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Seattle PI: Airbus Vs. Boeing Long Range Jets  
User currently offlineUnited777 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1657 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 6 months 16 hours ago) and read 14537 times:

Okay I don't mean to start a Airbus Vs. Boeing topic but this is a good article about both companies long range jets.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/159226_boeairbus04.html

Farhan Ali
Seattle, USA

125 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAerosol From Germany, joined Oct 2000, 556 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (10 years 6 months 16 hours ago) and read 14352 times:

I think "aviation expert" Michael Boyd has no clue what he is talking about. The 500 is a niche product.

Funny that SIN-LAX is the "return flight".


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (10 years 6 months 16 hours ago) and read 14311 times:

It seems some industry insight is really missing in the article. The A345's time advantage won't help much (as seen with the A342/3), and definitely NO US-B777 operator will ever switch to the A345.

However, interesting quotings on EK's A345/A346 decision.


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (10 years 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 14115 times:

Written by true experts... 'Anyone not operating 777's is either not a global player or Lufthansa...'

How would he call...

Qantas
Air New Zealand
Air India
South African Airways
Iberia
Scandinavian Airlines
Virgin Atlantic
Northwest
Air Canada

????

just to name a few.



SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (10 years 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 14110 times:

"If it works out as Airbus expects, it could be a major chink in Boeing's armor, opening new potential for Airbus to get into the U.S. 747-400 or 777 operators"

They're joking right?

The only USA carrier to even bat an eyebrow at the A340NG has thusfar been AA... and even then, that was nothing but a ruse brought on by its scorn for GE90 exclusivity.  Laugh out loud



from Los Angeles to Singapore, a distance of more than 9,000 miles

say it with me now... F*A*L*S*E!



Airbus isn't standing still, though. It is already developing an extended range A340-600 high-gross-weight version

I still find it incredibly odd that Airbus, the high priestess of propaganda, doesn't advertise/mention/promote this alleged A346HGW at all!  Yeah sure




"Their plane (the 777-200LR) will be a great machine. But they have to address pricing issues."

I can understand this. Boeing, in all actuality though, may not be able to justify large discounts on the 772LR, as it could cannibalize 772ER sales. The latter, unlike the recent state of the A343 and despite last year's poor sales, is a much better seller.

That's why a bare-bones 772LR still lists for more than a fully loaded 772ER!

Airbus doesnt have nearly as much to lose by allowing A340NG sales to somewhat cannibalize borderline A343 sales. Boeing does.

Considering that a detanked 772LR is essentially a super-MTOW 772ER; if Boeing "wanted to", they could offer those at current 772ER pricing while dropping the current premiums on its 772ERs relative to the A343.... too bad the consequence would be not only the nigh elimination of further A343 sales, but any justifiable premium on the 772ER. Bet the shareholders would just love that.

< /end Dynkrisolo moment  Laugh out loud>







[Edited 2004-02-04 19:37:01]

User currently offlineWingnutMN From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 640 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 14043 times:

I agree with Manni! There are tons of world players that don't fly the 777. I think this Boyd guy needs to go back and check some of his facts and data. These statements sound pretty much pro Boeing being that the article is written in a Seatle Newspaper. I know that The Boyd Group is based in Colorado, but do you really think that someone would write a pro Airbus article in Boeings hometown paper??? I think not. I like both Boeing and Airbus the same, just so this doesn't spark any heated A vs B debating.

Wingnut



Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (10 years 6 months 8 hours ago) and read 13943 times:

ConcordeBoy,

Before I say it with you, what's the exact distance between LAX and SIN? Now I'd really like to know...


If you you like it or not, Airbus currently offers the airliner with the longest range ever...no matter what happens in two years. The aircraft is real and it's flying. Why not face it?
Airbus once also had the largest twinjet ever, before the B777 was available. That was a fact es well, no matter what happened later.

Try some green tea with honey, should help you to survive these terrible two years until the B772LR takes off...  Laugh out loud


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 6 months 8 hours ago) and read 13917 times:

Before I say it with you, what's the exact distance between LAX and SIN? Now I'd really like to know...

The distance is 8770mi

The still air distance is over 9000mi, which of course is used to calculate the flight parameters.... but it's not a standard of tangible measure.


Try some green tea with honey, should help you to survive these terrible two years until the B772LR takes off...

...that, and enough Thorazine to stop a charging Elephant  Sleepy  Sleepy


User currently offlineWingnutMN From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 640 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (10 years 6 months 8 hours ago) and read 13911 times:

ConcordeBoy,

The distance between SIN and LAX is over 9000 miles if you do the math in Statute Miles, or just over 8000 miles in Nautical Miles. So in the context of the article, he is correct in stating a range of over 9000 miles

Wingnut



Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
User currently offlineCOncordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 6 months 8 hours ago) and read 13896 times:

The distance between SIN and LAX is over 9000 miles if you do the math in Statute Miles

*Best Johnny Carson voice*

...you are WRONG sir  Laugh out loud


User currently offlineAA787 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 610 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (10 years 6 months 8 hours ago) and read 13865 times:

AA looked at the A340NG???


ET In NYC
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (10 years 6 months 8 hours ago) and read 13835 times:

I love how you always throw out "FALSE" or "WRONG" but you never actually provide any evidence or an argument. Makes me think you have no idea.

SIN-LAX's still air distance is over 9000mi, and that's probably what he was stating.

The Great Circle route is 8770mi, but who knows what route they take.

I still find it incredibly odd that Airbus, the high priestess of propaganda, doesn't advertise/mention/promote this alleged A346HGW at all!  


They announced that Qatar and Emirates both were taking an HGW version.

They don't advertise the 75.5t version of the A319 really either. So what?

Mike Boyd is crazy, and an asshole, but he does occasionally know what he's talking about.

N

[Edited 2004-02-04 20:49:52]

User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 6 months 8 hours ago) and read 13805 times:

AA looked at the A340NG???


Many here are familiar with the enormous temper tantrum AA threw over the GE exclusivity on the 777NGs, but they dont know just how far it went.

In the 2000 Asian Aerospace Show, AA publically issued a RFP to Airbus for the A340.

Some reports suggest an LOI, but I dont believe that's accurate.

Anyways, the RFP expired, just like everyone knew it would. AA has no use whatsoever for A340s; particularly after ETOPS207 became available (AA was the first airline ever to operate under said certification).


User currently offlineWingnutMN From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 640 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 years 6 months 6 hours ago) and read 13682 times:

ConcordeBoy,

I stand corrected! I screwed up with my mathematics. Distance in SM is 8758. Sorry for putting out the faulty info.

Wingnut



Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
User currently offlineDynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1861 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (10 years 6 months 5 hours ago) and read 13598 times:


< /end Dynkrisolo moment >


When did my moment begin?  Laugh out loud

I will pass this round.  Wink/being sarcastic


User currently offlineCOncordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 6 months 5 hours ago) and read 13505 times:

I love how you always throw out "FALSE" or "WRONG" but you never actually provide any evidence or an argument. Makes me think you have no idea.

...precisely, which usually leads you to make some inane comment, so I'll have some entertainment for myself at a later moment  Big grin


I will pass this round.

You wimp!  Laugh out loud


User currently offlineJutes85 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 6 months 5 hours ago) and read 13455 times:

Here is another Airbus VS. Boeing Article:

http://www.airborneaircrafts.com/library_Airbus_Vs._Boeing.htm



User currently offlineCOncordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 6 months 4 hours ago) and read 13413 times:

That article's pretty behind the times...

A335 proposed, marketed, failed already  Laugh out loud


User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2470 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (10 years 6 months 4 hours ago) and read 13364 times:

These passages pretty much sum up Boeing's biggest problem...

"Boeing really has to sort itself out and bring that cost of ownership down for us," Clark said.

The A340-500 has a list price of from $185 million to $189.8 million. The 777-200LR has a list price ranging from $188 million to $213.5 million.

But list prices mean little. Airlines are able to negotiate steep discounts of as much as 30 percent or more from the manufacturers.

Boeing is well aware that it continues to lose important campaigns to Airbus because it can't beat its rival on pricing.

All the advantages that Boeing argues for its 777-200LR over the A340-500, such as lower maintenance costs along with better range and payload capability, are "negated by the cost of ownership," Clark said.

"It was not just price but the whole range of benefits that came with the Airbus package," Clark said, referring to last year's huge order at the Paris Air Show. "We tried our best to persuade Boeing, to make them understand that when your competitor is seducing you with a range of benefits for an order this size, why wouldn't they (Boeing ) do that. But Boeing had to draw a line in the sand. ...

"Their plane (the 777-200LR) will be a great machine. But they have to address pricing issues."

In a nutshell, these statements sum up Boeing's biggest achilles heel. Emirates LOVES the 777 and probably would have continued buying it over the A340NGs were it not for these price sticking points. I don't think Boeing can afford to wait for the 7E7 to address this issue. It needs to do more about its' cost structure NOW-granted I don't know what since they've already slashed their workforce to the bone. Maybe they need to renegotiate labor contracts; getting the word out that without givebacks, BCAG will go down. It would be a royal battle with the unions to get that done but if the business eventually folds, they're all out the door anyway. I don't have any answers to how they could do this with their existing product line but they'd better do something.



User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 6 months 4 hours ago) and read 13297 times:

Qantas
Air New Zealand
Air India
South African Airways
Iberia
Scandinavian Airlines
Virgin Atlantic
Northwest
Air Canada

I wouldn't call any of those major global players except Air Canada and Qantas, major global player to me means British Airways, Air Frane, Lufthansa, Singapore, etc etc. And btw, Qantas is widely expected to order the 777, afterall they helped Boeing design it!

I don't agree at all that the A345 is the biggest threat to Boeing, perhaps it was a misprint and they meant A346?

Also, I agree with the first sentence "The Airbus A380 "whaleJet" does not pose as much of a threat to Boeing as the company's critics say, even though it will supplant Boeing's 747 as the queen of the skies in a couple of years"

Why is the unidentified customer for 777-300ER still there? I thought that was KE and they decided for the 772ER instead? Or is it another new customer?


User currently offlineN743AS From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (10 years 6 months 3 hours ago) and read 13216 times:

Rumor had it that South African Airways was interested in the 777-300ER, that could be the remaining interest. I'm not sure where their current interest stands but I know they wanted an aircraft that could eliminate the need to make the stop in Cape Verde on the way to ATL. I believe Boeing claimed that they could make that happen, but we shall see...


If the airplane is one piece, don't cheat on it...ride the bastard down! -Ernest K. Ghann
User currently onlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2735 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (10 years 6 months 2 hours ago) and read 13113 times:

Whoa! There are a lot of emotions being thrown around on this thread!  Nuts

"I think "aviation expert" Michael Boyd has no clue what he is talking about."

At least you used the preface 'I think. . .' before you made that comment. Otherwise, criticising someone who actually gets paid to analyze the aviation industry would just be silly. . .  Insane


"However, interesting quotings on EK's A345/A346 decision."

Udo, thank you. At least a few people were able to see the real merit of this article.


"Written by true experts... 'Anyone not operating 777's is either not a global player or Lufthansa...'

How would he call...

Qantas
Air New Zealand
Air India
South African Airways
Iberia
Scandinavian Airlines
Virgin Atlantic
Northwest
Air Canada
"

First, that quote is actually a number of years old. I believe it first appeared in the 2001 AW&ST Source Book. I'm not sure why they are rehashing it here, but there's no need to get your. . ., well, I won't finish. As to who you can and cannot call a 'World Player' is entirely subjective. Of the airlines you list, I would only include Qantas, South African, Air Canada, and maybe Northwest. And only two of those operate the A340 [which, if you had known the original quote, is what is being talked about (A340 v. 777)].


"I know that The Boyd Group is based in Colorado, but do you really think that someone would write a pro Airbus article in Boeings hometown paper??? I think not."

Then I would suggest reading The Seattle Times more often. They are often harsher on Boeing than the standard trade magazines. Remember, their market is (ex-)Boeing workers, too, not just the management.


"They announced that Qatar and Emirates both were taking an HGW version."

If I may speak for ConcordeBoy (a dangerous thing to do, I know), I believe he was referring to the lack of info on the plane's specs. This is the first article where a specific range and/or payload increase has been talked about (OTOH, I find +750nm hard to swallow, but we'll see). Normally Airbus is more than willing to promote the specs for its aircraft.


"Rumor had it that South African Airways was interested in the 777-300ER"

SAA looked at the 777 a few years ago (earlier than that, they actually had -200ERs on order, but cancelled them with a change of management). They chose the A340-300/-600 package instead. Of course, with the recent history of SAA's fleet planning decisions, we can all expect a 777 order fairly soon. . .  Laugh out loud


AvObserver,

Interesting thoughts, and I think you (and Udo) have hit the proverbial nail on the head with regard to this article. Something else to consider, too, in regards to Boeing's cost base, is the continuing weakness of the dollar to the euro. . .

Regards,

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineWingnutMN From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 640 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (10 years 6 months 2 hours ago) and read 13060 times:

RJPieces

How could you not consider NW a world player. They have the most extensive Asian market of any American Carrier, and they have a presence, though small on their own, in Europe. They have the original alliance with KLM to solidify their European and African markets. The only place they have no presence is in South and Central America. BUT with their CO alliance, they have a presence in South and Central America on paper. Just my 2 cents.

Wingnut



Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
User currently offlineThrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2688 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (10 years 6 months 2 hours ago) and read 13030 times:

Does Airbus have plans to launch the A347? Or has Airbus done all it can with the Airbus A340? Or has the Airbus A380 eliminated Airbus' need to stretch the A340? This Airbus vs. Boeing issue completely illogical reasoning. Each company is superior to the other at some things, and each company has weaknesses that are strengths for the other. We need both.


Fly one thing; Fly it well
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (10 years 6 months 2 hours ago) and read 13005 times:

I was always under the impression that the price difference between A340s and B777s was much greater than printed in the article. Airbus doesn't release list figures for their aircraft so seeing those #s was interesting.

WingnutMN, without their alliance(s) they would be nothing more than say, US Airways....Their Asian network is very impressive and is the only reason I might consider them a global player.

Back to that article, does anybody see the author's point in that the A345 is the biggest threat to Boeing, because I still don't!!!


25 WingnutMN : I still believe that the A330 is the real threat. More cargo and efficient than the 767, and fits the nitch that the 777 is too big for. All in all, i
26 RJpieces : The A330 is a great threat, it is selling like hot cakes now.......That is why Boeing is developing the 7E7.
27 RayChuang : Interestingly enough, Airbus almost didn't build the A330-200. The only planned A330 model originally was the longer A330-300, which had the range to
28 Manni : Hamlet, I know that the qoute is an old one and has been discussed before on these forums. Back in 2001 you could even add KLM and Alitalia to that li
29 Post contains images Manni : '...and only 2 of those operate the A340...' Yes, you're right. Virgin Atlantic, Iberia, South African Airways, Scandinavian Airlines and Air Canada,
30 KEESJE : Distance between Singapore and LA. Perhaps it is further with a B772LR then with a A350 because of ETOPS restrictions across the Pacific.
31 MidnightMike : United777 Dude, that was pretty interesting, was a good read, thanks for posting it.
32 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : Why is the unidentified customer for 777-300ER still there? I thought that was KE and they decided for the 772ER instead? The unidentified orders are
33 Scbriml : SIN-LAX is completely within ETOPS180; and even if the airline chose not to fly the great circle, the 777NGs' expectant ETOPS240/330 capability will v
34 Post contains images Solnabo : A VERY good article IMO, fair and balanced. "4 engines 4 longhouls" Michael//SE
35 Aerosol : @Hamlet: The Efficacy of dart throwing: is characterized "throwing darts at a financial page will produce a portfolio that can be expected to do as we
36 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : Aren't twin ops over the Himalayas also restricted? yes I thought that was part of AI's reasoning for selecting the A340 ...wanting to get their paws
37 MidnightMike : Was just reading on ATWOnline.com that Singapore Airlines has not been able to install the first class beds on the A340-500 because of weight penalty
38 Airbus340 : Before you people talk against the A345 read this: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/159431_longestflight05.html?searchpagefrom=1&searchdiff=1 Ye
39 Gigneil : Looks like the airplane is NOT flying as advertised, oh well, trouble in paradise. What are you talking about? The airplane has been flying for 3 days
40 MidnightMike : "2" Engine aircraft have been proven to be just as safe as "4" engine aircraft. Maybe should tell the various militaries around the world that their
41 COncordeBoy : Now, if an engine fails of a 777 they must land...Not a very nice thing for a passenger, or for the crew! That's what you may think... but I'd rather
42 Hamlet69 : Manni, "Yes, you're right. Virgin Atlantic, Iberia, South African Airways, Scandinavian Airlines and Air Canada, only 2 indeed!" I would suggest payin
43 Post contains images Solnabo : Theres a lot of hassle about the GE engines on "trouble seven"... AF 772 had to land in Halifax a while ago f.ex. Whatta pitty!! Michael//SE
44 COncordeBoy : When SQ first requested an ultra-long range aircraft, they wanted 200 seats non-stop to LAX Wasnt it actually the request for growth into 200 seats to
45 Udo : And the A vs B war is once more continuing... Btw, ConcordeBoy, your attack against France was really not funny. I tell you try the green tea finally.
46 Post contains images Chrisdigo : COncordeBoy: 3rd world country, like France. Revised you Geography Chris
47 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : I tell you try the green tea finally Not enough kick... ...a few more A340NG orders, and I fear I'll need enough Thorazine to stop a charging elephant
48 Gigneil : Of those airlines, only 2 operate the A340. It's not that hard, honest. They were saying that operate no 777s. N
49 Post contains links Dynkrisolo : Written by true experts... 'Anyone not operating 777's is either not a global player or Lufthansa...' How would he call... Actually, if we go by Air
50 Beeweel15 : I am tired of this Boeing vs Airbus debate. The bottom line is that Boeing has a few good jets but a crappy line up against Airbus. With Airbus I can
51 Planemaker : Hamlet69: SQ has an enhanced Y class on the flight as well as a lounge. It was in their press release.
52 MD-90 : If I'm on a flight that has an engine failure, even if it's a self-contained emergency such as bird ingestion, I want a divert immediately! Unless you
53 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : even if it's a self-contained emergency such as bird ingestion, I want a divert immediately! ....took a while, but finally found something I could 10
54 Post contains images Manni : The top 20 Airlines for RPK aren't all global players. Delta and American can not be be called global players with their sole destination in Asia and
55 Post contains images Dynkrisolo : Can the Skyteam do without Delta? Can Oneworld do without American? What are the entities like Skyteam and Oneworld called? Global alliances, right? O
56 Post contains images Manni : Dynkrisolo, It does not matter what interpretation/explanation you give to a global airline, Mr Boyd statement is crap, and is has been shown in many
57 ConcordeBoy : How many customers has the 777 worldwide? 35 individual customer orders, though some are now merged/related (e.g., JAL & JAS) __________________ Faire
58 Post contains images Dynkrisolo : Mr Boyd statement is crap, and is has been shown in many many previous replys in this topic I have refuted all your points, then it's your assertion
59 Hamlet69 : Concorde Boy, "Wasnt it actually the request for growth into 200 seats to New York (and at that time, Chicago) that was the deal breaker, not LA?" In
60 Post contains links Thales007 : "BTW - I have not seen the stats on the 777 compared to the A330. This would be something I'd be very interested in. My guess would be that they are v
61 Adria : "That's what you may think... but I'd rather land ASAP, be it in HNL or some godawful 3rd world country, like France" That's what YOU may think. If yo
62 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : Won't happen if you fly A340. you're in a dream world m'friend You can fly save to your destination and do not lose hours maybe days On a longhaul, yo
63 Post contains images Adria : Please state some facts instead of making childish comments. The A340 has been selected as the most comfortable aircraft in its class for many times.
64 Post contains images Adria : "From a passenger point of view the A340 is a better choice You have absolutely no method of qualifying nor quantifying that statement" No middle seat
65 Post contains images AvObserver : Adria and ConcordeBoy, I'll reserve judgement on the merits of your respective arguments with regard to cabin quietness and comfort of the A340 vs. th
66 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : No middle seat in business class Only because no airline has yet to do it.... but since some already are going 2x3x2 in biz on the A330s, only a matte
67 N79969 : Manni, Of course American and Delta are far, far important airlines than Air New Zealand or Air India. Flying a few big planes on a few long routes do
68 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : You need to simply accept the fact that B777 has beaten the A340 hands down. It costs more and sells better. What never fails to amuse me, is that tho
69 Post contains images Adria : "Only because no airline has yet to do it.... but since some already are going 2x3x2 in biz on the A330s, only a matter of time before someone does it
70 Manni : N79969, I've never said that the A340 sells better than the 777, I started replying that there are far more airlines than just Lufthansa, that can do
71 Dynkrisolo : Manni: The combined losses of every European airline in 2003 is probaply far less than the sole loss of Delta. You seem to have a tunnel vision. You j
72 Adria : "You go ask Airbus sales see if they would rather selling more airplanes than having more customers. It's the number of airplanes sold that counts the
73 9V-SPF : What never fails to amuse me, is that those who are so quick to laud the A332's superiority over the 764ER (in payload, range, speed, sales, etc)... o
74 N79969 : Manni, I read exactly what you wrote. Don't you think Airbus would love to be Southwest's supplier of airplanes rather than sell 3 or 4 319/320 to 5 o
75 Adria : N79969: I meant the A330-300, A340-200/-300/-500/-600 and all of the 777 series. The A332 isn't a 777 competitor "they are all large 777 operators wit
76 N79969 : Adria, I was wondering if you meant that...thanks for the clarification. In making an example of Asian carriers, I was simply illustrating that Aboula
77 Luisca : someone said earlier that the adquisition costs of the 777 exceded the benefits in capacity and efficiency, but that is not tottally true. even if tha
78 Greaser : Ahh, another tender loving A v B war... What the heck... Wait till you Airbus lovers see the true power of the 777 777-200ER,777-300ER,777-200LR KICKS
79 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : I meant the A330-300, A340-200/-300/-500/-600 and all of the 777 series. The A332 isn't a 777 competitor If you'd actually bothered checking the numbe
80 Manni : N79969, I agree that delta and other American carriers are much larger than the airlines I mentioned as examples of global (route network that covers
81 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : but having more customers, confirms the status of the A330/340 aircraft as the preffered aircraft in it's segment. Methinks someone failed Macro & mar
82 N79969 : "I'ts nicer to sell more aircraft than to have more customers for the manufacturers, but having more customers, confirms the status of the A330/340 ai
83 Post contains images Adria : Concordeboy: Total orders for the A330/A340 family: 816 Total orders for the B777 family: 549 Maybe you should check the numbers. 816>549
84 Post contains images Adria : "Boeing does not discount the 777 too much because it does not feel that it has to in order to sell. I do not believe the opposite is true for the A34
85 N79969 : Adria, The article in the thread starter talks about the 777s high cost of ownership. Going back to earlier discussion, if you combine all 330/340 sal
86 Post contains images Manni : American airlines has no presence in Africa, flies only to NRT in Asia, does not serve any destnations in Oceanie, lacks routes to the Middle East and
87 RJpieces : Adria, ConcordeBoy said that the 777 outsells the A330/A340 when including all models EXCEPT the A332. If you include the A332 you have to include the
88 Adria : You're right. About 100 A332 were ordered so just take 100 away. But it doesn't outsell the A333/A340 as concordeboy stated. It is a false statement w
89 N79969 : Manni, You have no persuasive or emotive effect whatsoever. The bottom line is that AA is a global presence. It has a massive domestic network in the
90 RJpieces : Total 777 Orders-631 Total A340 Orders-347 Total A330 Orders-469 Airbus.com doesn't break down the orders into models but I would guess that over 50%
91 CanadianNorth : Personally I'd say its starting to look like the Boeing 777 series is a slightly better aircraft, but on the other hand Airbus' A340 series of airplan
92 Greaser : Ok now im really pissed...read your aviations books please THE A330 IS NOT A COMPETITOR TO THE 777 THE A330 IS FOR THE 767..WHICH HAS 941 ORDERS.(SOON
93 RJpieces : Greaser, the A330-300 can be considered a 777-200 competitor.......
94 B2707SST : Boeing 777 777-200A: 91 777-200ER: 402 777-200LR: 5 777-300A: 62 777-300ER: 71 Total 777 sales: 631 Airbus (some figures are from Nov/Dec 2003) A330-3
95 Post contains images Dynkrisolo : Manni: I said they are in the toilet at the moment. I didn't say these American carriers are not financially unhealthy. My point is the present financ
96 Adria : B2707SST: where did you get that 631 figure? On Boeing web site it is 549(to dec2003)
97 Thales007 : Adria- It is 631, no doubt, plain and clear on the Boeing site. It is also plain and clear that in a shorter amount of time, the 777 HAS outsold the A
98 Post contains links B2707SST : Here's the Boeing link, broken down by model and airline: http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/displaystandardreport.cfm?cboCurrentModel=&optRep
99 Manni : Dynkrisolo, 103 boards, responsible of aircraft purchase, of different airlines are on the brink of ordering new longhaul aircraft. All of them consid
100 Post contains links Ivo : Hello, numbers, numbers...... Check this independent webside for total orders, production list, etc. http://www.airlinerlist.com Airbus A330 total ord
101 Dynkrisolo : Manni: And where exactely did I point this out as being a reason for not being a global player? In reply 54 you said: Delta and American can not be be
102 Adria : Orders in 2003: A330/340 89( I don't know exactly how many of them are A332) B777 12 So you see a big difference "More than one third of the 330/340 s
103 Post contains links N79969 : Manni, I guess Latin America, Europe, the Carribean, and Japan are not sufficiently global by Belgian standards. There is nothing magical about flying
104 Dynkrisolo : Adria: A330/340 89( I don't know exactly how many of them are A332) B777 12 So you see a big difference As I pointed out before, one year doesn't make
105 Thales007 : A330/340 89( I don't know exactly how many of them are A332) B777 12 Yeah, well, 35 777s were ordered in 1999 and 116 in 2001. So what? Yearly data fl
106 Post contains images Adria : "In 1994, Boeing got no orders for the 777." And in 2003 there were 12 777 orders..........what an improvement "while Boeing wins the 777/A333/A340 ba
107 Thales007 : "And in 2003 there were 12 777 orders..........what an improvement" Even better, 1994 had no orders, in 1995 there were 101. "while Boeing wins the 77
108 Rjpieces : 186 orders for the A333, 283 for the A332. A333,A342,A343,A345 and A346 combined--533 Total 777 orders--631......Facts speak for themselves Adria And
109 ConcordeBoy : some would argue that even the A342 should not be counted against the 777, as its capacity is more in line with the 764ER/A332, and few carriers ever
110 Manni : Dynkrisolo, You're again just assuming things. someone asked if skyteam can do without Delta, I replied that they're in the toilet and that he might s
111 Thales007 : Manni-- It is completely unnecessary for you to have to drag politics and rifts into this. Furthermore, we are talking about business sales here. The
112 Shenzhen : Manni / N79969 Simply put, the 15 largest airlines in the world, buy 80 percent of the of the "new" airplanes (averaged over time). With this in mind,
113 Greaser : OkOk.. let's get this fight over with...(not!) Many factors play in with the sales of a/c... for example...Air India is buying the a340s to please the
114 MD-11 forever : (Irony on) Great post Greaser! (Irony off) "Many factors play in with the sales of a/c... for example...Air India is buying the a340s to please the Fr
115 Greaser : Sorry...i may have made my thread to generalised...besides...i did say the Emirates was basically the only 'airline' not to op. all Airbus is SWISS pr
116 Shenzhen : Hey Greaser... Keep trying, you may get it right one of these times. I would think that there are more airlines in the Mid East that operate a Boeing
117 B737200300 : What's happened to the production of the A318? Is there still flaws with that aircraft?
118 BOEING747400 : There's 772ER & 772LR. But only 773ER and no 773LR. Why's that the case? The competition could get very interesting with the introduction of 773LR!
119 Thales007 : There's 772ER & 772LR. But only 773ER and no 773LR. Why's that the case? Because there's already a 772ER, so the next logical step for an even longer-
120 ConcordeBoy : Actually, the 773 nomenclature is somewhat flawed: The 773 does feature a center fuel tank and should in actuality be called 773ER..... but as the air
121 N79969 : "These 103 boars all have one vote, regardless their buying power. Is it that difficult to understand? Obviously Boeing has been fortunate enough to g
122 Adria : MD-11 forever is absolutely correct. That is why Japan is buying the 747 instead A380 and that is why El Al will always operate Boeings instead of Air
123 N79969 : Since when has China Airlines had a weakness for Boeing? The EU has sent an official letter of complaint to Taiwan because they chose GE engines for t
124 Post contains images Ushermittwoch : Yeah, because the American taxpayer also gave Isreal the land....
125 Planemaker : Boeing insiders are claiming that the 777-200LR, which will roll out in Jan. 2005, will be able to carry 50 more passengers than the A340-500 under Si
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