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Is This CI Pilot Over Doing It?  
User currently offlineN754pr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6085 times:

I'm no pilot so I would like to ask PILOTS what they think.


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All CI planes depart using max thust as I heard that from other pilots, its mainly because they dont trust them to use anything less!!. Just like only the captain of Taiwanese aircraft can taxi it.

So for the above pic does he look too nose high or is it fine?

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCainanUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2002, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5983 times:

I dont know if he is overdoing it as I am not a pilot, but he is certainly hitting it hard!!!


Cainan Cornelius
User currently offlineBMAbound From Sweden, joined Nov 2003, 660 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5914 times:

I don't know where he was going, but if a 747 has a light load + using full thrust, it can be mistaken for a lunar rocket.

johan



Altitude is Insurance - Get Insured
User currently offlineFlykal From Australia, joined Sep 2003, 442 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5816 times:

I usually take no part in these kinds of threads as they serve no purpose and are usually completely inaccurate. However, I want to give you a couple of things to think about regarding both the comments and the pic:

1. Comments such as "its mainly because they dont trust them...", implies racism and the fact that certain cultures are bad pilots. You can get bad pilots in any airline and any country. Moreover, consider the fact that many airlines, such as the airline I work for (KE), as well as many others including China Airlines employ foreign Captains (and some foreign F/O's). This airplane in the picture could be flown by one of them. If the picture was of a UA 744, would people still post the same comments??

2. Probably this aircraft is operating HKG-TPE which is only a 1:35 sector. Same for us when we fly GMP-CJU or PUS-CJU with a 744. They get off the ground and climb very quickly.

3. "Just like only the captain of Taiwanese aircraft can taxi it..." Perhaps true (I don't know), but this applies to many other airlines too, and I consider it to be entirely logical, especially for large aircraft that are difficult to taxi (777-300, 744, A340-600) considering their length and the design of some airports taxiways.


Anyhow, not trying to have a personal swipe at you, but simply inform you of some of the other information which should be considered. As for the picture, no-one can say whether it's nose high or not. Besides, what's really the point, anyhow?

Cheers,
Phil



One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
User currently offlineTrident2e From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5673 times:

Flykal - time to chill out I think. Seems like a little of an over-reaction to what was a perfectly mild post. I think your first reaction was the right one - don't participate in these threads if you don't like them.

User currently offlineLHSebi From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 1049 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5653 times:

The point, Phil, is for us as aviation enthusiasts to get some insight as to why an aircraft as large as the 747 is taking off at such a high AOA. I am sure there were no racist reasons to start this thread, only love/interest in planes. As for the picture itself, I am no pilot, but it does seem insanely high! He must have gotten there relatively quickley too, since his gear is still out. My guess is light load, otherwise I doubt it would be feasable for him to get so high/steep so quickly!

Sebastian



I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
User currently offlineBen From Switzerland, joined Aug 1999, 1391 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5613 times:

Climb attitude (pitch) is set by airspeed.

That means an attitude is flown to maintain a certain calculated airspeed. To fly at that certain airspeed, the pitch will vary according to things like the weight, engine power, aircraft configuration etc..

A lightly loaded airliner at full power just after takeoff will have a very steep climb and high rate of climb.

I know a BBJ pilot who still uses rude words to describe the incredible rate of climb on his aircraft in that situation, and he's been flying them for a good few years.


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12322 posts, RR: 35
Reply 7, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5549 times:

Flykal, no one would ever suggest CAL has bad pilots. If you leave out a few accidents they've had, they have a perfect safety record.

This picture doesn't seem unusual; as BMA bound suggests, if a 747 is lightly loaded, it can take off pretty smartly. A very heavy 747 would climb out at about 12-13 degrees, but a lightly loaded one can manage around 16 degrees.


User currently offlineTheiler From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 633 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5394 times:

Flykal, no one would ever suggest CAL has bad pilots. If you leave out a few accidents they've had, they have a perfect safety record.

Though the taxiway incident in ANC last year somewhat diminishes this record..


User currently offlineDynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1848 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5306 times:


Flykal, no one would ever suggest CAL has bad pilots.


There are many who are very critical of CAL's cockpit crews. N754pr has been one of the more vocal one on the a.net. With CAL's safety record, one must wonder.


If you leave out a few accidents they've had, they have a perfect safety record.


You gotta be kidding. How many should I leave out? They have crashed almost every jet type they have flown, including the 707, 737, 747, MD-11, A300... Find me an airline that has crashed as many jet types as CAL has.

With this said, I think flykal's reaction is not inappropriate. N754pr's post was not as naive as some others might think.


User currently offlineCessna172RG From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 747 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5272 times:

I recently (within the last month) flew on an ANA 747-400D from Haneda to Fukuoka, and that bird used up around 3,000 feet of runway and that was about it. We shot into the sky like a rocket. I can believe (from flying on this flight and watching other 747s from RJFF/FUK) that the 747 can take off, under light loads, at such a high AOA and keep it up for a while... If you are in doubt, book an ANA flight or some kind of domestic flight in Asia on any 747 that is around one hour and a half and you will see...


Save the whales...for dinner!!!
User currently offlineTt737fo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 472 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5060 times:

As for the picture: aggressive appearing angle of attack, but with a good stiff headwind and empty load....it just looks cool.

Onto another issue that's been skirted here:

>>>"Comments such as "its mainly because they dont trust them...", implies racism and the fact that certain cultures are bad pilots. You can get bad pilots in any airline and any country"

Agreed in part. However, I will maintain that certain cultures do, in fact, have a difficult time embracing CRM. (Two relatively recent accidents at KAL fall squarely into that category: Cheju A300 and the 747 on Nimitz Hill in Guam).

Here is a good link to some issues that were uncovered in an audit of KAL in the 1990s--many of these findings apply to several other asian carries...I have witnessed several such things first hand:

http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/aviation/korean_audit.htm



User currently offlineVC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3695 posts, RR: 35
Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4916 times:
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Just like only the captain of Taiwanese aircraft can taxi it

Ever thought that could be because the only tiller is on the Capt's side?


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4799 times:

implies racism and the fact that certain cultures are bad pilots

Um, deal with it...

Yes cockpit culture is taken into higher scrutiny when dealing with East Asian operatiors... particularly KE, and (you guessed it) CI.



no one would ever suggest CAL has bad pilots.

You're *joking*, right?!

If not, then allow me to be the first to suggest! Big grin



If you leave out a few accidents they've had, they have a perfect safety record.

Uh, no offense dude... but this statement makes absolutely no sense at all, particularly concerning this airline!  Nuts

You name it, they've crashed it... or given a valiant effort to do so  Big thumbs up

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User currently offlineRyanair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4683 times:

Many aircraft do steeper climbs than usual when they are lightly loaded.


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Ryanair737


User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12163 posts, RR: 36
Reply 15, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4651 times:
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Concordeboy, they didn't crash the one you have pictured as landing at KaiTak. They had a veeery strong crosswind, and kept the crab in until the very last second. VERY impressive landing indeed.


911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlineRareBear From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 553 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4576 times:

Noise abatement procedures at some airports require the aircraft to climb rapidly to a certain altitude and then resume a more normal climbout attitude. This is sometimes the reason for the incredibly steep AOA on initial climbout. A lightly loaded 757 does this quite well, as well as a 747 in a lightly loaded configuration.


Walt



Illegitimus non carborundum
User currently offline707guy From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4513 times:

Actually - I'm pretty sure that the nose wheel steering tiller is only on the captain's side of the cockpit on just about every airliner that I've heard of.

User currently offlineFlykal From Australia, joined Sep 2003, 442 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4430 times:

707guy, actually the 744 has a tiller on both Captain's and F/O's side. 737 has it only on the Captain's side. As for other aircraft type, haven't flown them so couldn't comment!

Cheers,
Phil



One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
User currently offlineN754pr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4395 times:

707guy,

Please confirm your saying that on all aircraft on the captain can taxi the aircraft!!. Wow, I think the pilots here will have some interesting replies for you.

All,

As for CI, yes they are bad. I would never fly them but that was not the reason for my post. HKG and TPE are very close but other carriers flying the route do not rocket out like CI. You should see their A306's when they go, there are times when after departure you see them pushing the nose down as they are so nose high!!


User currently offlineSepang From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4320 times:

If CI pilot over doing on this:
 Wow!
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/433211/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/501439/M/

then CX pilot under doing on this:
 Laugh out loud
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/433292/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/501434/M/

Sepang Nuts


User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6533 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4143 times:

After takeoff, we climb to acceleration height (Normally 1000ft AGL) at no more than V2+25. If the aircraft continues to accelerate, then we will adjust the pitch attitude to stay within V2+25. If this means pitching up, then we will do so (Within reason!).

As for the tiller, most widebodied airliners have tillers on both sides. It's only smaller jets that tend to have a single tiller. Every type in our fleet has dual tillers, and all CI's widebodies certainly have dual tillers. The fact that FO's cannot taxi is a Taiwanese law and has already indirectly led to the death of a Captain after the FO brought the plane in following the captain's heart attack but was not allowed to vacate the runway. Go figure.


User currently offlineFritzi From United Arab Emirates, joined Jun 2001, 2762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4088 times:

If you leave out a few(!?!?) accidents they've had, they have a perfect safety record.

You could apply this to all airlines aswell, but you cant just "leave out" a crash from their safety record.



User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 7925 posts, RR: 54
Reply 23, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3920 times:

Indeed climb angle is dictated by airspeed, but if the question is, "Is This CI Pilot Over Doing It?" the answer - based on their safety record - is usually a resounding YES.


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineVC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3695 posts, RR: 35
Reply 24, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3730 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I'm pretty sure that the nose wheel steering tiller is only on the captain's side of the cockpit on just about every airliner that I've heard of.

It's normally a customer option, the only A300's I've seen with LH drive only are UPS's.

A320/30/40's have tillers on both sides


25 Post contains links SLCPilot : Do you want pitch attitude on take-off? This is one of my ALL TIME favorite aviation photographs. Please bear in mind it is not a model, but a full sc
26 Post contains links and images Sepang : Maybe Ex-fighter F-16 pilots on CI as well as B-52 on CX : http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/79002/
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