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The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife  
User currently offlineLga1011 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 67 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 55028 times:

I have just read the book Terror at Tenerife and I'm wondering if anybody knows any other books about that crash?

170 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTriJetFan1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1128 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 54575 times:
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I saw a documentery on that crash, it seemed almost impossible that two crews made two different errors at the same time that lead to the collision.


Earned PPL June 26, 2007
User currently offlineJano From Slovakia, joined Jan 2004, 827 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 54522 times:

The crash is mentioned in Air Disasters Volume 1; pages 164-181;
by Macarthur Job



The Widget Air Line :)
User currently offlineJeffrey1970 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1336 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 54467 times:

I could never understand why since the ATC could not even see the airplanes, if I am correct, why they did not order a ground halt. I hope someone can clear that up for me.

God bless through Jesus,

Jeff



God bless through Jesus, Jeff
User currently offlineLHR340 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2003, 877 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 54442 times:

Jeffrey, the airport was covered in a blanket of fog, and TFN didn't have any ground tracking systems, and ofcourse the aircraft didn't have TCAS.

LHR340



A340 LoVeR! EC-GQK - LHR The Bussiest International Airport & 3rd Bussiest In The World!
User currently offlineMD11LuxuryLinr From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1385 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 54435 times:

..." it seemed almost impossible that two crews made two different errors at the same time that lead to the collision."...

I thought the cause of the accident was placed solely on the pilot of the KLM 747?.. He initiated the takeoff without clearance, and even with a disagreeing co pilot..



Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
User currently offlineTriJetFan1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1128 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 54393 times:
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The Pan Am 747 missed their runway exit.


Earned PPL June 26, 2007
User currently offlineElectraBob From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 931 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 54371 times:

It is just amazing that the two aircraft involved in this horrible disaster were not even supposed to be at Tenerife. Both were headed to Las Palmas and had to divert to Tenerife due to a bomb exloding in the Las Palmas terminal.


Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.....
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 8, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 54238 times:

I thought the cause of the accident was placed solely on the pilot of the KLM 747?.. He initiated the takeoff without clearance, and even with a disagreeing co pilot..

No, only Spanish ATC did that.
Investigators found that both crews has misinterpreted ATC statements and their charts.

The controller gave the KLM crew permission to enter the runway "you are cleared runway XXX" which at their homebase (and pretty much everywhere at the time) meant "you are cleared for takeoff" in a thick Spanish accent.
ATC meant "cleared to line up and wait" but never said that.
At the same time, PanAm had missed a taxiway turnoff in the fog without reporting this to ATC, leading ATC to think PanAm was clear of the runway and on a taxiway.

Investigators also found on examining the tower audio tapes that a television had been running at high volume in the tower, the controllers had been watching a soccer game instead of controlling traffic!

When KLM spotted PanAm it was too late. They pulled up steeply at just over stall speed, their main gear hit PanAm's tail, and they crashed on top of PanAm.

As a result of this crash, ATC reporting procedures were enhanced greatly with readbacks and less ambiguous vocabulary to prevent any misunderstandings in the future.

In the end, effectively noone was cleared or blamed.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineGEEDO From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 54146 times:

Captain Van Zantan of the KLM flight was also overly anxious to get underway after already being delayed by the poor weather.


I've got Titanic hopes and they aren't sinking
User currently offlineFuffla From Australia, joined Feb 2004, 401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 54085 times:

I just got Airline Disasters Volume 1, and now am well informed, shocking crash, is it the most deaths in a commercial aviation crash?

User currently offlinePropjock04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 54087 times:

The KLM crew had the added pressure to make sure they got to their destination within their duty time. If they had delayed much longer they would have busted their duty period, which at the time in The Netherlands, was a punishable/criminal offense. They could have been fired and possibly thrown in jail.

Michael


User currently offlineBd1959 From Australia, joined Oct 2002, 450 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 54048 times:



Jwenting: When KLM spotted PanAm it was too late. They pulled up steeply at just over stall speed, their main gear hit PanAm's tail, and they crashed on top of PanAm.

Haven't got the Air Disaster account in front of me but I thought the KLM gear struck the upper deck of the PA747, right where the FE sat.

BD1959


User currently offlineFlykal From Australia, joined Sep 2003, 442 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 54040 times:

At the same time, PanAm had missed a taxiway turnoff in the fog without reporting this to ATC, leading ATC to think PanAm was clear of the runway and on a taxiway.

Not entirely accurate according to the CVR transcript. It was true that there was some confusion over which taxiway that the PanAm aircraft should exit via. This was compounded by the fact that ATC did not specify which taxiway to exit via, but simply just counted the numbers (one, two three). Furthermore ATC stated: :

"...Clipper 7136 report leaving the runway"

Clipper 7136 in fact never did report leaving the runway and in fact reported to ATC that they were still taxing down the runway when they heard the KLM flight accepting an ATC clearance for a takeoff clearance.


The controller gave the KLM crew permission to enter the runway "you are cleared runway XXX" which at their homebase (and pretty much everywhere at the time) meant "you are cleared for takeoff" in a thick Spanish accent.
ATC meant "cleared to line up and wait" but never said that.


True, but the CVR also recorded that ATC stated:
"Stand by for takeoff, I will call you"...but unfortunately that transmission was not heard properly as two aircraft attempted to transmit at the same time.

Like any accident, many people and organizations can learn a great deal from this terrible tragedy.

Regards,
Phil

[Edited 2004-02-17 08:38:34]


One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
User currently offlineFlykal From Australia, joined Sep 2003, 442 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 53986 times:

Not sure if this will work, but here's a copy of the CVR transcript. Clearly shows what's happening and the communication failure between KLM, ATC and PanAm.

Read it and make your own decisions!  Smile


CVR transcript KLM Flight 4805 and Pan Am Flight 1736 collision - 27 MAR 1977
Cockpit voice recorder transcription of the 27 March 1977 KLM, Pan Am Boeing 747 collision Tenerife. Source: ICAO Circular 153-AN/56

Legend:
APP = Tenerife tower
RDO-2 = Pan Am Radio communications (co-pilot)
CAM-1 = Cockpit Area Mike PanAm (captain)
CAM-2 = Cockpit Area Mike PanAm (co-pilot)
CAM-3 = Cockpit Area Mike PanAm (flight engineer)
KLM = KLM Radio Communications
KLM-1 = KLM Cockpit Area Mike (captain)
KLM-2 = KLM Cockpit Area Mike (co-pilot)
KLM-3 = KLM Cockpit Area Mike (flight engineer)

Time: Source: Content:
1701:57.0 RDO-2 Tenerife the Clipper one seven three six. (1702:00.2)
1702:01.8 APP Clipper one seven three six Tenerife.
1702:03.6 RDO-2 Ah- We were instructed to contact you and also to taxi down the runway, is that correct? (1702:07.4)
1702:08.4 APP Affirmative, taxi into the runway and -ah leave the runway third, third to your left, (background conversation in the tower).
1702:16.4 RDO-2 Third to the left, O.K. (17:02.18.3)
1702:18.4 CAM-3 Third he said.
CAM-? Three.
1702:20.6 APP -ird one to your left.
1702:21.9 CAM-1 I think he said first.
1702:26.4 CAM-2 I'll ask him again.
CAM-? * * *
1702:32.2 CAM-2 Left turn.
1702:33.1 CAM-1 I don't think they have take-off minimums anywhere right now.
1702:39.2 CAM-1 What really happened over there today?
1702:41.6 CAM-4 They put a bomb (in) the terminal, Sir, right where the check-in counters are.
1702:46.6 CAM-1 Well we asked them if we could hold and -uh- I guess you got the word, we landed here **
CAM-? * * *
1702:49.8 APP KLMfour eight zero five how many taxiway -ah- did you pass?
1702:55.6 KLM I think we just passed charlie four now.
1702:59.9 APP O.K. ... at the end of the runway make one eighty and report -ah- ready -ah- for ATC clearance (background conversation in the tower).
1703:09.3 CAM-2 The first one is a ninety degree turn.
1703:11.0 CAM-1 Yeah, O.K.
1703:12.1 CAM-2 Must be the third ... I'll ask him again.
1703:14.2 CAM-1 O.K.
1703:16.6 CAM-1 We could probably go in it's ah ...
1703:19.1 CAM-1 You gotta make a ninety degree turn.
1703:21.6 CAM-1 Yeah, uh.
1703:21.6 CAM-2 Ninety degree turn to get around this ... this one down here it's a forty five.
1703:29.3 RDO-2 Would you confirm that you want the clipper one seven three six to turn left at the third intersection? (1703:35.4).
1703:35.1 CAM-1 One, two.
1703:36.4 APP The third one, sir, one; two, three, third, third one (1703:38.3)..
1703:38.3 CAM-? One two (four).
1703:39.0 CAM-1 Good.
1703:40.1 CAM-1 That's what we need right, the third one.
1703:42.9 CAM-3 Uno, dos, tres.
1703:44.0 CAM-1 Uno, dos, tres.
1703:44.9 CAM-3 Tres - uh - si.
1703:46.5 CAM-1 Right.
1703:47.6 CAM-3 We'll make it yet.
1703:47.6 APP ...er seven one three six report leaving the runway.
1703:49.1 CAM-2 Wing flaps?
1703:50.2 CAM-1 Ten, indicate ten, leading edge lights are green.
1703:54.1 CAM-? Get that.
1703:55.0 RDO-2 Clipper one seven three six (1703:56.4)
1703:56.5 CAM-2 Yaw damp and instrument?
1703:58.6 CAM-1 Ah- Bob we'll get a left one *
1703:59.3 CAM-2 I got a left.
1704:00.6 CAM-1 Did you?
1704.00.9 CAM-2 And -ah- need a right.
1704:02.6 CAM-1 I'll give you a little *
1704:03.8 CAM-2 Put a little aileron in this thing.
1704:05.0 CAM-1 O.K., here's a left and I'll give you a right one right here.
1704:09.7 CAM-1 O.K. right turn right and left yaw.
1704:11.4 CAM-2 Left yaw checks.
1704:12.4 CAM-1 O.K., here's the rudders.
1704:13.6 CAM-1 Here's two left, centre, two right centre.
1704:17.8 CAM-2 Checks.
1704:19.2 CAM-2 Controls.
1704:19.6 CAM-1 Haven't seen any yet!
1704:20.3 CAM-2 I haven't either.
1704:21. 7 CAM-1 They're free, the indicators are checked.
1704:24.6 CAM-2 There's one.
1704:25.8 CAM-1 There's one.
1704:26.4 CAM-1 That's the ninety degree.
1704:28.5 CAM-? O.K.
1704:34.5 CAM-? ***
CAM-2 Weight and balance finals?
1704:37.7 CAM (Sounds similar to stabilizer trim).(1704:44.8)
1704:37.2 CAM-1 We were gonna put that on four and a half
1704:39.8 CAM-3 We got four and a half and we weigh five thirty four (sound of stabilizer trim).
1704:44.6 CAM-2 Four and a half on the right.
1704:46.8 CAM-2 Engineer's taxi check.
1704:48.4 CAM-3 Taxi check is complete.
1704:50.5 CAM-2 Take-off and departure briefing?
1704:52.1 CAM-1 O.K., it'll be standard, we gonna go straight out there till we get thirty five hundred feet then we're gonna make that reversal and go back' out to * fourteen.
1704:58.2 APP -m eight seven zero five and clipper one seven ... three six, for your information, the centre line lighting is out of service. (APP transmission is readable but slightly broken.)
1705:05.8 KLM I copied that.
1705:07.7 RDO-2 Clipper one seven three six.
1705:09.6 CAM-1 We got centre line markings (* only) (could be "don't we) they count the same thing as ... we need eight hundred metres if you don't have that centre line... I read that on the back (of this) just a while ago.
1705:22.0 CAM-1 That's two.
1705:23.5 CAM-3 Yeh, that's forty-five there.
1705:25.7 CAM-1 Yeh.
1705:26.5 CAM-2 That's this one right here.
1705:27.2 CAM-1 (Yeh)I know.
1705:28.1 CAM-3 O.K.
1705:28.5 CAM-3 Next one is almost a forty-five, huh yeh.
1705:30.6 CAM-1 But it goes...
1705:32.4 CAM-1 Yeh, but it goes ... ahead, I think (it's) gonna put us on (the) taxiway.
1705:35.9 CAM-3 Yeah, just a little bit yeh.
1705:39.8 CAM-? O.K., for sure.
1705:40.0 CAM-2 Maybe he, maybe he counts these (are) three.
CAM-? Huh.
1705:44.8 CAM-? I like this.
1705:44.8 KLM Uh, the KLM ... four eight zero five is now ready for take-off ... uh and we're waiting for our ATC clearance.
1705:53.4 APP KLM eight seven * zero five uh you are cleared to the Papa Beacon climb to and maintain flight level nine zero right turn after take-off proceed with heading zero four zero until intercepting the three two five radial from Las Palmas VOR. (1706:08.2)
1706:09.6 KLM Ah roger, sir, we're cleared to the Papa Beacon flight level nine zero, right turn out zero four zero until intercepting the three two five and we're now (at take-off). (1706:17.9)
ca. 1706:13 KLM-1 We gaan. (We're going)
1706:18.19 APP OK.
1706:19.3 RDO No .. eh.
1706:20.08 APP Stand by for take-off, I will call you.
1706:20.3 RDO And we're still taxiing down the runway, the clipper one seven three six.
1706:19.39 - 1706:23.19 RDO and APP communications caused a shrill noise in KLM cockpit - messages not heard by KLM crew.
1706:25.6 APP Roger alpha one seven three six report when runway clear
1706:29.6 RDO OK, we'll report when we're clear.
APP Thank you
1706:32.43 KLM-3 Is hij er niet af dan? {Is he not clear then?}
1706:34.1 KLM-1 Wat zeg je? {What do you say?}
1706:34.15 KLM-? Yup.
1706:34.7 KLM-3 Is hij er niet af, die Pan American? {Is he not clear that Pan American?}
1706:35.7 KLM-1 Jawel. {Oh yes. - emphatic}
1706:40 PanAm captain sees landinglights of KLM Boeing at approx. 700m
1706:44 PH-BUF started rotation
1706:47.44 KLM-1 [Scream]
1706:50 collision



One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
User currently offlineFlykal From Australia, joined Sep 2003, 442 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 53906 times:

One more thing to add...

Here's a picture (albeit not a great one) of Tenerife for those who may not be familiar with the airport layout. Shows also the confusion over taxiways that the crew experienced.



Regards,
Phil



One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
User currently offlineQantasguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 53815 times:

Fuffla, Other than 9.11, I think you're right, the most deaths in a single airline crash. As for some other resources, try: Air Disasters by Mike Sharpe ISBN 1-84044-026-0 pp 52 and 53. Great photo there. Also try: Air Disasters by Leo Marriott. ISBN 0-7607-1876-8 pp 42 thru 53. Good deep account. Happy flying y"all.


Airplanes Flown on..B-727-100, B-727-200, DC-9, F-27, B-707, B-717, B-737, B-747SP, B-747-100, B-747-200, B-747-300, B74
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 53775 times:

The Tenerife disaster is the worst as far as deaths in one incident(With 2 AC). The USA's worst single crash was AA DC-10 at O'Hare.

User currently offlineIBERIA747 From Spain, joined Aug 2003, 1831 posts, RR: 58
Reply 18, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 53693 times:

"The controller gave the KLM crew permission to enter the runway "you are cleared runway XXX" which at their homebase (and pretty much everywhere at the time) meant "you are cleared for takeoff" in a thick Spanish accent."

If that was true and instructions meant that at their homebase, then why did the co-pilot question the pilot´s decision??

There are some facts here that need to be mentioned:
First of all, Pan Am crew didn´t miss the exit due to the fog...Capt. Victor Grubbs decided not to take the exit that was assigned by ATC because it meant two consecutive 135º (or so) turns, the first to the left and the second to the right, and since the taxiways were too narrow to properly handle a B747, the risk of running out of the surface (because of the sharp turns) and getting stuck in the grass/mud was too high...so he decided to mantain the aircraft on the main runway untill an appropriate exit was found.

There´s another thing: when capt. Van Zanten saw the Pan Am aircraft, he tried desperately to take off, to the point of having a tremendous tailstrike...yes, PH-BUF had a tailstrike while trying to get airborne, and when it finally did it hit Pan Am a/c (with it´s belly and landing gear) on the upper part of the middle/rear section.

After collision, the KLM 747 (transformed into a horrendous ball of fire) remained airborne for about 300 meters before crashing on the runway, dropping debris during it´s short flight and leaving a big mark of it´s tailstrike on the runway surface. People that were seating on the front section of Pan Am´s Clipper Victor were the ones who survived to this fatal crash, including the flight crew.



¡¡VIVA ESPAÑA!!
User currently offlineBrianhames From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 795 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 53634 times:

The Tenerife disaster is the worst as far as deaths in one incident(With 2 AC). The USA's worst single crash was AA DC-10 at O'Hare.

Correct, the worst involving a single aircraft was the JAL 747 where the rear pressure bulkhead exploded and crashed in the mountain face.

Brian


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 53570 times:

Brian,

Hard to believe two people survived that crash, the pilots did all they could to get her back to the airport. Sad. Also note that the bulkhead failed because of an inproper repair. Whoever did the repair was lazy and didn't use the right amount of rivets or only did a single row instead of two. What a shame those poor people didn't have to die.

R.I.P


User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8453 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 53514 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Slightly off the Tenerife topic but I heard that the person responsible for the JAL bulkhead repair committed suicide after the cause of the accident was revealed, not sure if this is true.


After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently offlineFlyingColours From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2315 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 53487 times:

NIKV69 - 4 people survived the JAL123 accident, according to their statments many survived the impact but did not make it through the night on the top of the mountain as help did not come until the morning - they figured nobody could have survived.

One thing with the Tenerife is that the PA 747 was ready to begin taxi but was blocked in by the KL 747, so they had to wait for the KL to get refuelled and then move itself. Had that not blocked it in this would not have happened, of course there are more links in the chain.

I also thought a few people made it out of the midsection of Clipper Victor. Wasn't the heroic man who went back inside seated in there?

Phil
FlyingColours



Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 53465 times:

Actually I heard that individual did commit suicide. If this is true I would have more respect for him. He was solely to blame and he probably new better. I know I would have trouble living with that.

User currently offlineTokolosh From Netherlands, joined Sep 2001, 366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 53417 times:

As with many accidents, the Tenerife tragedy was a combination of factors. I think it is wrong to apportion blame on one particular individual or circumstance. ATC, the KLM captain, the PanAm captain, they all made mistakes at that fateful moment, plus the weather was lousy, many large planes had been diverted to Tenerife because of the bomb and the airport was basically overwhelmed.

Last year it was 25 years ago. Let's hope something like this doesn't happen again.



Did the chicken or the egg get laid first?
25 NIKV69 : Sorry but the KLM pilot was to blame, absolutely and without question. He abandoned all good judgment and threw safety right out the window and went a
26 ACEregular : "those people paid the price" NIKV69, none of those people deserved to die, that is a truly disturbing remark.
27 FlyingColours : I don't think he meant it like the way you are reading it, I think he meant that 'Those people payed the high price because of something he did' - not
28 NIKV69 : You mis-understand ACE, look at my earlier post, much like the people on the JAL 747 didn't deserve to die at the hands of an improper repair, these p
29 Tokolosh : NIKV69, Sorry, but I have to differ with you on this. ATC staff watching a football match on TV is compliant with safety procedures?! The PanAm 747 wa
30 Post contains images Oerk : Read the transcripts, the Pan Am pilots never report being clear of the runway. *************** 1706:25.6 APP Roger alpha one seven three six report w
31 Shenzhen : """"NIKV69 Hard to believe two people survived that crash, the pilots did all they could to get her back to the airport. Sad. Also note that the bulk
32 NotSoFrqntFlr : is there any websites where one can find more info on that accident?
33 Trekster : I have just read the book "Black Box", and it is interesting to see that the PAN AM wanted to circle around the closed airport rather than divert, but
34 Post contains links Flykal : NotSoFrqntFlr, if you're looking for more detailed info on this one, I'd suggest starting at: http://aviation-safety.net/specials/tenerife/spanish-1.h
35 Cedarjet : Funny how some of our Dutch friends can't accept that the mistake was solely with the KLM captain. An ATC clearance is NOT a take off clearance. The P
36 Dexter : It all comes down to this really: 1706:20.08 APP Stand by for take-off, I will call you. 1706:20.3 RDO And we're still taxiing down the runway, the cl
37 Leej : Just something to consider..... The Pan Am skipper is being accused of not reporting clear of the runway. How could he when he never did clear the run
38 Esajh : A lot of people are missing some things here and maybe it is important to point it out. There is always a series of factors that cause an accident. It
39 NotSoFrqntFlr : Flykal, thanks for info. Cheers Filip
40 AirKas1 : "Funny how some of our Dutch friends can't accept that the mistake was solely with the KLM captain." That's because the problem WASN'T solely the faul
41 Na : Fact is, without the hurried KLM captain the worst crash ever would never have happened. HE was in a hurry, HE didn´t make sure everything was ok. He
42 Post contains images Flykal : No problem NotSoFrqntFl, always happy to point people in the right direction to research the facts for themselves. And that's something that I have RE
43 FlyingColours : The Pan Am 747 was to report clear of the runway, they never reported clear because they never left the runway. The PA 747 proceeded past thier turn o
44 LHSebi : A couple of things here aren't mentioned yet, which I think are kind of important: "the timidity of the KLM F/O"...A large factor here was the fact th
45 Oerk : And didn't the PAN AM captain had to listen to the ATC and get off at their assigned turn instead of going a bit further, "cause they felt that would
46 A330 : In reality, Kapt. Jakob van Zanten was seen as a skygod inside KLM. In my opinion, the basic cause of the crash was the KLM flight beginning its T/O-r
47 Hirisk : the crew of the PA did try to tell the tower they were still on the the runway.sadly,at the same moment, KLM keyed the mike to ask a question with atc
48 Rjpieces : Wasn't the KLM captain their most senior 747 pilot or something close?
49 FlyingColours : Rjpieces - He was the senior training captain or something to that extent, he was seen as one of the highest and most highly respected people in the c
50 Osteogenesis : What about the Lufthansa 747 crash in Nairobi? I believe it was the first 747 crash, and it was also a crew mistake, and also a European crew. I think
51 PA120 : There`s a very good book called; "Fasten your seatbelts!" by Valerie Lester, which describes history and heroism in the PanAm cabin. Theres a story ab
52 FlyingColours : Osteogenesis - The Lufthansa 747 at Nairobi was indeed the first Fatal 747 accident. The aircraft departed with the slats retracted because of some pr
53 Osteogenesis : FlyingColours Osteogenesis - The Lufthansa 747 at Nairobi was indeed the first Fatal 747 accident. The aircraft departed with the slats retracted beca
54 FlyingColours : It said that the Hydraulic System was not configured properly, this could mean that there was a problem with the system or that the crew failed to set
55 B741 : I read somewhere that the FE of the KLM jet could have reached over and closed the throttles. He had the authority and if had done this, we would not
56 NIKV69 : Tokolosh, The PanAM 747 was taxing down the runway as ordered, the KLM 747 was ordered to taxi, turn around and WAIT, which the KLM captain disregarde
57 Post contains links PW100 : FlyKAL Thank you! Great contributions to this thread. Great links to especially this one: http://aviation-safety.net/specials/tenerife/comments.htm Qu
58 FLYtoEGCC : NIKV69 There is a difference between disregarding an order, and misunderstanding. The KLM captain THOUGHT the Pan Am jet was clear and as far as he kn
59 NIKV69 : I am sorry but you are reading way too much into this, the captain of the Pan Am 747 was instructed to radio when they were clear of the runway, they
60 Alitis : Somewhere on the internet is the most ominous photo of the KML and Pan Am 747's on the amp just before the accident. Unfortunately , its not on a.net.
61 Post contains images FLYtoEGCC : ..."to disect the ATC transcripts is just a waste of time." I politely disagree, NIKV69. The whole point of CVRs and ATC transcripts is so investigato
62 PW100 : I am sorry but you are reading way too much into this, the captain of the Pan Am 747 was instructed to radio when they were clear of the runway, they
63 NIKV69 : He did not mis-interpret anything, he was in a hurry, he was mad that he had to divert, and complained the whole time while on the ground at Tenerife,
64 ACEregular : Yes, I believe that there is a picture taken by a PAN AM passenger of the KLM jumbo whilst on the ground waiting for the KLM to finish refueling. It i
65 TriJetFan1 : But if the Pan Am crew had successfully taxied to their runway exit, this wouldn't have happened. In a way I agree with you, KLM made the largest mist
66 Post contains links NIKV69 : That pic is on airdisaster.com here it is.. http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/tenerife/4.shtml
67 Post contains images Flykal : Alitis - below is the picture you were referring to. One of the passengers took a photo which shows both aircraft sitting on the ground next to each o
68 PW100 : @NIKV69 I'll refrain from arguing. I'm happy to discuss, not arguing. It is quite obvious from your remarks that you did not bother reading the import
69 Iluv727s : I find it ironic that when KLM learned of the accdent, they delayed the trip to the crash site because they were trying to get ahold of the 747 Chief
70 Go4EVA : The KLM crew had the added pressure to make sure they got to their destination within their duty time. If they had delayed much longer they would have
71 NIKV69 : PW100, It's obvious you are biased because Van Zanten is your country man and KLM is your airline. Sorry but he was wrong, and made a very big mistake
72 Sterne82 : Bloody hell, how can some people manage to survive from such a disaster? When I saw the picture of the 747 burning... Gosh...No word could be added, i
73 Post contains links Go4EVA : I posted this link on another thread... Take a look at how this almost happened AGAIN (NTSB re-creation). Look at the first animation for similarities
74 FLYtoEGCC : TrijetFan1 The Pan Am crew did not make a mistake. If they had turned off at C3, as has been posted before, they would have been stuck in the mud, and
75 MD11Engineer : Concerning the JAL disaster AFIK the repair on the damaged rear bulkhead was carried out by a repair crew from Boeing. The Japanese Engineer signed of
76 NIKV69 : FlytoEGCC, I am not arrogant and I am not defending the Pan Am crew, but the facts are that Van Zanten was in a hurry and tried to begin his first tak
77 DCA-ROCguy : Dear all, I just poked my head into this thread and wanted to compliment everyone on how fascinating it is. Our forum has no doubt had many threads on
78 Jfernandez : Since the radio "squeal" was an issue - how has radio improved since for air traffic? Or has it just been the same?
79 Oerk : Even after the squeel, the flight crew was able to hear in perfect clarity that the Pan Am was still on the runway.... 1706:25.6 APP Roger alpha one s
80 FLYtoEGCC : NIKV69 "the facts are that Van Zanten was in a hurry and tried to begin his first take off roll without clearance and if it wasn't for his F/O stoppin
81 Oerk : ******************* I am not denying Van Zanten was responsible, I AGREE that he was. However, your posts suggest that he is SOLELY to blame. That is
82 FLYtoEGCC : Oerk Thank you for that post. You make a convincing and fair argument and I find it hard to disagree with what you are saying.
83 ACEregular : PAN AM, were told to advise when clear they did not, beacuse they did not clear the runway before the hit = NO FAULT OF THE PAN AM CREW PAN AM, were t
84 ACEregular : However just over 3 years later ATC did play a part in causing a collision of Dan Air flight 1008 to smash into the Esperanza forest on approach to TF
85 Osteogenesis : Does somebody know if the PanAm crew continued working, or did they retire from service?
86 ACEregular : I am pretty certain both pilots survived the inferno, along with at least one FA, who is often seen on documentaries -Dorothy Kelley. This PAN AM plan
87 Socrates17 : Hey: DCA-ROCguy. Tell me about it. The news of this crash hit my subconscious so hard that it gave me a phobia of flying which lasted over a decade. I
88 NIKV69 : Yes that Pan Am 747 was very famous. It is so senseless, it is good to see the last few posts. Van Zanten's poor attitude from the second he was diver
89 Windshear : Pan Am missed their exit, but the KLM was NOT to take off until the Pan Am had stated RWY Vacant! The KLM started to advance the thrust, but then the
90 Post contains links and images ACEregular : View Large View MediumPhoto © Peter de Groot PH-BUF in better times View Large View MediumPhoto © Stefan Sjögren Clipper Victor at JFK just
91 Myk : I always wondered that PAN AM flew with a 747 to Las Palmas. and the same for KLM. I guess that KLM was coming from AMS but what was the origin of Pan
92 NIKV69 : Pan Am flight 1736 departed JFK bound for Las Palmas and had to divert to Tenerife due to a small terroist bomb that exploded in the terminal.
93 Myk : Thanks NIKV69, so PAN AM had direct scheduled flights from JFK to Tenerife ???? SO my question, why are there no flights today between the US and Tene
94 NIKV69 : It was a direct flight to Las Palmas and I don't know if it was a normal scheduled route that Pan Am had. I don't know much about the Canary Islands,
95 Jano : According to "Air Disasters Volume 1; pages 164-181; by Macarthur Job", the Pan Am flight PA1736 originated in LAX and it was a charter flight. It was
96 SlamClick : Flykal As one with limited experience in accident investigation I must disagree with your statement "the whole philosophy of accident investigation is
97 L-188 : You are going to have about as much convincing the Dutch that Captain van Zaanten screwed the pooch as you are of convincing the French that their cra
98 ACEregular : When the British Midland Airways 737-400 G-OBME crashed onto the M1 motorway in Jan 1989. The accident report was very thorough and they put thier han
99 FraT : A side note. Is it true that they built a new Airport on Tenerife, TFS after that accident at TFN because it often had fog like on this ill fated day?
100 ACEregular : Yes an airport was built in the southern part of the island, called Reina Sofia (TFS). This airport has been more or less the gateway for internationa
101 DCA-ROCguy : Literally thousands of times in the past year alone and I mean every time I fly, I have heard a sqeal on VHF radio, blocking a transmission. And every
102 Jwenting : Also keep in mind (what many people who blame Capt. Van Zanten do not) that communications procedures were found to allow for ambiguity in phraseology
103 DCA-ROCguy : The evidence we have here indicates that the TV in the ATC cab cannot be shown to have a role in the accident. However idiotic is is that air traffic
104 PW100 : OK guys. Obviously I came a little too strong on some of you in "defending" Cpt van Zanten. Sorry for that if I offended any of you in the process. I
105 David T : Osteogenesis: I believe the 2 pilots and F/E retired after the incident, but if anyone has specific information, I would like to know as well. There w
106 SlamClick : David T I think I also heard that Captain van Zanten appeared in the KLM ads in National Geographic Magazine a couple of years before this. That would
107 David T : SlamClick: I think you just hit the nail on the head! That is where I have seen that ad.... My folks had a subscription (or something like that, whate
108 TriJetFan1 : Help!!- The book terror at tenerife is out of print, where can I get it?
109 NIKV69 : I bought a used copy on Yahoo, go to any book site and you can find one, used but in good condition.
110 Tokolosh : If I remember correctly, the KLM ad SlamClick is referring to appeared in the February or March 1977 issue of National Geographic, the month of the cr
111 ACEregular : Tokolosh Did this lady fly on the actual flight from AMS intended for LPA but decided to get off when the plane landed at TFN? If she did that is the
112 Dutchflyer : "The evidence we have here indicates that the TV in the ATC cab cannot be shown to have a role in the accident. However idiotic is is that air traffic
113 ACEregular : This is a very sore point for the Dutch, however we are not disputing that a football match was being watched in the tower. Even if they had not been
114 Tokolosh : ACEregular, It is indeed very spooky (she was indeed on the flight from Ams). I wish I knew where to find the details on the net, but I remember that
115 Dutchflyer : If ATc wasn't watching the game they may have responded in a way to the transmission: "we are at take-off". Their situational awareness was lacking du
116 ACEregular : I have just done a little bit of research and discovered that flight KL4805 was chartered by the Holland International Travel Group and they had an em
117 Tokolosh : Shot ACEregular! That must be her. I'm not sure about this, but I think she originally intended to go to Tenerife anyway and that is why she decided t
118 Oerk : ****************** * The misleading effect of the word "O.K." from the tower, after the KLM - had reported "We are at take-off" or "We are -eh-, taki
119 Dutchflyer : @Oerk van Zanten made a fatal error, no doubt about that. But, the role of ATC isn't that perfect either. As stated previous watching a game and guidi
120 Oerk : ************************* If ATc wasn't watching the game they may have responded in a way to the transmission: "we are at take-off". Their situationa
121 Oerk : ******************* But, the role of ATC isn't that perfect either. As stated previous watching a game and guiding the planes can be done at the same
122 NIKV69 : Will you please stop trying to defend Van Zanten. He was WRONG. It wasn't the television that had the soccer game on in the tower. What is ATC suppose
123 Dutchflyer : I'm not defending van Zanten. He is to blame, it's his fault. Unconditional, period. But ATC and the PanAm crew roles are not completely free of error
124 Post contains links and images PW100 : Off course van Zanten made a huge mistake! However just repeatedly claiming this was "haste, plain and simple" does not help to understand why oh why.
125 Jwenting : Noone's trying to defend the decisions Captain van Zanten made that faithful day. What we ARE trying to do is stop people from villanising him, which
126 FraT : Palma (PMI) is on Mallorca. The planned destination of both A/C was Las Palmas (LPA) on the Canary island of Gran Canaria.
127 Yyz717 : Noone's trying to defend the decisions Captain van Zanten made that faithful day. What we ARE trying to do is stop people from villanising him, Well,
128 Cedarjet : The "spooky" (or whatever) photo of the two planes on the ramp at Tenerife is bullshit, the KLM that crashed was still in the old colours, and the air
129 Krags : This has been one of the best threads that I've seen on here in quite some time. In 1984 I did my senior term paper over the crash. I spent 4 months c
130 Oerk : In the end, the REAL guilty party of this terrible accident is neither the KLM crew, nor the PanAm crew, nor the tower crew. It's the person or person
131 DCA-ROCguy : I agree, Krags, what a thoughtful and informative thread this has been. Time is short for me tonight, and Oerk has already summed up in his reply #131
132 Adam727 : according to the picture of the airport why did the two planes taxied on the reunway when they could of taxied on the taxieway where it was safer
133 Xpfg : Not to play devil's advocate or to bring another "what if?" into this, but what if Van Zanten had been able to complete that first take-off attempt th
134 Post contains links and images L-188 : They where parking other diverted aircraft on the taxiways due to the bombing. Kind of like what they had to do at Halifax during the 9/11 flight stop
135 David T : This thread is quite long so if I repeat a question which has been answered or discussed, I apologise. Is the Controller still alive today? Has the co
136 ACEregular : I believe that there were lots of other aircraft that were stranded there whilst the investigators pawed through the wreckage. I remember seeing a fil
137 David T : As an added thought along with my other questions... Reading the Pan Am CVR, it appeared as though the Pan Am pilots seemed aware of the urgent intere
138 NIKV69 : I don't think they would have enough time to radio anything. As soon as they saw the lights of the approaching 747 they went to the full throttle and
139 Gasman : As an observer as impartial as this forum is likely to get, and as one frequently involved in critical incident analysis may I make the following poin
140 Chiawei : I still failed to see what Pan Am crew did wrong. The instruction to Pan Am was super clear. report when clear the runway. PAN AM CREW NEVER CLEARED R
141 Dutchflyer : PanAm crew error was not leaving the runway on C3. The turn was extreem tight therefore they decided to use C4, no problem, but they should have state
142 Gasman : The safest ride in airplane might be one where it is pulled a few metres along the tarmac by a tractor. The least safe might be a flight in a non airw
143 Oerk : At tenerife there was - a crowded airport, not used to being so; - two aircraft on a runway at the same time. Both invisible to each other and the tow
144 PW100 : We all know now that the KLM 747 took off without being cleared. This is undisputed by all parties. Also it is undisputed that there are many contribu
145 Gasman : Okay Oerk - for the benefit of those to whom it is necessary to state the obvious, here it is. The decision of the KLM crew to take off in the (justif
146 BHXviscount : Point to those with the "chain of events" theory. Its ALWAYS the last chain in an event which will be the deciding factor, Van Zantens decision to tak
147 FLYtoEGCC : BHXviscount That near miss at MAN sounds very interesting. I'd not heard about it. What's your source? I'd like to know more about that.
148 NIKV69 : Just got my copy of "Terror at Tenerife" Looks to be a great book, will read it cover to cover and report back!
149 Nwacrew : As stated above, the Pan Am flight was a charter taking passengers to join Royal Cruise Line's "Golden Odyssey". The founder of the cruise line, Richa
150 Post contains links FlyingColours : FLYtoEGCC - That was reported in this thread; ttp://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1439021/6/ Really freaky, but thankfully
151 Aeronautik13 : AIR DISASTER voume 1 has a chapter devoted to it. I know it's not the whole book, but trust me, AD (all 4 volumes) are some of the best, most detailed
152 NIKV69 : Great book so far! The crash was horrible and these survivors went to a terrible experience. This crash was very unique in even though the Pan Am plan
153 Aussie747 : Another couple of references are as follows Air Accident Investigation by David Owen Published first in 1998 Aviation Disasters by David Gero Publishe
154 ClassicLover : Hello people! Welcome to my first post! I'd been wondering whether to sign up or not for months and I did it because I had to reply to something that
155 Robsawatsky : "Point to those with the "chain of events" theory. Its ALWAYS the last chain in an event which will be the deciding factor, Van Zantens decision to ta
156 NIKV69 : This is not true, please! Van Zanten was annoyed, irritated and in a major hurry. This is the only factor as to why these two 747s collided. If Van Za
157 BlackBox : Hello all, first post. One thing I have not seen mentioned in this thread: I distinctly remember reading accounts of this accident, noting that the tr
158 NIKV69 : I just helped your respected users rating BlackBox! I think you may be on to something, the reason the captain of the Pan Am 747 said what he said is
159 BlackBox : Thank you NIKV69. I will likewise add you as a respected user (as soon as I reach the minimum 20 posts, that is!)
160 NIKV69 : My Pleasure! I am almost done with this book. It was quite good. I suggest you all read it!
161 Gasman : It is tempting to speculate, and I must admit having done so along similar lines to "BlackBox", but perhaps we should stick to the facts. "Robsawatsky
162 Canoecarrier : What a great topic, not only have we brought new users to this forum, this is certainly one of the most influencing topics posted in quite some time.
163 RA-85154 : I also purchased a 2nd hand copy of 'Terror at Tenerife' last year and I have to say it it a very chilling account of the crash and the survival. ----
164 727200er : I was going to avoid this thread but... Although I agree that there are a lot of things that went wrong in this disaster. The single most important fa
165 NIKV69 : Well said 727200er! Doesn't make you unpopular at all! You know what you are talking about! Just because we are putting blame where it belongs doesn't
166 PW100 : . . . but the facts to me are obvious . . . The facts are clear to everyone. Even to me . . . and although apparently I have not made myself popular b
167 NIKV69 : PW100, You are missing the point, you think he got something from ATC that he mis-understood as clearance? No, as soon as he turned around after taxin
168 Trijetfan1 : NIKV69- I got the book for my b-day on 2/22 and I cant wait to read it!! But I have to read about 3 books for school right now so im backed up on work
169 NIKV69 : Trijetfan1, It's a great book!! You will love it. Worth the wait, I won't say more because I don't want to ruin the book for you. Enjoy and lets compa
170 Yqfca : I'd like to make a few corrections as to how the two 747s collided. As someone mentioned before: "I remember that the PanAm captain could see the rudd
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