many airlines out there in the world that offer superior Business class and first class on 4 - 5 hour routes. Flights between BKK, SIN and HKG.
Both BA and LY's flights between TLV - LHR, and LH on FRA - TLV, LX on ZRH - TLV. If flights to and from TLV have it, I am POSITIVE NYC - LAX and even SFO can handle it.



22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 34
Reply 1, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5006 times:

There sort of is. Some of the major carriers end up using their International fleet on some turns across the country. That said, these days people are not willing to pay for anything. When the price gets above $100, and does not include first class, filet mignon, video on demand, flat beds, free flat screen monitor to take home, free music downloads and then free live sex with one of the airlines young financial advisors, they start complaining what a rip off it is.

But that's not all, you also will need to provide a free set of steak knives and if you don't pay 17 months in advance, then you also gets this new casio watch.

J
Ps, Book now and and get lifetime passes between your home city and Buttplug, Indiana

[Edited 2004-01-17 22:16:12]

User currently offlineAanalyst From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5005 times:

Actually....AA offers a 3-class service on all its flights between JFK-LAX on B767-200's. The service is quite nice, and always full.

I'm not quite sure of what you mean by "international first class" But First in a 3 class of service is going to be pretty close!



Knowledge is Power. Power Corrupts. - Study Hard, Be Evil
User currently offlineAirxLiban From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 4518 posts, RR: 53
Reply 3, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4996 times:

Are you referring to fully flat beds etc etc?

AA has a very small first class cabin only in the 762s which they operate on the transcontinental flights.

I think part of the reason is that you don't really need to have that comfortable of a seat for only a 5 hour journey. Even though BA and LY and LX might offer it, the thing to remember is that they use the same planes on longer flights.

The BA 767s that go to TLV also go to other destinations further away, such as Nassau or Grand Cayman, Manchester-New York, etc etc. (I do believe that the 763s that fly to TLV are not the european models).

Same with the LX Airbus widebodies. On the other hand, the AA 762s are reserved almost primarily for the transcon flights. For American to offer a better first class product on LAX-JFK, it would have to start using the 777s. In any event, AA has no problem filling up that small first class cabin on the 762s.



PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
User currently offlinePiedmontGirl From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1124 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4974 times:

Amirs:

If you're talking about the upgrades in food and wine and whatnot, that should have been done sometime ago. There was a time when trans con domestic F/C done by U.S. carriers was about as good as anybody's international F/C.

I don't think it's necessary to install sleeper seats and all that. A nice F/C seat with a foot rest would be fine, especially if accompanied by a nice blanket and fluffy pillow with a starched linen pillow case and an amenity kit with some nice goodies in it.



User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4938 times:

Yes i mean flat bed and all. Nice blankets, fluffy pillows, large selection of films, upgrade the food to 5 course, with maison place settings. (the works)
It would especially be nice to see it on red eye flights.
I bet you don't even need if for a "reason," some of the travellers on the route can afford it and are looking to spend it. I think that is why the private jets are doing so well lately - the service on domestic routes are not good enough. (for those travellers of course.)

i Am also sure there is no problem with finding an a/c and configurating it for the route.


User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 34
Reply 6, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4916 times:

It would especially be nice to see it on red eye flights.
****

This is the last time you would ever see it happen. The transcon redeyes are generally sleeper flights, so thoughts of 5 course meals are not usually on anyones request list

j


User currently offlineAirxLiban From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 4518 posts, RR: 53
Reply 7, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4895 times:

The ideal plan (at least in my eyes) for an LAX-JFK journey is a red eye leaving around 11:30 or so, so you can get to the airport around 9, do the express check in, have dinner in the lounge and once the flight takes off go right to bed, waking up five hours later in new york.

This is completely possible right now. Not only on US transcons but also other night flights...BA 182 for instance JFK-LHR.

Some people (myself included) prefer the old-style thick fluffy seats like the BA Club World Cradle seat or MEA Cedar Class seat to the new, thin and narrow but flat Club World flat bed or what have you.

Whether or not the demand for private jets is positively correlated with the "not good enough" domestic first class service, the fact is that domestic first class still does extremely well.

I don't know what the plans are for American Airlines in the next 5-10 years, but maybe we will see a change in their domestic first class product. The oldest AA 767-200s are 20 years old. Maybe they are planning to replace them within the next 5 years, maybe they will see service on the transcontinental routes for 15 years longer, who knows?

Only AA's 767-200s (except for the 777s) have 3 class service.

Keep in mind that there are plenty of long routes with the european short-haul style business class and no first class!! Example: BA's LHR-BA), Turkey">IST, formerly LHR-LCA, I think even LHR-BEY...I dont think those British Med airbuses have proper C class.



PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
User currently offlinePiedmontGirl From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1124 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4827 times:

Amirs:

It would especially be nice to see it on red eye flights.

On red eyes, 75% of the passengers are sound asleep before we reach 10,000 feet and a lot of them are asleep before we leave the ground. A lot of people ride on red eyes with the intention of sleeping nearly the whole flight.

Most of these flights leave at 10 pm or so west coast time. The tourists have played all day and are tired. The business travelers have worked all day, had a meeting, and are sleeping on the flight so they'll be ready to work the next day -- all they have to do is go to their hotel, shower, shave, change clothes and they're pretty ready for a day of business.


User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4823 times:

its a product, so the flatbeds and amenities would be nice for the red eye flights, and the five course meals, entertainment etc. would be nice for day flights.
I worked as a f/a for some years now, I know what ppl need and do on red eyes and on day flights.


User currently offlineN6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4757 times:

DL offers its BizE service on this route.

User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19260 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4735 times:

But it's only a four- or five-hour flight. Hardly a long 'un.


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineLhr001 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4659 times:

Continental Airlines offers Business Elite on certain 767-200 flights between Los Angeles/San Francisco and Newark. However, the 767-200 does not always operate the route.

American Airlines offers Flagship 767-300 service from San Francisco/Los Angeles to New York/JFK depending apon the season.

Delta Airlines offers Business Elite on the 767-300 from New York/JFK to Los Angeles.

United Airlines is looking into the possibility of a Business/First equipped 757.. However, most accomplished travellers dislike the 757 as a general rule for long haul service.

Flying Times-

(approx)
San Francisco to New York/JFK or Newark
5 Hours 15 Minutes
New York/JFK to San Francisco
6 Hours 20 Minutes
Los Angeles to New York/JFK or Newark
5 Hours 10 Minutes
New York/JFK to Los Angeles
6 Hours 10 Minutes


LHR001


User currently offlineQqflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2298 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4534 times:

I am a purser for American and have flown transcons from LAX and SFO to JFK many times. The service is quite good. In first class, on a dinner flight, all components of the meal are offered on three tiered, linen-lined silver carts. During boarding, first class passengers are offered champagne, mimosas or orange juice. American calls the service "American Flagship Service" or AFS.

After takeoff...

Course 1: Hot mixed nuts, crudete (carrots and celery in pesto ranch) and a beverage.

Course 2: Appetizer. It used to be caviar until AA could no longer be guaranteed the quality from their supplier, and others cost three times more. It has since been replaced with smoked salmon, served with onion, sour cream, capers and crustinis. Champagne and vodka are served with the appetizer.

Course 3: Salad. Fresh greens served with your choice of fresh vegetables, like carrots, bell peppers, mushrooms and tomatoes. Also can be topped with a lobster tail. Two dressings, usually a creamy and a bottle of vinegar and oil. Fresh bread: sourdough, sesame wheat or cheese focaccia are the choices.

Course 4: The menu cycle varies. Typically there are three main course choices. All entres except pastas are served with some sort of potato, like horseradish mashed and vegetables. Typical items in the past have been beef filet, pork loin, leg of lamb, and chicken. Pastas are usually cheese stuffed tortolinis with a cream and marinara sauce. Also have mushroom and spinach pasta. Bread is served again. Wines usually include three reds and two whites, all chosen by the world renowned sommelier, Dr. Vine. (Yes, that really is his name!)

Course 5: Dessert. Ice cream sundaes served with your choice of hot fudge, butterscotch, strawberries, whipped cream and nuts. Also, fruit and poundcake are offered. Served with after dinner drinks, tea and coffee.

Once the meal service is finished, the flight attendants place a basket/bowl of fruit and cheese, along with some crackers on the credenza to remain there throughout the flight.

IFE: American offers personal DVD players to each passenger with a portfolio of 20 movies. The player includes a pair of BOSE Noise canceling headsets.

There are no amenity kits on these flights. Each passenger receives an oversized pillow (with linen case) and blanket.

Prior to landing, passengers are served fresh, baked on-board cookies from Otis Spunkmeyer. Two flavors are offered: either chocolate chip and sugar, chocolate chip and oatmeal raisin or chocolate chip and peanut butter. Cookies are served with milk, tea and coffee.

The lunch service is the same, with the following exceptions: Grilled chicken replaces the lobster tail as the salad topper, red wines are reduced to two selections and a chicken Caesar salad is offered as an entre.

Breakfast: Crudete and appetizer are replaced by a selection of breakfast breads and fresh juices, like orange, apple, tomato, cranberry and grapefruit. Also offered are four different Twinings teas and coffee. Entres vary and include: an omelet of some sort, cream cheese stuffed french toast or pancakes with pecan syrup or fruit and cereal.

There is no desert, however, an hour prior to landing passengers are served large fruit and cheese plates, and are offered fresh cookies.

Anyone hungry yet?




The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineAussie747 From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4495 times:

Well, I know QF flys its 3 weekly QF107-108 from LAX to NYC it has first class of that nature, but it is ashame it cannot carry local domestic pax on that route though!!!!
I thought that would be a bit of light hearted humour for the weekend, however isn't the current first class on domestic LAX to NYC comparable to other length of flights in Business class on Australia / Europe. I think it is just the standard now offered.

Reason I haven't mentioned Asia as some airlines eg SQ and CX in business class offer second to none service and wins hands down.



User currently onlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8047 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4428 times:

I think what really should be needed on LAX/SFO to JFK/EWR flights should be the following:

1. Two-class only seating, with roomier Business and Economy class seating (e.g., 34-35" pitch for Economy, 45-50" pitch for Business).

2. Increased reclining seats with footrests so passengers can get a decent rest on especially red-eye flights eastbound.

These could be applied to AA and UA 767-200's pretty easily.


User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2463 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4368 times:

Continental's service to all West Coast cities is standard, regardless of fleet type (737-700/800, 757-200/300, 767-200 are all used) and the First Class service is quite nice, a bit of a step down from AA's AFS First Class or UA's Premium First Class but certainly a step up from either airline's domestic FC offering on the non-762 flights.

On Breakfast flights, you receive a starter plate of a massive bowl of fresh sliced fruit, as well as yogurt, fresh baked muffins, croissants, bagels, and rolls served on the lavender (or baby blue) table linens. An appetizer course is offered (although most crews offer it as an entree) which often is a lox and cream cheese dish. On my last breakfast flight (1403 LAX-EWR) we had 3 entrees: apple crepes (served with syrup and fruit), a cheese omelet (served with mushrooms, potatoes, sausage, and smoked ham), or a huge bowl of cereal with milk, banana, and strawberries. Prior to arrival fresh cookies and a fruit, cheese, and cracker plate are usually served, but I tend to sleep right through that so I can't be certain.

Lunch and Dinner start off with the warm roasted nuts in a ramekin, an appetizer such as a shrimp cocktail, and a large bowl of salad. For the entrees, you traditionally can choose from a steak, game, fish, or pasta option. The entrees rotate periodically so even for someone like me who flies these transcon flights several times a month there is probably something different to eat each time. Dessert is a nice ice cream sundae with all the fixings. All this is served on the regular BusinessFirst china.

A handful of flights at key times get 757's configured in the International mode with 16 BusinessFirst seats in front of 156 Coach. This is extremely hard to get into reward-wise or through Elite upgrades, but is certainly worth it. Also, 767s are making their 2nd round of sustained transcontinental appearances, and are fantastic if you fly on one.


User currently offlineMozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2239 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4230 times:

In the context of the topic and what has been said so far, isn't it surprising that you have true international-style F class on some other domestic US flights, eg LAX-ORD or other domestic routes that see the United 744. I flew from LAX to ORD some time ago and I was in a First Suite, the same kind that is on intl flights. Out of SFO the same services exist, I think those are extensions/feeders from intl flights.

However, not sure how many domestic routes into DEN and ORD are served with 744s these days.

Other than that, I agree, the SQ concept of only business class and premium economy would be great for NY-California services. C class in that case is a sleeper seat.


User currently offlineElwood64151 From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 2477 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4121 times:

Largely, it's not done because the airlines don't make money when they offer it. Most people will pay for a larger seat, a meal (on the trans-cons), two free drinks, and that's about it. By offering more, the airlines get less money for next to nothing in terms of increased loads.

Most airlines charge more money for international routes. They can do this because the people flying those routes have comparatively fewer choices. WN and FL and B6 do not fly JFK-LGW or EWR-LHR. So the price is (generally) higher and the service is (generally) better. However, by stopping in DEN or ATL, you can fly LGA-LAX or EWR-SFO on F9 or FL, or n/s JFK-LGB on B6 for a lot less money.

So the majors do not generally offer the super-premium first class service on their transcon routes because they won't make any money off of it.



Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
User currently offlineUNITED777300 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 131 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4087 times:

UA does offer "International Style First Class" on its transcons. UA flies most of those on 762, 763, and 777; which are configured in 3-class cabins.


/// U N I T E D: It's Time to Fly.
User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4050 times:

Even with the airlines that fly on occasion or on some flights during the day, with a 3 cabin a/c, its not the same. You might get a 777 with a sleeper bed on the outbound, but on the inbound it might be a regular domestic first class on a 737/757/320. That not a way to market a product. As someone said here before, the best option would be to keep the 2 cabin configuration, but with a premium style business class and economy. Most important are the sleepers.
If it is a problem for the airlines to have all its transcon flights with same product on board, then as i said before atlast have the sleepers on the red eye. I am sure that if one of the majors, markets the transcon red eye with sleeper beds - they willl be the first to sell the flights plus be able to charge atleast an extra $750 - 1100.


User currently offlineJeffrito From United States of America, joined May 2001, 133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4003 times:

Keep the NetJets-factor in mind. It's a huge and growing business. Every customer they (and their competitors) have is the same person that used to keep the premium first-class airline product profitable. Once a big-spender opts for fractional ownership, they will never return to the commercial aviation fold.

No matter what fancy service the airlines offer, the convenience of flying commerically is gone forever, thanks in no small part to Osama & Company.

I have no doubt that this trend will begin to have a larger impact on the transatlantic market as well.

So the answer to your question might be: For the wealthy frequent flyer, fractional ownership has replaced "int'l style" first class as the preferred product domestically.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3849 times:

I was just about to post the same thing, fractional jet ownership has made FBO more appealing to those in the Corporate and Entertainment fields. It's private, faster and with todays security standards less stressful than flying commercial.

Alot of people who have the money or who work for major corporations who could afford to fly Trans-Cons from JFK-LAX in First Class can also afford to fly Burbank-Teterboro in a G-V, they might have to share the plane with a few people but they would most likely be people within the same corporate/entertainment world.




Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
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