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Dallas Love DAL  
User currently offlineRyder10uk From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2003, 120 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 11 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3111 times:

Does anyone know whether AA will return to DAL i know Legend Airlines had a load of new Gates builtthere then went bust!! what a waste of space, will any airline take over??

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (10 years 11 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3064 times:

The "load" of new gates was only 4 gates, and they didn't even have swinging jetways -- they only aircraft they could accomodate would be DC-9s (and maybe MD-80s).


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Plus, Legend was in a completely new and different terminal, completely on the other side of the airport than the main DAL terminal. When Legend was there, many passengers were confused and often showed up at the main terminal, causing many missed flights and delays. I'm not sure what the terminal is being used for now, but I would assume it might be used someday for private jet travel. I have no idea about this, however.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6206 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (10 years 11 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3031 times:

I doubt AA will return; pretty sure they just went to 'compete' with Legend. Since Legend is gone - no competition necessary!

The Legend terminal was used with Delta Connection for a time.



Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4287 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (10 years 11 months 4 days ago) and read 2982 times:

The North Concourse, which in theory could hold 9 or so gates, and the East Concourse would be of more immediate interest to any airlines wishing to initiate operations into DAL. The NC is connected to the main terminal building, which is right off Mockingbird Lane, very close to Interstate 35 and the North Dallas Tollway. The City of Dallas owns the North Concourse, though, and do not really want to allow airlines to fly out of there. Moreover, there are no jetways, and the concourse has not been renovated in a few decades. It would cost a good amount of money to completely renovate the concourse and make it into an area into which airlines would want to fly. The East Councourse, aside from the 2 gates leased by Continental Express, was recently demolished or set to be demolished as a sign from the City of Dallas that there will not be increased operations from Love Field.
The main problem with Legend's terminal is that it is off of Lemmon and Lovers on the East side of the airport. The rental car companies and shops are all located in the main terminal and West Concourse, with the exception of the coffee and magazine shop in the East Concourse for Continental Express. The Legend Terminal has no amenities and is in an area that is hard to see from the road and can be hard to get out of.
American has no desire to return to DAL. They have all the gates, space, and revenue they need operating from DFW. Legend caused AA to divert resources, costing AA a good amount of money and consternation. The F100s they flew were pretty nice, however.
The main lessons to be taken away from Legend's attempt at DAL, though, are 1) that American will move in to squash you like a bug if you try to enter DAL; 2) even if they cannot squash you service wise, they will flood you with lawsuits and nearly bankrupt you before you can even get off the ground; and 3) the Dallas business community, as much as they have talked about wanting lower airfares and more competition, will not truly support a new interstate carrier flying out of DAL. Legend's planes were sometimes full, but they offered deep deep discounts online, meaning the flights were usually low yield. When one can fly first class DAL-LAX for $150, it is not necessarily a sign of good things to come.
I liked Legend, am a big fan of DAL, and wish that the Wrong Amendment would be repealed faster than an Alex Rodriguez to the Red Sox trade rumor. However, with that not being likely, DAL will remain WN's stomping grounds (great terminal, best airline, convenient to get to, fly out of there to HOU, ABQ, ELP, TUL, and MAF) with limited competition from Continental Express and that is it. With the Cities of Dallas and Fort Worth, American, Delta, and Southwest all against repealing the Wright Amendment, a discussion on the expansion of service from DAL is, unfortunately, moot.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineAmtrakGuy From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 500 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 11 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2904 times:

Texan (and others),

Do you think the City of Dallas may change their mind about against Wright Amendment? It been years since this was last amended and different people are running the City of Dallas (and the City Council). I would think that this whole Wright Amendment is outdated and unnecessary now.

I would hope some type of compromise -- like allowing airlines (Southwest) to start new routes -- like 2 or 3 routes a year until the whole Wright Amendments is repealed. Or allow Southwest to do direct (with one stop) flight like from DAL to BWI with one stop in HOU.

Dave


User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (10 years 11 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2878 times:

The city of Dallas never really wanted the Wright Amendment. You need to talk to the city fathers of Fort Worth about changing that...and they don't seem too inclined to change it anytime soon.

User currently offlineAeroArgentina From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 192 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (10 years 11 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2831 times:

"With the Cities of Dallas and Fort Worth, American, Delta, and Southwest all against repealing the Wright Amendment"

Why would Southwest not want to get rid of the wright ammendmant?


User currently offlineJcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 7, posted (10 years 11 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2817 times:

The city of Dallas would benefit from the Wright Amendment being lifted, they have no problem with more carriers coming into DAL. Its just more income for them.

The city of Ft. Worth is essentially the bitch of Metroplex aviation. It was the city of Ft. Worth that brought a lawsuit against the city of Dallas when DFW was proposed to be built to have it moved further west, to at the time in between the borders of Dallas and Ft. Worth. Ft. Worth and its state and national representatives are what keeps the Wright Amendment from being lifted or ammended (to include connecting traffic outside the Wright Amendment zone to DAL). Its a real shame because the vast majority of local traffic is from east of DFW. Ft. Worthless is a dead city, there is very little growth, and what is growing there are non-technology businesses. AMR and Ft. Worth are in bed together to keep the Wright Amendment from being lifted because Ft. Worth gets a cut of DFW income and it is a real hassle monetarily for AA to have to drive out every competitor from DAL. Thus, AA built a maintenance center at AFW.

Also, if I am not mistaken, there were other airports around Dallas that FedEx was looking to build a regional hub at. When Ft. Worth got wind of this, they threatened suit against FedEx and various GA Dallas airports so that the regional hub would be built at Ft. Worth Alliance--which is a very long distance from where most of FedEx's business is...the Dallas area.

At DAL, Continental Express does very well with its DAL-IAH runs, its up to 7x-8x daily on weekdays and 4-5x on weekends. Its fantastic for people like me, who live only 10 minutes away from DAL (the same amount of time it takes to get to Dallas from DAL). The parking is cheaper, I don't have to get on the freeway, and getting through the airport is a breeze. The only problem is that CO doesn't promote this service at all through advertising. The same thing could be said about DL's ATL service before they pulled out. If DL travellers in Atlanta knew that there were flights between ATL-DAL, the flights would still be in existance.

I'm hoping that eventually, CO will upgrade to 737 service to Love Field during peak hours. Those flights are completely packed during weekdays.



America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineJeffrey1970 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1336 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (10 years 11 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2810 times:

To change the Wright ammendment is not up to the city fathers of Dallas or Fort Worth, it is up to the US Congress.

God bless through Jesus,

Jeff



God bless through Jesus, Jeff
User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4287 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (10 years 11 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2812 times:

The City of Dallas was and is in favor of the Wright Amendment. When Southwest attempted to stay at DAL when DFW opened, Dallas and Fort Worth sued WN in an attempt to force them to move to DFW. Now, however, not only do the cities of Dallas and Fort Worth not want the Wright Amendment changed (for differing reasons: Fort Worth thinks DAL will steal traffic from DFW and Dallas because of pressure from residents around the airport, especially in Highland Park and University Park), but WN does not want it changed. If DAL opens up, that means that carriers will be free to challenge WN's monopoly status at DAL. Not that they are scared of being driven out of any markets, but the people at WN know a good deal when they see one, and controlling 96% of an airport's traffic is an extraordinarily good deal.
In the end, though, it does not matter whether or not Dallas and Fort Worth come to any agreements. It is, unfortunately, a federal matter, having been brought into law by former Speaker of The House of Representatives Jim Wright from (you guessed it!) Fort Worth. In 1998, The Shelby Act (after Richard Shelby of Alabama) was passed, clarifying some of the language in the Act and adding Mississippi, Alabama, and Kansas to the states airlines are allowed to fly to from DAL.
Now to get into the actual opinion part of this: DAL should be opened up. It is closer to the CBD, SMU, and many parts of the city than is DFW. It will allow Dallasites a greater choice in travel to more cities than is currently allowed, and it will give us lower fares to cities like STL, FLL, and MCI. By increasing the flights out of DAL, more revenue will be created for the airport and therefore for the city. More revenue for the city means that we can improve the streets, schools, light rail line (which is supposed to open to Love Field from the CBD in 2009...what perfect timing for the amendment to be repealed!) and other city and social services to make Dallas an even more attractive place for more people and businesses to live. It will bring more people and businesses to the CBD and Arena areas, leading to increased residential living in those areas, allowing, once more, for more tax dollars to be raised to support the city.
Many who are against opening up DAL claim two big reasons: 1) noise; and 2) it will steal traffic from DFW. Thankfully, both of these arguments can be argued in one fell swoop. Currently, only the Legend Terminal and gate 26 in the North Concourse are ready for service. That is only 5 gates adding, at most, 50 +- 5 daily flights. If the entire North Concourse is redesigned and 9 gates are in use 1-2 years after the Wright Amendment is passed, that adds, at most, 80 more flights per day. However, it is very unlikely that the airport will fill all of the gates extraordinarily quickly. It will be a more gradual process, and planes will mostly fly to key business destinations. There is already a curfew in effect for DAL which prohibits certain types of night operations, and noise procedures are in effect. Expansion at the East Concourse could not occur because it is no more. That means that over time, up to 130 more daily flights could occur at DAL. Most of these would likely be operated by WN. However, after those 130 flights are used up, there is no place to expand. DAL will reach its maximum capacity very quickly. Airlines will not have to switch operations from DFW to DAL because 1) DAL is almost all O&D traffic, while AA and DL are mostly connecting traffic at DFW; and 2) the increase in population and demand for flights will increase dramatically between now and the time everything at DAL could be ready. The DFW metro area is forecast to have around 15 million people by 2020 all served by only one airport that can take people out of the state and the states immediately surrounding us. DAL will provide some relief for DFW, while giving people who won't want to drive from the east and south sides of Dallas a much needed alternative airport, one that will not take an hour or more to get to. Especially since there will be construction on Interstate 635 until the end of time, as they will be attempting to expand it dramatically in order to hold the increased amount of traffic that will be using it.
In conclusion, opening up DAL makes sense for Dallas, its people, and the Metroplex in general. It will not add excessive noise nor will it steal traffic away from DFW due to capacity restraints. However, it is unlikely to happen because of local, state, and national politics.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineSWAFA30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (10 years 11 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2796 times:

Why would Southwest not want to get rid of the wright ammendmant?

With the Wright Ammendment in place, we essentially have Love Field all to ourselves with no significant competition.



User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4287 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (10 years 11 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2788 times:

Jcs17:
Continental cannot upgrade the service on the route because of the contract they signed with DFW Airport while it was being built. In it, it is stated that no airline which signs the contract can operate into DAL at any time. AA sued Continental over their using ExpressJet to fly into DAL before service was started. They lost because ExpressJet was deemed to be a separate, nonsignatory entity. That opened the door for ASA service to ATL. AA was granted an exemption to compete with Legend.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17823 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (10 years 11 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2775 times:

I think time and economics has proved that DAL is really none more desirable than DFW. It's not Dallas' Laguardia or Midway, and despite attempts by AA, CO, and DL to make inroads at DAL, they have all failed and pulled out, with the exception of a few CO flights to IAH. Even if the Wright amendment was lifted, I would not expect a huge rush to switch to DAL, even by LCCs.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineJcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 13, posted (10 years 11 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2727 times:

The City of Dallas was and is in favor of the Wright Amendment. When Southwest attempted to stay at DAL when DFW opened, Dallas and Fort Worth sued WN in an attempt to force them to move to DFW. Now, however, not only do the cities of Dallas and Fort Worth not want the Wright Amendment changed (for differing reasons: Fort Worth thinks DAL will steal traffic from DFW and Dallas because of pressure from residents around the airport, especially in Highland Park and University Park), but WN does not want it changed. If DAL opens up, that means that carriers will be free to challenge WN's monopoly status at DAL. Not that they are scared of being driven out of any markets, but the people at WN know a good deal when they see one, and controlling 96% of an airport's traffic is an extraordinarily good deal.

WN is perfectly happy at DAL and there really has been no threat of them moving to DFW. Now that WN is at DAL, Dallas would sue them if they threatened to leave the airport because of lost revenue. That being said, Dallas might have mixed feelings about the amendment being lifted because they might fear WN leaving. I also wouldn't count on any problems from Park Cities residents, really the only people that noise from DAL impacts is people living on the westside of the Tollway (not HP/UP). In fact, nearly all the traffic avoids flying over the Park Cities anyway. Approaches and takeoffs occur over low-income housing and commercial property...not a problem.



America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineJcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 14, posted (10 years 11 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2725 times:

Besides, if there was really a problem with noise, don't you think that it would have already been voiced over WN's use of the 732?


America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineWilliam From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1349 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (10 years 11 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2690 times:

What are you talking about,they have ALWAYS complained about the noise. Just because its not on the news doesn't mean the residents have changed their feelings on the matter.

User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (10 years 11 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2659 times:

Guys,

I hate to say it, but you find me ANY airport in a decent metro area (i.e., not in the middle of Montana, where there's NO air service) that has residents supporting expansion, and I'll buy you an expensive dinner.

I bet that if you held a blind referendum on CLOSING Dallas-Love, it would garner significant support. Any proposal to build it up more would be laughed at.

"It would bring more carriers to Dallas" has to be the weakest argument I've heard. After all, Airtran is building up already at DFW, and others are there already. Who else is going to come to the table that can't fly to DFW? Be realistic.

Steve


User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (10 years 11 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2648 times:

With the Wright Ammendment in place, we essentially have Love Field all to ourselves with no significant competition

And you know something...without the right ammendment, you still wouldn't have any "significant competition". AA can't open up a second hub 12 miles down the road, and they can't depend strictly on connecting traffic to fill their planes at DFW - so they'd most likely stay put. Delta's the same way. The other airlines might send their flights over to DAL, but I doubt it...It'd be pretty much like HOU or MDW -


User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4287 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (10 years 11 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2621 times:

Sllevin:
I probably should have made myself clearer. It would bring more carriers to Love Field. DFW has all the major domestic carriers as well as a good (and hopefully growing) number of international carriers. What I probably should have said is that opening up DAL would provide more choices for people living in East and South Dallas as well as Midtown and the Park Cities. Sorry about not making it clear Smile

Jcs17:
I also by no means meant that anybody would try to force out WN, and WN will not leave DAL if it is eventually opened up, they will simply expand into the North Concourse as well. And the Park Cities residents complain about eveything and have an organization against opening up DAL to more flights, as well as just anti-DAL in general. You are right, basically all flights avoid the Park Cities, but the potential for increased road traffic and noise pollution is a big stickling point with them. Wal-Mart was interested in opening up a Supercenter near Lemmon and Mockingbird at the old Sym's location, but the Park Cities residents muscled up and put enough political pressure on the Dallas City Council that Wal-Mart was not allowed to move in there.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineRamprat74 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1546 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (10 years 11 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2517 times:

In this picture. Is the North concourse the one with all the buildings next to it? What concourse was Braniffs back in the day? Were there any other concourses at DAL?


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User currently offlineJcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 20, posted (10 years 11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2502 times:

You are right, basically all flights avoid the Park Cities, but the potential for increased road traffic and noise pollution is a big stickling point with them. Wal-Mart was interested in opening up a Supercenter near Lemmon and Mockingbird at the old Sym's location, but the Park Cities residents muscled up and put enough political pressure on the Dallas City Council that Wal-Mart was not allowed to move in there.

Highland and University Park border the Tollway, they don't come close to Mockingbird and Lemmon. You can tell where each one ends because the signs lose the UP logo in University Park's case, or they are not blue in Highland Park's case. The pressure was applied by other local Dallas residents.



America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4287 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (10 years 11 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2426 times:

Highland and University Park border the Tollway, they don't come close to Mockingbird and Lemmon. You can tell where each one ends because the signs lose the UP logo in University Park's case, or they are not blue in Highland Park's case. The pressure was applied by other local Dallas residents.

Most assuredly, HP and UP do end at the Tollway. However, they do not want increased traffic along Mockingbird; they don't want the types of people who use Walmart in their neighborhoods; and every time anybody talks about Love Field, the HP and UP citizens come out swinging. Other locals have applied pressure, but HP and UP are the most vocal and the ones with the best financial backing. Never said what they do makes sense, but since when have Park Cities people ever made sense? Smile

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineJsnww81 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2074 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (10 years 11 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2388 times:

To answer Ramprat's question:

Yes, the North Concourse is the one wtih all the buildings along it (two GA hangars on the north side, and a Southwest - formerly Muse Air - overnight hangar on the south side). Before DFW opened, it was occupied by Southwest, Delta, Eastern and Frontier. Delta had nine upper-level gates with jetways, while the other airlines all used airstairs for boarding.

Today most of the concourse has been converted to offices, with Southwest using the old Delta upper-level gates as a training facility for new employees. The Dallas Aviation Department has offices in the far gates, which are worthless anyhow, as the hangars were built in front of them. If airline operations do return to the North Concourse, I'd imagine the whole thing would be demolished and rebuilt - right now there's a LOT of asbestos in the concourse, and I recall reading that removing it would be more expensive than just starting over.

Braniff and Texas International flew out of the East Concourse extension (basically a separate terminal) that opened in 1968. That area was demolished in 2002. Continental operates from two renovated gates in the East Concourse - interestingly enough, those are the two gates CO used before the move to DFW in 1974. American also used these gates, but was scheduled to move to three brand-new gates on September 11, 2001. Obviously that never happened (AA suspended DAL service on 9/11 and never returned) but the gates are still there, freshly renovated and waiting for a tenant.


User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 16
Reply 23, posted (10 years 11 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2362 times:

Besides, if there was really a problem with noise, don't you think that it would have already been voiced over WN's use of the 732?

Actually, SWA's 732's have been hushkitted and they are quieter than the business jets (that some HP and UP residents utilize) that operate out of there. Plus....the 732's will be gone most likely this year.


User currently offlineRedraider From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 531 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (10 years 11 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2326 times:

It's my understanding that Love Field will actually expand the number of gates to 32 per the Master Plan approved by the Dallas City Council in 2001 with the aim of turning DAL into a regional hub.

http://www.dallaslovefieldmasterplan.com/Main.htm



My wife can't wrestle, but you should see her box.
25 DCA-ROCguy : Just a couple of questions and points, for what they're worth: What jurisdiction to Park Cities residents have in the matter? The airport is located i
26 Ramprat74 : Jsnww81 Thanks for you help.
27 Post contains images Jcs17 : What jurisdiction to Park Cities residents have in the matter? The airport is located in Dallas, owned and operated by Dallas. Other than lawsuits, wh
28 Jsnww81 : Jcs17 is right... the Park Cities aren't directly impacted by Love Field noise, much as some of them might like to claim they are. The runways don't p
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