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Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR  
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13744 posts, RR: 19
Posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6029 times:

A very interesting and heated article from the wonderful Seattle PI

----
Aerospace Notebook: Jet rivalry spurs high-flying trash talk

By JAMES WALLACE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

Archrivals Airbus and The Boeing Co. are no strangers to the art of trash talking.

Boeing has not been at all shy about bad-mouthing the capabilities of the A380, the Airbus superjumbo that in 2006 will supplant Boeing's 747 as the world's biggest commercial jetliner.

And last year, an Airbus executive wasted no time, during a speech in Seattle, trashing Boeing's planned 7E7 Dreamliner. Adam Brown, vice president of marketing for Airbus, displayed chart after chart showing why the Boeing plane, not available until 2008, would be no better than the A330-200, the Airbus jet that is already in service and winning order battles at Boeing's expense.

So it should come as no surprise that Boeing would take aim at the A340-500, the world's longest-range jetliner. The Airbus plane got a ton of attention last week when Singapore Airlines began operating the jet on the longest non-stop commercial jetliner route ever -- more than 18 hours from Los Angeles to Singapore.

----

Much more at http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/160121_air11.html




Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN754pr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5952 times:

OK, lets say I'm a airline CEO and have taken all this in and now I want to order 10 772LR for for my new airline starting in JAN 05'.

Can you have the planes for me Boeing? ........... NO!!



User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4794 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5920 times:

Even if u ordered 10 new A 345s, they wouldnt be ready for 2-3 years and there arent even 10 in the market at the current time for u to even lease out so your arguement when it comes to immediate availability bears no fruit unless u plan to start operations by 2008-09!!!

User currently offlineN754pr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5891 times:

I'm SURE you can get A345's before the first 772LR is available.

User currently offlineAirxLiban From Lebanon, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 4513 posts, RR: 53
Reply 4, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5778 times:

it didnt really get that much publicity. It hasn't even been a number 1 picture on airliners.net. Just today it was a lowly #2...and not even on the first day!

we'll see what happens with the A380 and 7E7.

in my opinion...it is about time for a revolution in the commercial aviation industry.

we really haven't had a major major major event in subsonic commercial travel since the jet engine was introduced. we have had major technological advances and increases in range, efficiency, comfort, etc etc but we haven't improved on speed (other than concorde). Instead of concentrating on making super jumbos, i think that airbus and boeing should concentrate on making supersonic transportation available at a cost the airlines can swallow.

not that this is any small feat of course. i doubt that i could do it.

dont even know why i said all that.

goodnight all



PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
User currently offlineIvo From Belgium, joined Sep 2000, 470 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5766 times:

Behramjee,

You can start with 2 Air Canada A340-500 !!!


Ivo


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12192 posts, RR: 18
Reply 6, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5724 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

N754pr

If you ordered 10 new A345s would you be able to afford to buy them yourself? If you could then you would be able to have them when ur new airline starts flying, but if you can't afford to buy them yourself then you would have to lease them and are there any leasing companys that have ordered any A345s that would let you lease them when you start operations?


User currently offlineMD-11 forever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5716 times:

Interesting statement from the article:

"Tim Clark, president of Emirates, said in a recent interview that the A340-500 has exceeded his expectations."

Long way to go Boeing........

Cheers, Thomas


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8165 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5702 times:

You're actually right on Airx. Development in aviation has become absolutely boring. There's a lot of talk, little willingness to take action. Instead, the powers that be would rather sit around and quibble over minor performance differences. Does the 777LR beat out the A345? Of course - but is it really that significant? No. In the end we're talking about a few thousand pounds of fuel, a couple hundred nautical miles here or there and a .02 difference in mach number. Wow....

Get off your asses Airbus and Boeing - it's time to take things to the next stage already. Give us improvements in the interim like the 747 Advanced and A380 - but seriously. Enough of this 18 hours across the ocean bullshit - we can and should be doing much better. Figure it out.




If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineTsv From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 1641 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5663 times:

"You can start with 2 Air Canada A340-500 !!!"

I thought they were going to Emirates?



"I told you I was ill ..." Spike Milligan
User currently offlineFA4UA From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 812 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5653 times:

I think one hurdle Boeing will face, besides all the bad ink from Airbus, is only offering the 772LR with just the GE engines. As much as I'd like to see UA replace all our 744's someday with the 772LR, I know it's doubtful since there is only the GE option for the engines.

FA4UA



The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6660 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5650 times:

Does the 777LR beat out the A345? Of course - but is it really that significant? No. In the end we're talking about a few thousand pounds of fuel, a couple hundred nautical miles here or there and a .02 difference in mach number. Wow....

But given that commercial aviation has such waifer thin margins it can make a big difference!


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5599 times:

Who would start a nonstop SYD-LHR for just 57 passengers per flight? What a dumb argumentation...well done Boeing, new score A vs B in terms of blabla: 12:12. Who's scoring next?

That propaganda makes me  Yawn


Regards
Udo




User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5561 times:

I think the GE exclusivity for the B777 is quite the same as the RR exclusivity for the A340-500/600. No advantage for either model here.
At the end, airlines will have to leave their old engine ties. JAL and ANA already have switched (as old PW fans), Lufthansa has (old GE friend), Emirates has (old RR fans).


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8165 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5431 times:

ANA has operated GEs since choosing the CF6-50 on the 742 in the 70s. They operate GEs on the 762, 763, 744 and 744D. They only went PW on the 777s.

JAL, on the other hand, is a PW loyalist and didn't see GEs in service until the 773.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5377 times:

Aaron,

I know ANA has GE on most of its fleet, but I was referring to the B777 which all Japanese airlines (including JAS) once ordered with PW.

I must correct you with JAL. First of all their regular (non-ER) B773 is eqipped with PW engines, the B772ER was their first GE-powered B777. And their whole B744 fleet is eqipped with GE (since 1990), so is the new B763ER.


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5246 times:

Here is a thought. 7E7 stretch, with 250 passengers (3 class) is advertised as a 8300 nautical mile airplane. Can that make the singapore lax run?

I


User currently offlineOsteogenesis From Germany, joined May 2003, 647 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5244 times:

And Airbus did it first that gives them a huge advantage. Boeing has no argument against this. And it shows that Airbus is reacting quicker. And in business many times this is what makes the difference.

User currently offlineToBEYwithMEA From Lebanon, joined Feb 2004, 304 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5136 times:

Boeing is a classic aircraft maker since the 40's.
I respect boeing, But I'm an Airbus fan. I know that airbus is new and fresh and does not have the kind of history as boeing.
BUt all airbus jets have come with a boom and with Huge orders. All have made a mark in the world, like boeing's
Its dumb to insult the A345 because it has capabilites that no boeing Aircraft has
To me Airbus beats boeing. With or Without the A340-500
toBEYwithMEAon_aA345



MEA FLYING HIGH AND RETURING TO IT FORMER GLORY!
User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5069 times:

Hey ToBeywithMEA...

Is Airbus Christian or Muslem? LOL


User currently offlineCol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2116 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4912 times:

Stupid, Stupid. This is exactly why Boeing go themselves into trouble before with their we know better then anyone mind set. Rob Faye needs to put down his Boeing made charts and listen to SQ and Emirates. You do not bad mouth a product which two of your best customers are using successfully, you just look like an idiot and that looks bad on your company. Thought Boeing were becoming smarter obviously NOT.

User currently offlineDynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1866 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4882 times:

N754pr:


OK, lets say I'm a airline CEO and have taken all this in and now I want to order 10 772LR for for my new airline starting in JAN 05'.

Can you have the planes for me Boeing? ........... NO!!


So, you must think waiting an extra one or two years is a big deal for many airlines, right? If that's true, wouldn't you think the MD-11 should have been the front runner instead of being number 3 in the three-horse race against the 330/340 and 777?


User currently offline9V-SVC From Singapore, joined Oct 2001, 1797 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4871 times:

Both Airbus345 and B772LR are fine aircrafts. Without compeitition, we might not even see better products. I am glad that Airbus and Boeing are rivals, hope to see more great products from both of them.


Airliners is the wings of my life.
User currently offlineBoeing nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4814 times:

I think the GE exclusivity for the B777 is quite the same as the RR exclusivity for the A340-500/600. No advantage for either model here.

I believe this is incorrect. I don't believe Airbus offers the A345/6 with only RR engines. I think it's because so far, it's been the only type ordered.

As far as the rivalry goes, hang on people, it's gonna be a fun ride!  Laugh out loud

I am an airliner fan. I don't care who makes them. I may not be a fan of the company that makes them, but the machines are awesome. I'm still amazed that something so big can not only get off the ground, but can stay there for nearly an entire calendar day!!!!!!  Wow!

Regards


User currently offlineEg777er From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 1837 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4785 times:

Engine Exclusivity: there is a subtle difference. Boeing's agreement with GE means that Boeing is not allowed to accept another engine manufacturer on the 772LR.

In comparison, there happens to be only one engine for the A345/6, the RR. But there is no "exclusivity" agreement. If GE or PW wanted to provide an engine for the A345/6, they could do so. It is their choice, not Airbus' or RR's, that they have not done so.


25 Udo : Exclusivity by contract or not, fact is that no engine manufacturer except RR offers an engine for the A340-500/600. If one airline addresses PW or GE
26 Col : Airbus actually made a smart move by offering the most favored engine for the long range airlines in RR. I have heard that only GE could produce the e
27 Dynkrisolo : My understanding is there was an exclusivity agreement between Airbus and Rolls but it was limited to a relatively short period of time. It still woul
28 Post contains images Solnabo : "4 engines 4 long houls" Nuf said Michael//SE
29 DarkBlue : GE is the sole provider for the A340-200/300, but the -500 and -600 are much heavier and required over 50k of thrust. This is too high for the CFM, bu
30 DarkBlue : GE could produce the engine for the 773ER/772LR, but I am sure RR and PW have capabilities to produce an engine in that thrust catagory That's the poi
31 DIA : Read these good parts of the article, then get off your Airbus soapbox: "We are not trying to cheat Airbus," Rob Faye, Boeing's regional director of p
32 ToBEYwithMEA : Shenzhen, what does that mean?? And before you comment on me check your spelling. Does anyone really trust a 2 engine jet on a 18 hour flight?? toBEYw
33 DIA : "Does anyone really trust a 2 engine jet on a 18 hour flight??" Not this again. . .
34 Post contains images Osteogenesis : DIA, I thought this part is the best. It just proves that Boeing is not telling the true. Faye's charts raised questions as to how many passengers sho
35 Post contains images DIA : Yes, I understand. . .I was just trying to level-up the critical views here. . .which is why I mentioned: "Fact is, whether you are an Airbus fan, or
36 Dionysus : Bashing statements are garbage. I rather beleive what the customers say....great job Boeing for contradicting with two of your most important customer
37 Gigneil : I have heard that only GE could produce the engine for the 773ER/772LR, but I am sure RR and PW have capabilities to produce an engine in that thrust
38 AC345 : A lot of trash talking and chest thumping worthy of the Jerry Springer show. Build the damn 772LR first and make sure it performs as well as or better
39 ConcordeBoy : Just to correct a common misconception... the 772LR is actually available for as early as next July, should an airline choose to take delivery as earl
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