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Future Of AC's YYZ Network  
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4970 posts, RR: 51
Posted (10 years 6 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3700 times:

Need some ideas here..

I was brainstorming to see what AC could possibly come up with out of YYZ for the future, given that the A345/6's may come into the fleet.

Do the future routes have any potential with AC:
YYZ-HKG?
YYZ-KIX?
YYZ-ICN?
YYZ-JNB?
YYZ-DXB?
YYZ-TPE?

Im interested to hear some opinions!

Mark

48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMartinairYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 1209 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (10 years 6 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3673 times:

Hmmm... Air Canada may go under soon, but SA willdo well on the YYZ-JNB route!

Everything from YYZ is a profit and a joy to spotters!



Chelsea Football Club supporter.
User currently offlineYegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1723 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (10 years 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3637 times:


It would make a lot more sense to consolidate all flights to Asia from YVR. even if it means flying twice to ICN, TPE and so forth from YVR.

We keep hearing about JNB. I just don't know why Air Canada would want to fly half way around the world when it can easily codeshare with LH and OS on these routes.

DXB.... if EK jumps in first. AC would never even entertain the possibility.





User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3633 times:

Everything from YYZ is a profit and a joy to spotters!

Thank you for your insightful comments.


User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (10 years 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3585 times:

Why would SA do well as opposed to AC on the same route with the same equipment? Let's try to see if Air Canada can once again make Canadians proud with their financial position and with their customer focus. Yes, as a spotter it would be cool to see SA fly in here with an A340, but as a Canadian, it would make me proud to see a successful Air Canada profitably fly the same route. It means more jobs for Canadians and more money into the pockets of Canadians, meaning our next door neighbours, our family and friends.


"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineMartinairYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 1209 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (10 years 6 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3521 times:

Now Nuno,

If SA flies here, the choice will be a bigger variety which equals to competition, and lower fares from the better airline!

If may bring money into our pockets but I'd rather have half-price airfare on SA than bloody expensive tickets just to fly Error Canada..... Thanks, even though AC is good in some places, in the ticketmarket they are tooooooo high priced.




Chelsea Football Club supporter.
User currently offlineYegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1723 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (10 years 6 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3501 times:

Captiangomes....
The Canadian market (out of YYZ anyway) is overly priced. Reason: lack of substantial compeition.

it's always cheaper to fly from ORD to LHR via YYZ on AC than to fly from YYZ to LHR nonstop.

So more airlines will make it easy for consumers to fly from and TO Canada. Cheap ticket prices often lure Foreign tourists


User currently offlineAirbusfanYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2002, 1433 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (10 years 6 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3477 times:

It must be that many of the AC bashers on a.net are occasional flyers or ex-CP staff. I cannot fathom why AC is viewed so negatively when the offer one of the best mainline products in North America.
No doubt AC still has a very long way to go to but I agree with Captaingomes that I hope that AC can works things out and make the true north strong and proud.  Smile

Marc I see;
YYZ-JNB
YYZ-CAI

Cheers,
Kaz



t.dot photography
User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (10 years 6 months 3 days ago) and read 3447 times:

Martinair, my post was entirely in response to your original "die AC, I want to see SA fly YYZ-JNB so we can spot different airlines" post. If you believe that SA is half the price of AC, then you surely must be mistaken. How can you compare anyways? Do you follow SA's pricing policies? Do both airlines have any routes in which you could easily compare prices? Based on economics, type of passenger, equipment, etc etc etc? No. So you have no means to compare AC's pricing to SA's pricing strategy.

Yegbey01, read above. I am in no way against competition, and am I in no way wanting to leave foreign airlines out of Canada just so that Air Canada can fly routes on their own. I just posted my response suggesting that if I had the choice of one or the other serving the route, I would definitely prefer to see AC, of course if it could be done profitably. It would benefit us more if AC served the route (profitably) than SA. If both can serve the route (answer is likely a no) then that would be even better! Besides, your "competition" theory isn't quite right, since there is good competition between YYZ and LHR (and other nearby airports).



"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineYegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1723 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (10 years 6 months 3 days ago) and read 3436 times:

Airbusfan,

Ever since CP was absorbed by AC, I became an AC flyer. Just got my Aeroplan Elite renewed once again for another year.

But don't you agree that more competition is good for the consumer? I will always prefer AC over any other carrier.



User currently offlineLH477 From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 584 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (10 years 6 months 3 days ago) and read 3406 times:

AC routes from YYZ I can see

YYZ-BOM
YYZ-JNB
YYZ-SHA

Why would AC want to have asian flights from YYZ?
-YYZ is AC's main hub.
-Huge asian population in Toronto
-The current asian routes from yyz make AC make and
the flights are full(NRT, DEL, HKG)






Come on you gunners......!!!!!
User currently offlineRattibone From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 years 6 months 3 days ago) and read 3388 times:

LH477,

AC already flies to Shanghai (AC37 and AC38) via YVR. Are you saying non stop to Shanghai?


User currently offlineAirbusfanYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2002, 1433 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (10 years 6 months 3 days ago) and read 3376 times:

Yegbey01,

I have been AA Advantage Gold, UA Premier, and I am currently an AC Elite flyer. I am not saying that competition is bad, but rather that I would like to see a strong AC.
I would also love to see a lot more carriers start service to YYZ. Toronto is the most diverse city on the planet and can probably support additional routes especially to South Asia, Africa. Hopefully we'll see more once the new terminal's Phase II is complete.

Cheers,
Kaz



t.dot photography
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (10 years 6 months 3 days ago) and read 3367 times:

ACA would need a lot more then 2 340-500's or something along those lines if they were to start up any of these long hauls to asia, or africa. Using the current fleet of -300's would not let AC take advantage of the huge cargo potential. They would be constantly taking payload restrictions in the form of pax or cargo being offloaded. Air Canada needs to get its house in order before it can go off on the network building spree that they proposed back in the early days of the CP merger. I do recall at that time a map the Mr. Milton presented to employees with JNB, MOW, KBP, SYD, BKK, SIN and a number of other destinations listed as in AC's future...fact is that with the current fleet, and the state of the company they cant really afford to launch much of anything right now...


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (10 years 6 months 3 days ago) and read 3340 times:

My question is this. Can AC afford the Airbus A340-500's and 600's, or can they afford to not take these aircraft? Maybe taking delivery of these aircraft, despite their increased costs to the company, will provide Air Canada with strong profit potential. Maybe without these aircraft Air Canada will never reach its true potential, also limiting the effectiveness of its short-haul fleet.


"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineMartinairYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 1209 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (10 years 6 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3295 times:

Here-Here Nu-Nu!

It is like this..... does a hobo keep his $1 to buy food with or does he spend it on a better begging cup?

The food will keep him for oly so long whereas the begging cup will help him get more $$$$$

Think of the hobos! They're like AC is now!



Chelsea Football Club supporter.
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (10 years 6 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3288 times:

If a certain pilot group would agree to work for 340 wages, then they could solve their fleet problems with a bunch of nice new 747-400's but....given what was just announced I don't see ACPA playing with the company on much of anything in the near future...Launching a few new routes with some new and expensive airplanes will not solve AC' financial problems...they need som stability first, then they can start to grow again. Right now I would maintain that they should not grow any more then their current situation allows them to...in other words they should maximize the efficient use of their current fleet, and if a surplus exists then add service and or frequency...but adding a new type to the fleet at high cost is probably not a good idea, expecially if its only going to open up one or two new routes...


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineCanuckpaxguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 6 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3288 times:

Here's my two cents:
I'm hoping to tour South Africa in 2005, and truth be told, I'd fly SAA over AC for several reasons:
-> IFE, far superior on SAA compared to existing AC fleet, which is important on long-haul routes;
-> Would be nice to fly on a 346 (not holding my breath for AC);
-> I'm told that SA F/As are up there with SQ F/As in the 'most attractive' category (which is important when the IFE gets boring);
-> New carriers/destinations often bring great discounts with them to start;
-> Impeccible safety and service reputation;
-> South African accents are among the most beautiful in the world.
(OK, the last one is a stretch).

I've heard many rumours about AC and JNB lately, and I believe there is a market given Toronto's large South African population. I'd like to think I'd be loyal to AC...but I'm sure I'd jump at the SAA ticket.

As for the 345 -- I know that SAA considered them, but opted for the 346 instead. Maybe they'll reconsider and pick up AC's.

G


User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 56
Reply 18, posted (10 years 6 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3253 times:

G, I too would probably fly SA over AC at the same price, just to try something different. My loyalty only goes so far.  Big grin Besides, I truly believe that my individual purchase wont make one difference to the prosperity of an airline anyways, so might as well try something different and perhaps exotic.

Anyways, there's no doubt Slawko, that my little theory would not solve AC's problems, and it would require money ... something AC has very little of. I too would like to see the debt taken care of before any massive expansion. But if it helps them to get rid of some current aircraft and get the new A345/6's, then I'm all for it.

One last thing, the 744's would probably not be suitable for some of the operations they envision due to lack of range. They would likely be less efficient than the current A340-300's. Their great advantage would be to capitalize on profitable long-haul routes with capable aircraft and low acquisition costs.



"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineAlekToronto From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 328 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (10 years 6 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3224 times:

hey guys!
I am kinda surprised abt all the talk and speculation about YYZJNB served on AC. I seriously doubt that this will ever happen. If there was such a enormous demand for South Africa to Canada, then SAA would be flying to Toronto already I am sure. They have a daily 744 (now 346?) that sits all day in SA - New York">JFK before the nightime dep to JNB, they could fly it up to Toronto for lot less cost than AC dedicating a A340 jet to the route.
SA)">NA to South Africa is not an extremely busy route (i have flown SA - New York">JFK and SA - Georgia">ATL to SA and the flights are never full) with the exception of 2 months a year.

I am still waiting for when AC will cancel the Delhi route. AC has a sordid history of starting India and then dumping it after a while quietly when the busy holiday season ends.

YYZHKG is the only route with potential and possibly YYZPEK in the far future. All other Asia will go via Vancouver for sure. DXB - I will not hold my breath!

Apparently AC is doing really well with their Latin Routes - there could be a possibility there to expand GRU, EZE, SCL maybe add LIM, CCS, BOG, etc???
my friend tried to book the EZE direct flight and all the flights were sold out!

cheers!
Alek


User currently offlineCanuckpaxguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 6 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3186 times:

Alek,
SAA does fly to YYZ ... on a codeshare with Delta.
Although I have no concrete data for facts and figures, I'm told by some of my South African friends that their countrymen book their flights through SAA and connect in Atlanta or New York City.

They do this for several reasons, but mostly because South African immigrants often have significant assets back home. Since they cannot legally take their assets out of South Africa (with some exceptions like interest earned on investments, etc) they book their flight on SAA's website in SA rand and pay for the flights from their South African bank accounts & credit cards. (This legislation may have changed recently though).

If you look at SAA's website, you can book a flight to Toronto. SAA just doesn't have a plane that will fly this far, and their largest planes are already full of pax going to Atlanta and J.F.K., so it makes sense to codeshare the last leg.

Again, I can't tell you how many Canadians are on the flights from J.F.K. or Atlanta, but I know that's the route many SA-Canucks go.

G


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (10 years 6 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3130 times:

"It would make a lot more sense to consolidate all flights to Asia from YVR. even if it means flying twice to ICN, TPE and so forth from YVR."

YVR in principle, has a lot of trouble on the domestic/transborder side of things. YVR isnt much of a corporate town, and is very seasonal. In the summer time, AC and other airlines have a significant cruise/tourist travel demand, all of which is relatively low yield. AC has failed on a lot of transborder markets out there, such as PHX/DFW/DEN/LAS and most of their US runs BOS/IAD/MIA are seasonal on a reduced frequency basis.. for this reason, perhaps its best if Air Canada diversifies its Asia routes amongst its two big Asian O&D cities. Furthermore, if AC is going to make a 7th freedom hub as Milty so brilliantly describes it, it needs more connectivity out of YYZ. routes like GRU/SJO/HAV/EZE/etc forget it.

When you check the behavioral patterns of airlines to YVR (transborder mainly for this focus), you see a quick seasonal in and out. Funny how NW goes from 5 flights in the summer to 1 in the winter...

So with this in mind, perhaps AC's wont be getting the best possible bottom line out of its routes, due to network problems in YVR...

YYZ on the other hand, you need all kinds of large equipment for all those routes to work. Im looking at general loads on HKG-YYZ of late (today;s flight is less than half full, same for tommorow), and they really arent that good for AC anyway. CX seems to do a lot better. Even YYZ-NRT is one of those routes that doesnt do so well, and is heavily bulked out in the summer to Japense groups visiting Canada etc. So in this context, I am skeptical also. As for YYZ-JNB.. are you kidding me?

Lastly Martin...if your gonna comment bud, please stop the "We need more for spotters etc." type stuff, I know for sure that your smarter than that  Smile

Mark





User currently offlineYegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1723 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (10 years 6 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3070 times:

Mark,

If AC coordinates its schedules so that the connecting US pax get a relatively short layover at YVR, AC could do well especially if they get a lot of pax from the western states. Forget IAD, BOS and MIA.. I agree they are seasonal and low yield too.

But how do you capitalize on the geographical advantage for YVR. It's an asset that CP utilized a lot more efficiently than AC.

Simply... AC has no clear vision for the future. Let alone new routes out of YYZ



User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (10 years 6 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3048 times:

Well AC's vision in my opinion is over-ambitious.

We hear about how they are going to expand in Asia etc, and then you hear about the aircraft shortages that they face. So as soon as they are out of CCAA, and have accumulated 4 billion worth of debt for the CRj-705/EMB190, they are gonna go and put themselves further in the hole with A345's/A346's and more 744's? Sounds like they are going right back to where they started off, in a pile of debt.

In terms of YVR, again, their network is small and limited to SFO/LAX/JFK/SEA and star alliance runs to DEN/ORD.

Now in terms of AC;s network to Asia out of YVR, is it not already quite mature? I cant see that much more expansion, besides an eventual link to SYD (but with only 2 A345's, is that possible) and BKK (same question)..

Mark


User currently offlineJayce From Canada, joined Nov 1999, 520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 years 6 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3020 times:

I agree that CP used YVR much more effectively than AC ever has. Mind you, AC has always been a primarily eastern Canadian airline, at least in the eyes of those out west. CP had a huge presence out here, and that may be why it worked for them.

I think if AC were willing to try, they could make a killing taking advantage of YVR's location.



"Trying is the first step towards failure" -Homer Simpson
25 FLYYUL : Hey Jayce, True... but if AC is gonna make a killing, its because there is also a strong local demand for the flights. AC cant make a flight work on t
26 Lymanm : CP had a developed and extensive western route network, coupled with a very strong public following to feed their international network. While AC inhe
27 Goose : Lymanm.... I would go as far to state that AC's comparitively "weak" customer following has allowed WestJet to thrive, particularily into Eastern mark
28 Lymanm : WJ thriving in Eastern markets? They serve few of the major ones, notably absent the YOW-YUL-YYZ triangle. Until they show they can compete with AC wh
29 Goose : I didn't state my point clearly, sorry..... I was merely illustrating that WestJet's growth in markets where AC is the entrenched home-town favourite
30 Jayce : True, AC cannot rely solely on transfer pax to justify a route, but look at NW in MSP and DTW. While quite a bit of the traffic is O&D, a substantial
31 FLYYUL : NW at DTW and MSP have like 50-55% O&D rates. Out of YVR, there are only a handful of routes which have over 75,000 origin and destination pax to the
32 Yyz717 : Let's put things in perspective. AC is in bankruptcy protection and still has a strong chance of shutdown and liquidation, a la Sabena or Swissair. Th
33 Yegbey01 : YYZ717, Well said!
34 B747-437B : The only way AC can return to profitability is to continue shrinking to a small profitable core. The days of ambitious intl expansion are over. No air
35 Slawko : I would say that international expansion is where you will see AC focus, and that the days of ambitious domestic domination are over. Cut out the loss
36 Captaingomes : Slawko, I agree to a point ... while they are cutting their domestic operations, they are investing a lot of money into it, in the form of the new air
37 B747-437B : focus on a core domestic product with low fares serving the major centers only, and expanding the international network I don't think AC has a future
38 MartinairYYZ : Lastly Martin...if your gonna comment bud, please stop the "We need more for spotters etc." type stuff, I know for sure that your smarter than that Ok
39 FLYYUL : "I have to disagree with this as if you want to fly LHR-Tokyo, you pass through North America! If the government puts thing uder control, Canada's avi
40 Yegbey01 : I guess the big problem here is the fact that canadian Airports are not equipped to handle transit passengers (who need visas to enter Canada). Can so
41 FLYYUL : yegbey, Not until Canadian inspections services change their way of business, transiting in Canada really is a pain and is redundant all together. Mar
42 Slawko : Nuno, I would argue that the recent order by AC is not to beef up domestic ops, but rather to take greater advantage of Open Skies and entering into s
43 Jayce : I agree that AC should focus on international routes, and let the likes of WestJet and JetsGo battle it out on the domestic front. I don't think they
44 B747-437B : I thought that YVR was able to handle transit pax? I was pretty sure that there was a seperate area that passengers not destined for Canada can wait w
45 Post contains images B747-437B : if you want to fly LHR-Tokyo, you pass through North America Ah of course. How could I have missed that. Also, with the new HKG-YYZ nonstop service it
46 Yyz717 : No airline has ever shrunk its way to profitability. Actually numerous airlines have increased their performance by shrinking, among them AC, BA, US,
47 Captaingomes : Shrinking to profitability is a hard thing to do and can leave a company vulnerable, not being able to take advantage of opportunities when things tur
48 C-GRYK : LOL B747-437B! MartinairYYZ, are you REALLY that dense? Jeremy
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