717fan From Switzerland, joined Nov 2001, 2017 posts, RR: 7 Posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8793 times:
I know I have asked this several times and it doesn't looks very good for the 717at all, but I am still hoping and searching for good news for the 717....
There are still some possible orders/customers left....
Thanks
FlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 15 Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8634 times:
ANA is correct on 161 orders to dates. Per Boeing's website, 36 have yet to be filled. While I'm a big supporter of the 717 program, Boeing will need more orders this year otherwise the 717 will become a lame duck. I believe LGB is building 2 a month now. AirTran, Midwest & Pembroke have more coming. Regards.
PS...wait until Greg see this post. I'm sure he'll have something negative to say.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
Greg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8551 times:
Nothing negative..just realistic.
Star wants nothing to do with it...it's only saviour could likely be NW or the likelihood that three or four other carriers would want 30 frames each--not hardly! Northwest is not keen that they purchasd the 753 only to have the line discountinued. Boeing needs about 2 planes a month to break even on operations...and another 90-120 total for the programme to break even. Of course, if they come out with another derivative model...that goes out the window.
With the EMB190 rolling out...and the FD928 comitted for a go-ahead....I don't think there is much of a chance...
Boeing is not run for enthusiasts. It's run for the shareholders.
Gr8slvrflt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1583 posts, RR: 16 Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8450 times:
Oh, c'mon, Greg. Wouldn't it be neat-o to see the 717 in some really cool new colors?
Greg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8426 times:
I'm all for it if they can market it without spending another $100M! NW and AA 'should' have been strong contenders. There is always the possibility that it may still happen yet....as the economy improves. But most airlines don't need any replacement capacity until 2006 earliest. I'm not sure it can hold on till them.
I think BCAC has been offering some real sweetheart deals...but I think there will be at least one more dilligent attempt to get the programme jumpstarted before they discontinue. Other than being overweight for a regional..it's a reliable (if not a bit archaic) aircraft.
MacDac 'gave' 15 MD80's to AA to check 'em out...they ultimatley purchased hundreds of them. They did the same for TW. I'd think they could do the same for NW....just to see what happens....
Lindy field From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 3072 posts, RR: 15 Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8365 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD DATABASE EDITOR
You'll probably see the 717 in some cool new colors when some of the 161 ordered to date wind up in the fleets of second and third-rate airlines in the southern hemisphere. I'd guess relatively soon since it's likely that the current operators of the 717 won't want to be flying a lame-duck aircraft for too long.
Regis From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8271 times:
You'll probably see the 717 in some cool new colors when some of the 161 ordered to date wind up in the fleets of second and third-rate airlines in the southern hemisphere. I'd guess relatively soon since it's likely that the current operators of the 717 won't want to be flying a lame-duck aircraft for too long.
Neither will we want to use your lame-duck aircraft. Keep your crap to yourself. We ain't garbage bins down here.
ConcordeBOAC From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 71 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8223 times:
Regis:
He has a point, don't think that statement was aimed at ALL countries below the equator, more poor African nations and the like, Brazil is not a "third-rate" country just as Australia isn't, think more Etheopia etc.
Lindy field From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 3072 posts, RR: 15 Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8140 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD DATABASE EDITOR
Hey Regis,
You took my statement the wrong way, but I can understand how it might have come across as offensive. Just to make myself clear, there are plenty of first-rate airlines in the southern hemisphere that buy factory-new or relatively young second-hand aircraft and offer excellent service to their passengers. But you have to admit that there are also plenty of airlines of that fly odd-ball fleets of older, second-hand aircraft. They'll probably fly 717s some day because they'll be cheap to acquire and a good value.
Col From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2040 posts, RR: 22 Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8123 times:
I believe the production line is running at 1 per month. If they can make money at this level, then the 717 may be around a little longer - Air Tran and Midwest may want top ups. Biggest problem will be those aircraft being returned over the next 12 to 24 months - Qantas and Olympic (3 aircraft taken out now). Bangkok Air may require more, along with possibilities in Spain. 2006 may see the end or resurgence!?!?
Greg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 7985 times:
Single airframe/month is a losing proposition. Their original estimate was 1.5. Now it is 2/month to cover production cost and make a minimal contribution to development cost. The program still needs 90 airframes to break even (although this seems to be an elusive number to actually calculate even by Boeing).
Planemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 5481 posts, RR: 34 Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7714 times:
I wouldn't get too excited about future 717 lease deals to Midwest - they are not on the most solid footing. And Airtran wants to increase the number of longer routes they fly, hence the 73G. The 717's limited range cramps their plans and scheduling flexibility (for a relatively small fleet.)
Greg:
The FD928 has not been given the go ahead. Last weeks AWST had an article on FD and D'Long is not only looking for risk sharing partners for the 728 but is ALSO looking for a financial partner. Your enthusiam for D'Long/FD's chances of actually delivering an aircraft are admirable but, considering the considerable hurdles that they still have to overcome, they are not realistic.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
Thrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2673 posts, RR: 11 Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7651 times:
The 717 would have sold even better if TWA were still in business. They had over 100 orders for that aircraft. This forced the cancellation of many 717 orders. On the other hand, maybe some airlines got more experience with the ex-TWA 717s are sold. Does anyone know if N411TW is flying with another airline yet? In July 2003, it was seen departing Boeing field without titles but in the TWA livery.
Greg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7606 times:
I read that article and the German Financial Times as well.
The 728 has been given the go ahead....subcontractors are being chosen now.
The 928 will be officially launched prior to the 728 going into service---so on that account--you are right.
D'long does not really need any financial partners for this venture if none are found (unlikely). They can delivery with internally generated funds if they choose. Also, expect some very decent loans from Germany to help fund the manufacturing.
I see you are with an aircraft manufacturer.....no doubt your pessimism is because you see FD as competition...
Optimistic?...You bet. It's a class aircraft. I'll try not to let my enthusiasm become too partial....
Planemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 5481 posts, RR: 34 Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7445 times:
I agree with you that the 728 is potentially a good aircraft. My pessimism is due to seeing first hand what it takes to get an aircraft certified. It will take longer and cost more than they say. And, if it does get certified, I believe that it will be too late to garner any substantial orders.
Given the fact that Germany is trying to tighten spending, as they are over the allowable EU limit for their budget deficit, the govenment will be very hard pressed to make any substatial manufacturing contribution to what is a risky venture (where they previously already lost a very large sum of money). Furthermore, if the 728 does make it into production, who will finance sales... (it is the biggest obstacle to aircraft sales.) However, politics being politics, I do not rule out government participation. But even if they do "help out", I don't think the amounts will be enough.
With regards to D'Long's funds, there is no independent source that can verify their financial staus (at least none that I am aware of). They might have billions, or they might not... but it does raise my suspicion that they even mention that they are looking for a financial partner. If the deal is so good, and they have the cash, why look for a partner?
I am suspicious of any "positive" statement issued by a manufacturer - I have witnessed firsthand how they can lie through their teeth to look good, or mislead the competition. On the otherhand, I've seen aviation journalists make up "facts", and when confronted with the truth fail to print a retraction.
Even if they get the first prototype flying, I still feel that the odds are much less than 50% that D'Long/FD will be able to deliver an aircraft, let alone make any return on their investment. It is still a long road from first flight to certification, especially since they have had development and production interrupted for over 1.5 years.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
CanadianNorth From Canada, joined Aug 2002, 3371 posts, RR: 10 Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7381 times:
With aircraft like the CRJ line and the new Embraers eating away at the lower end of the market, and the Next Generation 737s and the A320 series eating away at the upper end of the market, I unfortunatly dont see much of a future for the 717. Its a nice airliner, but it seems most airlines can get more possibilitys, profit and/or commonality out of some of the other lines around.
Applepie81 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 68 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7140 times:
Personally I think the 717 program is going to get some big orders rolling in soon.
Most people say the 717 won't achieve anything because it's all about having fleet commonality these days ie. CRJ-200/CRJ-900 or A318/A321. But just take a look at all those DC-9's and MD-87's out there, doesn't it make sense to replace these with a 717.
MD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8418 posts, RR: 13 Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7091 times:
Having a good, efficient design is only one aspect of the purchase. Support is very important as well. The 717's real competitor is Embraer's 190 and 195. Embraer has proven that they can support their products, and Boeing of course knows how to do it extremely well. I'm not that optimistic about the 728 or 928.
25 Col: Greg. 2003 Boeing delivered 12 717's. 11 to Midwest and 1 to Airtran. Production seems to be running at one per month unless they have them prepared a
26 Planemaker: Greg: I don't think that you can draw a parallel between Boeing being third to market and D'Long/FD being third to market - as you know, there are hug
27 Greg: Actually, I'll respectfully disagree on some points. You don't need the same staff...just the same specs and drawings. Being very familiar with naval
28 DAL12: Planemaker: That was an excellent post, and unfortunately, I share your skepticism on the 728/928's chances for survival. This is a program that has t
29 Yyz717: There remain outstanding orders for 717's by 4 airlines: AirTran, Midwest, Bangkok Airways, Turkmenistan Airways. I've read the same rumours about Qan
30 Planemaker: Greg: Yes it can be done, and has been done but not on time and never on budget. Ship building and aircraft building are quite different from a qualit
31 DAL12: Ship building and aircraft building are quite different from a quality assurance point of view. That's a big understatement -- I work for a boat manu
32 BoingGoingGone: My very reliable inside source at Northwest Airlines told me that NW will announce orders for 500 717s next week to replace their DC-9s That's the scu
33 AirframeAS: The 717 program is still alive?? Im surprised! If NW ACTUALLY orders the 717 then I'll be even more surprised! But I dont think it will happen, NW wil
34 Greg: I admit the complexity is different, but the QA is basically the same...particularly on chemical and VLCC's...their liability in the even of an accide
35 Beltwaybandit: From what I hear, Embraer is going to own the 90-150 seat market for a while. The Boeing / Airbus shrink jobs don't work, Bombardier has no platform,
36 Planemaker: Greg: "but the QA is basically the same" Shipbuilding QA is not the same. In aircraft manufacturing every assembly/part/component, sub-assembly/sub-pa
37 Greg: Planemaker...thank you for another intelligent post. Again, we will be disagreeing. Building parcel chemical tankers or an cruiseship is very much atu
38 Tu154m: The MD-95 is DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LET IT REST(or let's have another discussion on NW DC-9s!!!!!!) S
39 Planemaker: Greg: Perhaps the title of this thread should be changed to "Any news from the 728?" The only shipbuilding I have been exposed to is at a yard in Germ
40 B4real: Startvalve and BoingGoingGone: Are you serious, or is this some unwinked sarcasim that needs to be deciphered? b4real
41 SXFAN: Good news for all the 717 fans!!! OA will start operating its fleet of three 717s by this Saturday. Those aircrafts were under storage for more than t
42 Planemaker: B4real: NWA's total fleet is only about 430 aircraft. And they have about 165 DC-9's. So, a 717 order by NWA for 250 firm and 250 option is a joke.
43 B4real: Planemaker Okay, I should have caught that just based on the math. I feel like I don't deserve the measely RRating=2 that I have now!
44 DAL12: Greg: Building parcel chemical tankers or an cruiseship is very much atune to building an aircraft, in fact, many of the engineers I have talked to wo
45 BoingGoingGone: No joke. And the 250 Firm/250 Option would involve DL and CO. Just stating the scuttlebutt.
46 Planemaker: BoingGoingGone: I just had to assume that you were joking because the scuttlebutt makes no sense at all, if you think about it. Every airline in the i
47 BoingGoingGone: Shared domestic routes in the SkyTeam program on routes to big for RJs. It would replace DC-9's, MD-80's and MD-90's. If they do it it's to streamline
48 Yyz717: Why would CO and DL especially, go out now and buy a new type for their fleet? CO has an aging fleet of 733/735/M80 aircraft. DL has an aging fleet of
49 Greg: DAL12... I'm not talking about a pleasure vessel. I'm talking about a $200M chemical tanker or a $250M cruise ship. And yes, I feel the complexity is
50 BigB: If they do it it's to streamline service levels and efficiencies (Shared crews/maintenance). Chances of shared crews/maintenance of occurring within N
51 Planemaker: "CO has an aging fleet of 733/735/M80 aircraft. DL has an aging fleet of 732/733 aircraft." Apart from the 732's and 735's, the 717 isn't in the same
52 Yyz717: The majority of DL 732/733 and CO 733/735/M80 flights are within the range of the 717.
53 Flying-Tiger: An interesting topic, basically comes down to the complexities of aircraft manufacuring vs ship building. As I have seen both aircraft manufacturing a
54 Planemaker: "The majority of DL 732/733 and CO 733/735/M80 flights are within the range of the 717." And so are Airtrans but they went with 737's. That is not the
55 Yyz717: airlines are not going to add another type to their fleet AND reduce scheduling flexiblity when they are all attempting to rationalize their fleets. Y
56 Planemaker: "Yes and no. Existing fleets continue to age and will need replacing in due course with new types. This automatically puts the 717 in the running." No
57 BoingGoingGone: The 717 is not too small. Most 733/735/DC-9/MD-80/90 flights take off with a 55-65% LF. This is why the proliferation of RJ's is so vast. There is a g
58 Yyz717: And again, why would DL and CO not only increase their costs, but limit their schedule flexibility as well by going with the 717? Wth the quantity dis
59 BoingGoingGone: Air Tran going for the 73G was not an issue of capacity or a desire to change types. It was simply a range issue.
60 Planemaker: Yyz717: "Existing fleets continue to age and will need replacing in due course with new types. This automatically puts the 717 in the running." You do
61 Yyz717: u do not replace a fleet of 733/128 seats, MD-80/142 seats, and MD-90/150 seats (with longer range and larger cargo capactity) with the 717/106 seats.
62 Planemaker: Yyz717: "Examples include BA (repl 741/742 with the smaller 772, 752 with the smaller 319/320), US Shuttle (repl the 722 with smaller 319), Delta Shut
63 Yyz717: you haven't posted any solid reason why CO and Delta would swap out their single aisle fleet for 106 seat, range limited 717's instead of for another
64 Planemaker: You know that Boeing will not increase the 717 range as they have continually stated. Again, that is why Air Tran went with the 73G. But... even if Bo
65 BoingGoingGone: Boeing has not the time or resources to make the changes to the 717, they are too busy with the 7E7. That's not to say someone else wouldn't fill that
66 717fan: I don't think that the development of the 7E7 has somthing to do with the 717. These are 2 different teams. Boeing is also studying the 737-900X. It w
67 AlitaliaMD11: Hey i didnt read all the posts actully none of them but i was wondering does anyone no what is going on with the Hawaiin 717s? are they all gone? havn
68 Yyz717: i was wondering does anyone no what is going on with the Hawaiin 717s?? 2 of their 13 were returned to the lessors due to lessened intra-island demand
69 Rjpieces: Is it possible that Boeing could change the 717 line to building a military aircraft and then reopen it in 6 years to cater to a superlarge order from
70 Solnabo: It´s supposed to be MD-95, but everyone use the Boeing-term 717.. Sad, very sad...*sigh* Michael//SE
71 AvObserver: Another less than swift comment from you, Michael. Why would Boeing use the old MD-95 designation coined under McDonnell-Douglas when they're now sell
72 Midway2airtran: Planemaker, "So, even if Boeing gave CO/DL a large discount it would have a negligible impact compared to the increased costs due to increased CASM AN
73 717fan: Are DL, CO and NW planning a joint purchase of 100 seaters or did I missunderstand something? What a boost to the one who will get this order!!
74 BigB: Are DL, CO and NW planning a joint purchase of 100 seaters or did I missunderstand something? What a boost to the one who will get this order!! No And
75 Planemaker: Midway2airtran: "What numbers justifies a higher CASM for a B717 compared to the older, not as advanced fleets?" 1) The MD-90 has IAE V2500 turbofans
76 BoingGoingGone: Are DL, CO and NW planning a joint purchase of 100 seaters or did I missunderstand something? If this was to take place it would have happened last we
77 Planemaker: Latest news. There is still some hope from the Star Alliance... article indicates that 717 is still in the running: Star RJ order still planned, but n
78 Ruscoe: The sad thing in all this is that the 717 is so much more comfortable for passengers than the RJ's. Ruscoe
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