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Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...  
User currently offlineRichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3745 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3497 times:

....oh dear


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3453285.stm

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLBA From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3455 times:

Add < to begining and > at end of address to get a direct link, like this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3453285.stm


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3443 times:

Oh dear, where is my pillow ? Let me blub into it for poor Mr. "Cowboy Airline" O'Leary. FR might be a good airline, but he runs it like Delboy would run a minicab company - very dodgy. Him and his "wheelchair levy" - quick 12 million pounds a year for doing sod-all. Nice work if you can get it.


User currently offlineRichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3745 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3384 times:

Will FR move their planes elsewhere, or will fares to CRL rise?

User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6659 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3348 times:

JG,
you should be grateful of the choice that consumers now have.

Hopefully all public-run airports in the EU will be privatised.


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12400 posts, RR: 37
Reply 5, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 3303 times:

It's a disappointment, but it could have been worse. I do think it was unfair to penalise an airline and airport for developing new services in a peripheral area. However, what's happened has happened. It's not a crippling blow by any means, but it will mean FR has to look at its strategy and, more worryingly, its January load factor, which has slipped to an all time low (since it went low-cost) of 71%.

I don't think people should be anywhere near tying FR's death cert yet; all airlines (as we all know) have bad days. Jan has been a bad month for FR, but it has very low costs, it brings services to peripheral areas, so the future outlook should be good. The EU ruling, while painful, should (a) not be used as a reason for sneering or glee by those who brought the complaint; conversely, it clarifies what assistance can be given and hopefully, that can be used to grow routes and new markets on a much firmer basis.

There are still many, many European markets which need access and FR has a lot of new markets ahead of it.


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 3278 times:

I am profoundly grateful for the choice EU consumers now have - it means I don't have to fly FR to get cheap flights - I couldn't be MORE grateful. But other operators have shown how it is possible to operate a low cost carrier effectively and profitably without the need for underhanded business practises or penny-pinching customer service. "Cheap" is all relative - a flight for 50p is very cheap, but so is a flight for EUR50.00, relatively speaking, and if for my EUR50.00 I get a flight that actually goes somewhere near where I need to get to, and with a company from whom I would recieve more than a snarl if I have any issue with the service I received, I know which to choose.

User currently onlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19186 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 3211 times:

O'Leary is a brilliant businessman - he takes no shit, he does not compromise and he's as tough as nails. He gets his business noticed, which helps it to become a household name. He fights against carriers and airports which charge too much, which draws attention to his business. He has given a 'face' to the airline, like Stelios did with easyJet. That is very commendable indeed.

Other airlines, including the with-frills carriers, could acquire cheap airport fees - or even make the airport pay them for flying to the airport - if they wanted to fly to in-the-middle-of-nowhere locations, but they don't. As such, they won't receive such incentives. FR wants to fly to such airports so it should be allowed to. It's hardly fair to make FR pay virtually the same fees to fly into CRL as BA would to fly into BRU.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineRichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3745 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3127 times:

...who pays more when BA and FR fly to the same airport? such as GOA, TRN, MPL, FR), Portugal">FAO, AGP. I bet they pay the same price.

User currently offlineTrident2e From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3116 times:

Mr O'Leary will be able to repay the amount required by the EU from the cash he's carrying in his wallet! It's nothing more than small change for Ryanair.

User currently offlineRichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3745 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3108 times:

But isn't some of that cash reserved to pay Boeing for the next delivery of aircraft, so not all of it is spare.

When is a discount a subsidy and not just a simple discount? ie money knocked off.


User currently onlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19186 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3097 times:

"who pays more when BA and FR fly to the same airport? such as GOA, TRN, MPL, FR), Portugal">FR), Portugal">FAO, AGP. I bet they pay the same price."

We just don't know, do we?  Wink/being sarcastic



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineTrident2e From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3068 times:

Richardw - apparently Ryanair has more than one billion Euros in cash, so the few million he needs to repay is indeed small change. As for your question when is a discount a subsidy, the answer is when it's not available to all-comers, as in Ryanair's case where it negotiates exclusivity deals.

User currently offlineRichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3745 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3032 times:

How exclusive are the discounts, does the airport have to keep details a secret? or can they offer similar discounts to other airlines?

User currently offlineBobrayner From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2003, 2227 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2949 times:

How exclusive are the discounts, does the airport have to keep details a secret? or can they offer similar discounts to other airlines?

If any airline can collect - and if the bidding process is open - then it shouldn't be illegal.



Cunning linguist
User currently offlineDavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7359 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2918 times:
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Nice "bonuses" thrown in by CRL according to ITV teletext included £350k a year in crew accommodation and £500k a year marketing promotion as well only the €1 passenger handling charge (which teletext claims should be €13).

David


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12400 posts, RR: 37
Reply 16, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2882 times:

I think we need to look at the whole exclusivity thing in context.

First of all, when FR began flying into CRL, it was a back of beyond airport; apart from Sobelair charters and the odd training flight, there wasn't much life to the place. If they were going to get business, they had to take risks. They did; they came up with a package, which HAD to be a good package, to attract a low cost carrier in. FR pushed a hard bargain, but they should have. What else would have been expected of them? FR cuts costs so that these savings are passed onto the customer. It's an investment by CRL and the regional authority in the local economy and one which I think has paid off handsomely. It's also encouraging that the regional government is going to appeal this decision.

It's also fair to point out that it took the ECJ over two years to come to a decision, due to the complexity and confusion about the rules. The next stage will be the appeal; the Irish government, which has expressed support for FR, will do whatever it can to temper the EU's decision and hopefully, it can frustrate and obfuscate as much as possible.

Did FR require the deal to be exclusive? Did they NEED it to be exclusive; if not, then why penalise FR. Even without the 15 year exclusivity deal, will any airline go into CRL in competition with FR? Not likely, I suggest.


User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2851 times:

And when are the subsidies and government ownership of Alitalia and Air France going to end? Is the Czech Republic going to sell off CSA when they enter the EU? I'm sure there are a few more European airlines receiving state assistance.

Let's get government assistance out of all airlines and not single out just one.

[Edited 2004-02-03 20:02:09]

User currently offlineBobrayner From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2003, 2227 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2771 times:

And when are the subsidies and government ownership of Alitalia and Air France going to end? Is the Czech Republic going to sell off CSA when they enter the EU? I'm sure there are a few more European airlines receiving state assistance.

Let's get government assistance out of all airlines and not single out just one.


The EU is strictly against government aid to airlines. Direct aid now is minimal - certainly less than recent aid in the USA - but some countries are trying to retain more subtle forms of aid. This should, and will, end.



Cunning linguist
User currently offlineBoo25 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2767 times:


YES!! glad to see the smile wiped off that little $@!* face at last .  Big thumbs up

Can't stand MOL .

About time all these subsidies were investigated, and an even ground played on.

Billions of €/£/DM/FF etc... have been poured into the coffers of some of these outfits, while others have had to struggle, and some like swiss etc lose out the hardest way  Sad


User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2735 times:

What is everyone's hang up about subsidies? Don't you want F/A's, pilots and ground crew to have jobs? Don't you want to fly to new places?

Subsidies have been part of the aviation scene since it first started. Everyone is doing it and everyone is making from it. Subsidies are great as they stop airlines going bust. All the US airlines have all been saved by subsidies. It is a national embarrassment when an airline goes bust. Look at Sabena or Swissair.

Subsidies to national airlines take many forms and we can presume they are used to bolster budgets and fund route development. Forward buying of premium class seats for diplomats, overpaying for military charters, bonds for emergency use in times of conflict etc.

I'm not a fan of Mr O'Leary but he's done a great job getting vast numbers of people into the air. He did a big diplomatic faux pas by buying Boeing and maybe that's the lesson he's supposed to learn from this.

Just mad thoughts.


User currently offlineBobrayner From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2003, 2227 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2724 times:

Don't you want F/A's, pilots and ground crew to have jobs?

I want them to have jobs if they can earn a living.

The employees who benefit from subsidies are those that wouldn't earn a living otherwise; this is wasteful.

You could reduce unemployment levels to zero by paying half the unemployed people to hammer nails into planks, and paying the other half to pull them out. Would this be a good use of public money? It creates jobs, after all...

Subsidies are great as they stop airlines going bust

In this context they are life-support, pouring taxpayers money into a bottomless pit. The alternative is to let bad enterprises go broke, so good enterprises can take their place. You get better service, and you pay lower taxes.

It is a national embarrassment when an airline goes bust. Look at Sabena or Swissair.

Would it be less embarrassing to spend your taxes keeping a bloated, inefficient business running the same bloated inefficient systems indefinitely?

It's a national embarrassment when other businesses fail, too. Are you advocating that every inept entrepreneur should get government support?

Forward buying of premium class seats for diplomats

This is unlikely to be a major source of revenue for Ryanair.



Cunning linguist
User currently offlineSjoerd From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 361 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2724 times:

In CLR it was about subsidies given to only Ryanair, not about the subsidies themselves. The real Brussels airport (Zaventem, 10 minutes from the city centre) 40 minutes from CLR was suffering from this. Airlines there were not given subsidies, airlines went bankrupt, people lost their jobs because (not only) FR was attracting the passengers with the money of taxpayers in Belgium. Even more, not that many Belgians were employed by Ryanair, with the subsidies they paid Irish personnel. Of course Ryanair being in Charleroi gave the opportunity to indirect jobs, but hardly that many. Why not invest in BRU Zaventem and have one big busy airport instead of two competing airports. There is already enough competition from other larger European carriers. Virgin express proofs that flying low cost from real airports is possible, without receiving subsidies.
Given the fact that the larger airports are much easier to reach and when you pay no taxes (for a round trip you have to include the cost of 4 transfers to and from the airport), I think it's cheaper to fly from a full-service airport with a low cost airline or even a full-service airline. Except if you live next to a regional airport of course ! Many people are fooled by the low fares, but when you do the math (transfers, taxes, airport taxes) it's not even that low cost.

I am happy with the decision, there are enough airports in Europe. We should concentrate on them.



Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6659 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2699 times:

It's an investment by CRL and the regional authority in the local economy and one which I think has paid off handsomely. It's also encouraging that the regional government is going to appeal this decision.

Exactly.The Wolon(sp?)government is not too happy to say the least about the decision.Isn't CRL in the middle of getting a new terminal?


Sjoerd,
your examples are completely disingenuous.

Of course Ryanair being in Charleroi gave the opportunity to indirect jobs, but hardly that many
The contributions of injections of money to the local economy that Ryanair created far exceeded their subsidies/charge breaks,hence why the local government is a little worried about the decision.


Airlines there were not given subsidies, airlines went bankrupt, people lost their jobs because (not only) FR was attracting the passengers with the money of taxpayers in Belgium.
Are you seriously saying this?Sabena was a basket-case it's entire existence.The subsidies given to Ryanair are a piss in the ocean compared to those that Sabena received over its life.To say Ryanair helped to destroy passenger numbers is wrong because
a)those numbers were artifically high to the subsidies to Sabena
b)Ryanair from CRL had very little routes they competed with Sabena on.


Why not invest in BRU Zaventem and have one big busy airport instead of two competing airports. There is already enough competition from other larger European carriers. Virgin express proofs that flying low cost from real airports is possible, without receiving subsidies.
Why is Belgium so averse to competition?The 2 airports also target 2 different market segments.Virgin Express may call itself a low-cost airline but it's CASM is quite a lot higher than the real LCCs ,even Easyjet who fly to major airports as well.




User currently offlineSjoerd From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 361 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2633 times:

Donder 10 :

I never spoke of Sabena, I talked about the post Sabena period. (Delsey and Sobelair went bankrupt, no competition for Ryanair, but why not subsidies them ?) Ryanair is taking passengers from SNBA and Virgin. I am not against subsidies or competition, but it must be fair.



Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
25 GDB : MOL is mouthing off saying this is the end of LCC's in Europe, while the other LCC's say that it will not. He's had it coming.
26 Donder10 : Ryanair is taking passengers from SNBA and Virgin. I am not against subsidies or competition, but it must be fair. What routes do FR compete on with S
27 Post contains images Boo25 : Too right GDB, he's the most contemptuous irksome airline CEO i've ever seen on TV , and now his underhand funding methods have been discovered and re
28 Post contains images AApilot2b : I think Kaitak gave a very fair response to this situation. As far as I understand it, Charleroi (and the surrounding area )benefited greatly from thi
29 LJ : If an airport wants to attract business in to its region by offering a competitive airline benefits, they should be allowed to do that without the EU'
30 Post contains images Bobrayner : Would anybody want to go to Charleroi if flights weren't subsidised?
31 Babybus : Without Ryanair flying into places like Charleroi, Erfurt and the rest they'd be a lot of empty shops and restaurants and people on the dole. These to
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