Yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16525 posts, RR: 54
Reply 2, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9860 times:
The AA buyout was pre-911 when AA was profitable and TW was marginally profitable operationally but overall very unprofitable. Of course, all hell broke lose financially in the industry post-911. I bet AA wishes they had not bought TW. TW would definitely have died on its own in the chaos after 911.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
RJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 9759 times:
At the end their fleet consisted of 717s, MD-80s, 757s, 767s and I think some DC-9s as well.
Yanksn4, at the end TW declared bankruptcy after the deal with AA was ironed out. AA didn't technically buy TWA, they just bought most of their assets.
Bmi330, TWA faced a lot of problems. They had a very high cost structure, very old employees, and never quite adopted to deregulation. They also had this deal where their former CEO Carl Ichan was able to purchase large blocks of TWA tickets for dirt cheap and that put a huge dent in their bottom line. When AA bought TWA and stopped that deal, Ichan protested but lost in the end.
Forgetting 9/11, I believe TWA could have held on a little longer and even reached profitablity if AA had not bought them. At the time of the deal, the TWA CEO Bill Compton saw it as TWA being rescued by a white knight. Being bought by AA avoided them from liquidation and the employees would have secure jobs. Of course the latter turned out to be bull as most of American's post 9/11 layoffs were ex TWA employees.
Another big blow to them was TWA 800. Just like Pan Am, they were doing very well and close to making money and then a major air disaster caused huge problems for them.
There really isn't one reason TWA went under. Towards the end they had excellent leadership and were on a good road, however there were just too many negatives working against them.
Cloud4000 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 657 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 9740 times:
I remember the day AA came to TWA's rescue. I was flying LAS-STL-BOS at the time. I read the local paper, and there on the front cover was a story about TWA and AA coming to an agreement. If TWA went bankrupt, I was afraid I was going to be stuck in St. Louis.
TWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 9684 times:
1) The end fleet consisted of 767's, 757's, 717's, and MD80's. That's it. The DC9's had already been retired.
2) TWA had been in discussions with several airlines for quite awhile about alliances, mergers, acquisitions, etc. It had been clear to TWA senior management for quite awhile that TW's cost structure and route structure were unsustainable for long-term competitiveness. TW had been financially crippled for a decade due to a number of reasons, not the least of which was Carl Icahn's ownership and management of the airline in the late 80's/early 90's, during which he personally pocketed nearly a half billion worth of proceeds from the sale of TW revenue-generating assets (i.e. LHR routes, etc.), and then the subsequent vestige of his ownership after relinquishment in the form of the Karabu agreement, in which he could buy TW tickets at a 45% discount and turn around and sell them.
3) Let it be clear, TW didn't just decide to declare bankruptcy and then AA rushed to their rescue. As I mentioned, TW had been in discussions with several airlines, and had been holding serious, intense discussions with AA. Several proposed airline mergers/tie-ups had already been nixed or were being heavily scrutinized by DOJ as uncompetitive, including NW/CO and US/UA. TW declaring bankruptcy was an idea both airlines mutually agreed upon as a way for AA to essentially buy TW without the DOJ scrutiny a traditional merger would bring. Although at the time the agreement was announced TW had some substantial amounts of debt due in the near term, the airline would have been able to operate without a bankruptcy filing for the foreseeable future... it was breaking even and/or slightly in the black from its operations, and Boeing and its other aircraft lessors were willing to restructure its lease payments. What the coming industry downturn would have done to the airline as a stand-alone entity is another story.
Lhr001 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 9649 times:
TWA was dying for many years before American Airlines came to their rescue and purchased what was left of a once mega airline. TWA (Trans World), had been dying a slow and miserable death since the 1980's when Lorenzo and Ichan began a tug of war for control of the airline... and very possibly even before that. In 1985 TWA had accumulated a debt of $540,000,000.00.... In 1988 the airline became private...The airline had been operating some of the oldest birds in the sky: L1011, 727, 747-100, 747-200.
TWA during the course of the late 1980s'/1990's dropped such lucrative routes as:
*Boston to Los Angeles
*Boston to Paris
*Boston to Rome
*Boston to San Francisco
*Cairo to Bombay
*Frankfurt to Berlin
*Frankfurt to Munich
*Frankfurt to Stuttgart
*Frankfurt to Vienna
*Frankfurt to Zurich
*London to Amsterdam
*London to Boston
*London to Chicago
*London to Frankfurt
*London to Los Angeles
*London to New York
*New York/JFK to Amsterdam
*New York/JFK to Athens
*New York/JFK to Barcelona
*New York/JFK to Brussels
*New York/JFK to Copenhagen
*New York/JFK to Frankfurt
*New York/JFK to Istanbul
*New York/JFK to Lisbon
*New York/JFK to Madrid
*New York/JFK to Milan
*New York/JFK to Munich
*New York/JFK to Rome
*New York/JFK to Stockholm
*New York/JFK to Vienna
*Paris to Athens
*Paris to Cairo
*Paris to Geneva
*Paris to Istanbul
*Paris to Los Angeles
*Paris to Rome
*Paris to Tel Aviv
*Paris to Washington/IAD
*Rome to Athens
*Rome to Cairo
*Rome to Istanbul
*Rome to Vienna
TWA was crippled on the ST. Louis operation from word go.. The airline based its operations out of St. Louis following the merger with Ozark, in doing so TWA pulled back a chunk of its JFK domestic operations as well.
TWA as you may very well recall claimed Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Denver, Kansas City, Los Angeles, Paris, San Francisco, San Juan as Hub or Focus Destinations at one time as well. The airline over the years made very .. very bad business decisions of which included the sale of the London Heathrow operation, the discontinuation of the Paris Charles de Gaulle route system, the reduction of New York/JFK as a hub, and the reduction of Los Angeles as a Focus destination.
In 1996, TWA was dealt a blow so hard it was unimaginabe that the airline could move forward. The explosion and crash of Flight 800 forever changed the future and direction of TWA. The airline was at that very point dealt the same curse as Pan Am with Flight 103... A public unwilling to patronize a dying airline, and an image that could never be recovered...
Look at US Airways and look at TWA... You will see many common ailments in the final days. US Airways, while near flat broke keeps adding more and more routes and destinations to the system... As did TWA with the addition of the San Juan focus city... US Airways is trying to maintain all of its flights while operating with a near empty budget... TWA was trying to maintain as many routes as possible until the very end when American came into play.. US Airways is not facing the reality that the end is near... TWA played the same game up until the very end. TWA went as far as to order the A330, and apply for route authority to Tokyo/Narita...
We are in a very different atmosphere and social climate today. The days of airlines like TWA have passed and they are now making way for such innovative service and airlines as Frontier Airlines, JetBlue, Song, NetJets, PrivatAir, and Air Tran. These airlines who were thought to never last are proving that change is needed and in saying so.... As sad as it may be...The industry has waken up and realized there is only room for the strongest to survive!
Bmi330 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1455 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9556 times:
I now have a new question to add to the discussion you said people were not willing to fly Pan Am after pa103 and TWA after TWA 800 flights were destroyed after terroist attacks will AA and UAL go the same in the next few years follow the pattern of major airlines going belly up after such catastrophes ?
SHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9538 times:
Lhr001-Just a brief question, and slightly off topic...
Did Dave Siegel ever do anything to you?
US Airways is not dead, if they were dead, they'd have me flying on another carrier to LAS this April...
On that note, instead of talking about how US Airways is living on borrowed time (and if they do nothing, they are), why don't you instead discuss what US Airways could do to save the company (which, IMO, is still salvageable)...
On that note, does anybody on this board actually know what US Airways' cash burn was for Q4 2003?
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
L.1011 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 2215 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9520 times:
Not at all. The main reason was that conspiracy and mystery surround both PA103 and TW800. Although we knew what had happened to PA103, we didn't know who did it, so a lot of conspiracy theories rather unflattering to PA came about. TW800 is still an open book, so the same happened. AA11, AA77, UA93, and UA58? had a very obvious fate. No mystery, no conspiracy. It is clear that it wasn't either airline's fault.
Lhr001 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9449 times:
American Airlines and United Airlines were products of terrorist attacks on U.S. territory... Along with those attacks comes a certain sympathy or apathy for the airlines as well.. Consider the fact that American Airlines and United Airlines were both doing relatively fine at the time of Spetember 11th...
Compare those incidents to Pan Am 103, and TWA 800 which both occured at a time for which both airlines were facing identity and monitary issues. The incidents at Pan Am and TWA could not have come at a more horrid time for either airline.
Pilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3176 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9433 times:
TWA was killed by Carl Icahn. TWA didn't quit serving many of the routes earlier mentioned, he sold them off. When the airline went private, as part of the deal to get rid of Icahn they gave him a percentage of tickets on every flight. He sold these at way below profitable levels. It could even be said that Howard Hughes started these bad decisions when he decided to stick with the L-1649 instead of the 707 like Pan Am.
I feel that the airline was making the right moves to return to profitability. They were buying new aircraft, their customer service was becoming renowned for being one of the best, and they had some incredible people working hard, and making tons of sacrifices to keep it going. I live near STL, and worked in an area where many of the residents were TWA employees and they all loved that company.
I think the final two death blows were these: The drastic jump in fuel prices and the 717. I say the 717 simply because they had to take less than ideal financing to get them due to the years of bad managment and the poor credit rating that insues. It was either this, or stick with having the reputation of having one of the oldest fleets in the industry. They took a chance. The reason that AA got rid of them was because the mortgage was high. Sadly, the airline wasn't going to be able to turn around
TWA also had some A320s on order to replace the older MD-80s in the fleet.
Don't flame me on this part, it's been discussed before. While it is clear that they wouldn't last long, it is sad to see what AA has done to STL and the employees of TWA. I honestly wonder what would have happened if they made it to 9-11 and were able to get some of the bailout money from the government that other airlines have recieved. Oh well, we will never know.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9379 times:
Ok let me ask......TW had factory delivered B717s. When AA bought out TW, what was the reason for AA to phase out the B717s after the merger? I heard a rumor somewhere that AA felt that it wasnt financially sound to operate the 717 and have the F-100 at the same time so they decided to retain the F-100 and phase out the 717. Is this true?
And why didnt AA allow TW to retain its name and its history? Now all of TW aircraft are now in AA colors. I remember reading that AA was going to allow TW to continue flying independantly but will monitor ops.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
Startvalve From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9356 times:
Noooo the DC-9s had not all been retired.
On Sept 8 of 2001 I flew SAT-STL-DAY.
I was on MD-80 from SAT-STL and a DC-9-30 from STL-DAY that was so old it still had tiny overheads and ovens up front for actual hot meals.
Two weeks earlier i went out from day on a 717 N422TW. Coolest thing, going out the ticket jacket said TWA. Coming back it said TWA: An American Airlines Company. I still have everything I could grab that said TWA or mentioned something about the merger.
Do not turn this into another 717 thread. They were great but AA could not make money with them since TWA had lousy credit the rates were miserable. you can still spot the TWA airplanes, they have swirl marks from the paint being removed, the tail numbers end in TW and the MD-80s I have been on since the paint changed all have a sticker by the door that says "Operated by TWA" . I do wonder if they still use the TWA callsign or if they are all American?
Pilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3176 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9331 times:
They all use AA callsigns. The only reason they are still on the TWA operating certificate is legal. All procedures are also AA procedures. The tail numbers of TW's airplanes weren't all "TW" Some had Z as the last letter, those were Ozark aircraft. I think that there are still a couple Ozark MD-80s in the AA fleet.
Texan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4324 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9252 times:
TWA operated DC9s to 15 cities from STL after AA purchased their assets (from 5 Sep 2001): CID, DSM, DTW, FSD, IAD, IND, LNK, MCI, MKE, MLI, MSP, ORF, PIT, RIC, YYZ.
While Icahn ruled TWA, not a single new airplane was purchased. He had a deal inked with Airbus Industrie to purcahse brand spanking new A330s. However, he reneged on the deal, forcing TWA to pay a sizeable cancellation fee. Icahn buys companies for their assets and then slowly kills the acquired company by selling off the most lucrative assets. When Icahn originally bought TWA, they had a good amount of money in the bank. Even after the merger with Ozark, which Icahn rammed down everybody's throats, especially the Ozark pilots, TWA still had pretty good liquidity. Icahn refused to reinvest money in TWA, though. All the money TWA made he siphoned off to other areas. He viewed TWA as more of a nuisance than anything else, and they ended up paying for it down the road.
Once Icahn was gone, TWA was still losing money to him. He was allotted a given percentage of seats on pretty much every TWA flight. He sold these seats at way below market value, and TWA did not see a penny from these sales. Some of their flights had up to 60% of the passengers flying on tickets purchased through Icahn. This is what ended up killing them.
TWA's bankruptcies and Icahn's mismanagement had clearly eroded TWA's credit rating. Therefore, even after Icahn left it was hard to secure new planes, and those planes that were acquired had extraordinarily high lease rates. That is the main reason the 717s are parked in the desert. When AA acquired the 717s they could not or did not want to renegotiate lease terms to levels that they deemed acceptable.
Technically, TWA still has not officially "died." The last flight of a TWA, LLC plane will be in July of this year. But, yes, for all intents and purposes TWA was gone on the day they declared bankruptcty for the third time.
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
The777Man From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 6832 posts, RR: 54
Reply 20, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9212 times:
I thought TWA LLC was gone as of 31Dec03 ? I have recently seen more and more ex-TW M80s flying for AA without the TWA sticker near the nosegear. Also the former TW fleetnumber is gone leaving it with the AA fleenumber only. The ex-TW M80s doesn't have the S80 sicker at the nose but I guess that's going to on the AA M80s as has the black nose.
Need a Boeing 777 Firing Order....Further to fly....LX and LH 777s
TrnsWrld From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1194 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9174 times:
All TW 767 and 717 aircraft never flew with AA. TWA continues to operate TWA MD-80 and 757 aircraft and they all still have the exact same registration when they were with TWA. As mentioned the majority are N***TW. The 757's are easy to locate as they have very different PW engines, and TW's configuration has an extra exit just aft of the wings which also has an extra lavatory. Much nicer IMO.
AA717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9167 times:
I still fly for TWA Airlines, LLC. The operating certificate will be retired sometime this year. Right now, we use a mix of TWA and AA proceedures in the cockpit. The FAA wouldn't let us go to the full set of AA proceedures because we didn't have the flip checklist installed(one more reason to be heads down in the cockpit ).
AA now has taken 14 or 15 of the 757's, none of the 767's(at least they aren't operating them), none of the 717's(why operate a 100 seat plane when you own a bunch of 87 seaters?) and probably 60 or 70 or the MD 80's(another 28 are at Roswell getting ready to be pulled from the desert).
Roughly 2,000 of the 20,000 employees remain. Only 400 pilots of 2300 are there and none of the FA's remain.
I finished my last training event with TWA yesterday and will be furloughed on March 1.
The three greatest contributions to TWA's demise are Carl Icahn, Carl Icahn, Management prior to Carl Icahn. Honorable mention goes to the IAM.
It was a great ride and I wouldn't trade a minute of it! Party on! TC