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Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?  
User currently offlineIslandHopperCO From Micronesia, joined Dec 2003, 225 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 19024 times:

I have a friend in Moscow whom I wish to visit soon, and I talked about flying Aeroflot who has good fares. My friend recommended against it, saying that Aeroflot is lax with rules. He swears that a pilot once let his son fly an Aeroflot jet, and the child crashed it!

Sounds like an urban legend, but he is not one to lie. I looked all over Airdisaster and Aviation Safety websites, but couldn't find out anything. If it's true, does anyone have any links describing the incident?

I will probably fly Aeroflot anyway, but that's a scary story if true.

58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHomeroid From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 18923 times:

It is true, sort of. The pilot's son didn't purposely crash it. He was sitting in the captain's seat and the pilot's daughter was in the co-pilot's seat. I think the son accidentally disconnected the autopilot, and the A310 ended up stalling and then entered a spin. The crew almost regained control but didn't, and everyone on board perished.

User currently offlineStarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1129 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 18902 times:

Actually happened.

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/f-ogqs/photo.shtml




Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineTG992 From New Zealand, joined Jan 2001, 2910 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 18894 times:

Date: 03/23/1994
Location: Mezhdurechensk, Russia
Airline: Aeroflot
Aircraft: Airbus A310-300
Registration: F-OGQS
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 75:75

Details: The aircraft crashed after a captain allowed his child to manipulate the controls of the plane. The pilot's 11 year old daughter and 16 year old son were taking turns in the pilot's seat. While the boy was flying, he inadvertently disengaged the autopilot linkage to the ailerons and put the airliner in a bank of 90 degrees which caused the nose to drop sharply. The co-pilot pulled back on the yoke to obtain level flight but the plane stalled. With his seat pulled all the way back, the co-pilot in the right hand seat could not properly control the aircraft. After several stalls and rapid pull-ups the plane went into a spiral descent. In the end the co-pilot initiated a 4.8g pull-up and nearly regained a stable flight path but the aircraft struck the ground in an almost level attitude killing all aboard. The aircraft was named Glinka, after Mikhail Glinka, the father of Russian music.



-
User currently offlineTWAMD-80 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1006 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 18888 times:

I have heard the same thing. The story that I was told was that the pilot let his son come up and fly the jet-I don't recall what kind it was, but anyways the plane ended up crashing killing all onboard. I am not sure how accurate this is though.

TW



Two A-4's, left ten o'clock level continue left turn!
User currently offlineKtliem@yvr From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 18861 times:

Sad, but true!

From
"Specific accidents covered here (i.e. the book Air Disasters) include the Aeroflot A310 which crashed enroute to Hong Kong, with the pilot's son occupying the pilot seat."

Source:

Air Disaster (Vol. 3) By: MacArthur Job
Paperback - 188 pages
Published by: Australian Aviation
Publication Date: February 1999
Dimensions (in inches): 0.35 x 10.89 x 8.29
ISBN: 187567134X

http://www.plant-maintenance.com/books/187567134X.shtml


User currently offlinePositive rate From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 2143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 18573 times:

Yep it's certainly true, i read about it in Air Disaster vol. 3. The Captain in fact first let his daughter fly the plane and then let his 15 year old son fly it. The stupid thing was that the co-pilot had his seat fully back and couldn't reach the controls when he needed to due to high G forces. The crew should have been aware of the autopilot disconnect but they were a bit unfamiliar with the Airbus systems as opposed to the classic soviet era jets they were used to flying and so the plane stalled and eventually entered a spin- hitting the ground in a level attitude at a rate of descent of around 30,000 feet/min.

User currently offlineBoeing nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 18365 times:

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/f-ogqs/photo.shtml


User currently offlineSLCPilot From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 592 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 18159 times:

OK, somebody help me fill in the blanks....

I think the same thing happened with a KC-135. As I recall, it was an orientation flight with family members on board, and there was a spouse at the helm. Things got out of hand and the plane crashed, in Maryland, I think...

Can anybody confirm this?

SLCPilot



I don't like to be fueled by anger, I don't like to be fooled by lust...
User currently offlineIslandHopperCO From Micronesia, joined Dec 2003, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 17869 times:

Wow! I can't believe that a pilot would put an 11 year old and a 16 year old at the helm of a widebody jet!!! I had no idea it was a (relatively) large A310. WHAT AN IDIOT PILOT!!! How can someone smart enough to become a captain of a widebody be so stupid and irresponsible.

It's not like they're driving the family car, it's 75 peoples LIVES for pete's sake! At least we can be thankful there were so few people aboard the plane, an A310 has a lot more capacity. Still, 75 deaths because of an idiotic decision.

Maybe I'll think twice about flying Aeroflot after all.


User currently online727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6608 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 17792 times:

SLC Pilot, I've heard about that KC-135 as well, but I don't have the exact details.


Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineBeefer From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 17696 times:

Sounds like another arguement for keeping the door closed and visitors out of the cockpit during flight.

Certainly would have kept something like this happening.


User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1575 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 17551 times:

.... in a level attitude at a rate of descent of around 30,000 feet/min

I highly doubt it.



Widen your world
User currently offlineBongo From Colombia, joined Oct 2003, 1863 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 17402 times:

Just to let you know guys that I won't never never fly with Aeroflot  Pissed


MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 17329 times:

.... in a level attitude at a rate of descent of around 30,000 feet/min

I highly doubt it.


It is possible....... an aircraft of that size in a stall has the flying ability of a freight train.



"Talk to me, Goose..."
User currently offlineMITaero From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 497 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 17253 times:

>.... in a level attitude at a rate of descent of around 30,000 feet/min
>I highly doubt it.

Totally reasonable in a 4.8g pull-up.


User currently offlinePlanenutz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 17050 times:

Does anyone know what the ramifications were for Aeroflot? I'm surprised that they didnt have their air operators certificate revoked in several counrtries after an incident like this. Or at least be fined a whole lotta money.

Also, I dont recall any huge media coverage of the crash. For some reason it ws kept quiet at the time, and didnt really come to light until several years later.



User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 919 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 16971 times:

Things like that happen in Russia. Rules are meant to be broken. I've seen such things many times, though on a lot smaller scale.

User currently offlineMirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7444 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 16833 times:
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Wow that is unbelievable.

My goondess, I truly thought this was one of those rumors.

I guess that is one reason to do away with "Take your kids to work" day.

wow.



Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2081 posts, RR: 36
Reply 19, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 16685 times:

Funny this topic came up (nothing funny about the story of course). When I was home over break I was talking to my neighbor (he came over for some insurance biz w/ my dad) who is a UAL 744 captain (formerly 777/767). We were talking about how he's been all over Europe, and I asked him about some of his experiences over there . One of the very first thing that came up was Aeroflot, he said when he would be offered the Jumpseat into AMS or wherever he was going he said over his dead body. He told me that he'd rather drive or wait for a red-eye than fly w/ Aeroflot. He said one time was enough for the rest of his life on Aeroflot. Big thumbs up

User currently offlineCmckeithen From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 617 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 16520 times:

What is wrong with these international air carriers. They lack common sense in my opinion as far as safety goes and the pilots who fly the planes also lack common sense.

Take Swiss Air Flight 111 for example. You have smoke in the cockpit (who cares if your a by the book Captin) YOU LAND THE PLANE as soon as you can. They made the tragic mistake of waiting to COMPLY with Swiss Air company procedures as to declaring a smoke in cockpit emergency. Then they waste 25mins diverting to dump fuel. YOU LAND. Smoke = Fire. The manufactures are also to blame in that one. WHY put insulation that can burn eaisly on an aircraft? Hello, are they even considering safety?

In the USA you would NEVER hear about a pilots son/daughter in the cockpit let alone flying it for a sec. They would not be allowed in there for a milisecond.



User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 16479 times:

Then they waste 25mins diverting to dump fuel.

Um, YOU HAVE TO DUMP FUEL TO LAND A PLANE THAT HEAVY. Procedures help keep people alive.

The Aeroflot incident was the subject of a book by Michael Creighton called Airframe, except most of the people in the book lived.

It was also about the "Norton N-22" widebody jet, also a stab at the inherent instability and problems discovered in the MD-11 around the time of the book's release.

N


User currently offlineCmckeithen From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 617 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 16427 times:

Then they should have made the decison sooner than they did. At that point they had no choice but to land with the amount of fuel they had already.

User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 16287 times:

Um, YOU HAVE TO DUMP FUEL TO LAND A PLANE THAT HEAVY. Procedures help keep people alive.

No, you don't. You can still land a plane which is grossly overweight.... it won't be pretty, you might snap the gear (a la FedEx in MEM less than a month ago) or run off the runway, and it's likely the aircraft would never fly again.

But.... I'll make it simple by contrasting the two;

A written off aircraft and some (if not most) people alive, but the PIC ignored company and manufacturer procedures is still good outcome.

An aircraft destroyed and all people aboard killed, but the PIC followed all procedures to the letter will always be a bad outcome.



"Talk to me, Goose..."
User currently offlineAviadvigatel From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2004, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 years 10 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 16278 times:

Anyone who states that they won't fly with Aeroflot needs a reality check. Okay, so it's a horrific story, the accident was avoidable and the Captain showed fatally poor judgement.... but if you don't think that human error (including stupidity!) is the majority cause of most aviation accidents worldwide, then you'd better stay at home.
According to the story in the link below, Soviet air safety has been equal or better than that in the US, except in 1986 and there were no civil aviation casualties from 1997 until mid 2001. I remember that this has also been the case in more recent years, even discounting the casualties from 9/11. In 2002 there were 3 accidents in the US, 2 in Russia; In 2003 - 3 in the US 1 in Russia (Aviation Safety Network).
IslandHopperCO, if that doesn't convince you, you get a cooked meal with Aeroflot rather than a roll with BABig grin

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2160019.stm


25 Cmckeithen : Then explain why the Soviets in Jul 1983 SHOT down a commerical jet. The USA has the safest record when it comes to Aviation.
26 Sterne82 : And what's the link between a question on Aeroflot "supposed unsecurity" (which is quite "laughable", to my opinion) and the Korean airlines B747 whic
27 Aloges : "Then explain why the Soviets in Jul 1983 SHOT down a commerical jet." What does that have to do with anything? If you count the victims, and the USSR
28 Cmckeithen : Exuse me. The USSR did not even warn the KAL flight that the were in soviet airspace and even so...this was a COMMERICAL PLANE. TONS OF INNOCENT men,
29 Goose : Then explain why the Soviets in Jul 1983 SHOT down a commerical jet. The USA has the safest record when it comes to Aviation. There's quite a few coun
30 Rick767 : "Um, YOU HAVE TO DUMP FUEL TO LAND A PLANE THAT HEAVY. Procedures help keep people alive." Actually, that is a common misconception. Large commercial
31 Post contains links USAFHummer : Gigneil... I believe Airframe was based on a little bit of the SV incident, but mostly on this one right here: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_i
32 PVD757 : If I'm not mistaken, a plane can be overweight and still land. That is just the safe rating for the aircraft to land. When I worked for AA in PHL, we
33 Airliner777 : Good point Rick! Interesting and reasonable tips about those B767s Sir!!!
34 IslandHopperCO : Yeah, I wonder why the press never picked up on this incident. I'd never heard of it before, and I remember most major air crashes! Was there some pol
35 Likesplanes : Perhaps someone can clarify this further. The accident report that I read on the Airdisaster.com link indicates that the plane hit the ground two minu
36 Cloudy : The press does not cover Russian and third world crashes as much as they do crashes in first world countries or involving first-world airlines. The ma
37 Oz777 : cmckeithen Before you get on you high horse about the KAL007 incident, you should perhaps study the USa involvement in the downing of an IranAir A300
38 Positive rate : Well i've got the Air Disaster vol 3. right in front of me now. The highest rate of descent attained was at one point 39,870 FPM which reduced to abou
39 PA34plt : Oz777: At least the American ship attempted contact with the Iranian jet.
40 Md11lover : CMCKeithen, I dont think you re in a position to judge the procedures taken by the SR111 crew. Im sure they didnt want the accident to occur either.
41 AR385 : Notwithstanding what the final report on the SR111 accident says (I'm not sure it's out) There is a bunch of research by NASA and other institutions t
42 Afay1 : Some of you are also forgetting that Russia is a different country than the Soviet Union, despite lingering attitudes and procedures. There is no just
43 Cloudy : There is no justification or excuse that can be made for the A310 incident; however, for every aviation accident in the 2nd or 3rd world, an equally s
44 Post contains images Afay1 : Point taken. However, I do have a rebuttal . You are quite correct that most accidents in the 2nd/3rd world are much simpler to define; i.e. clearly b
45 Goose : When stating that "Aeroflot has tons of crashes on its record" ... you have to take into account that, during the Soviet era, Aeroflot was of gargantu
46 SFO2SVO : One more thing. That A310 was not actually operated by Aeroflot but rather by the company called "Aeroflot-RMAL". RMAL (Rossijskie Mezhdunarodnye Avia
47 Post contains links Dexter : There's no point in making blank statements. Take the statistics. Aero International (http://www.aerointernational.de), which is a highly respected Ge
48 Post contains images Espion007 : Just to let you know guys that I won't never never fly with Aeroflot That is the most ignorant statement ive ever seen.Aeroflot is a fine airline with
49 Cloudy : Point taken. However, I do have a rebuttal . You are quite correct that most accidents in the 2nd/3rd world are much simpler to define; i.e. clearly b
50 Sonic : Actually, Russian military conacted Korean Airlines plane several times. The problem was that KAL plane was not using local frequencies because they t
51 Russophile : One more thing. That A310 was not actually operated by Aeroflot but rather by the company called "Aeroflot-RMAL". RMAL (Rossijskie Mezhdunarodnye Avia
52 Standby87 : CMCKeithen - please have some respect for those who died on SR111. Below us lives an ex-Swissair (now Swiss) stewardess some of whose former crew trai
53 AviationMaster : Cmckeithen: Before posting crap like that about the pilots of Swissair 111, I would like you to go over your books. I recommend you to check out the l
54 Cmckeithen : There are many accounts on how SR111 crashed. However, many decisions the crew made that I saw (based on a National Geographic TV Documentary) were qu
55 Post contains links Swake : 'However, many decisions the crew made that I saw (based on a National Geographic TV Documentary) were questionable' Which decisions then? You better
56 FlyingColours : In relation to SR111 couldn't they have ditched once (or if) they figured that the fire was getting out of control or too big (perhaps by the rate of
57 Jetguy : I seem to remember something about an accident 25 - 30 years ago where the Captain of a Mexican airliners (Areo Mexico?) got a B-727 into a deep stall
58 Pe@rson : I've flown SU 4 times to date and never had any problem whatsoever. I'd actually prefer to fly aboard a barely-known carrier than an award-winning, hi
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