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Fined For A Bad Attitude At Security?  
User currently offlineVSLover From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1897 posts, RR: 22
Posted (10 years 7 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3191 times:

HAHA, this is a riot--from cnn.com--how can higher fines deter people if rather hefty fines couldnt do it already? and only $10,000 for trying to bring a bomb on?? That seems a bit low one would think--when combined with an arrest and probable jail time that is. Plus how would they define "bad attitude" believe me, I am no happy person at security for a 6am flight.


-------------------------------------------
Big fines for banned items at airports
Bad attitude could raise fines

Wednesday, February 18, 2004 Posted: 9:09 PM EST (0209 GMT)


WASHINGTON (AP) -- Anyone trying to sneak a knife onto an airplane could be fined $250 and a passenger with an explosive could get as much as $10,000 under new guidelines.

Thousands of airline passengers board planes every year carrying banned items such as cuticle scissors, box cutters and guns.

Tom Blank, assistant administrator for transportation security policy, testified before Congress last week that the Transportation Security Administration has intercepted more than 1,650 firearms, more than 3 million knives and more than 57,000 incendiary devices since shortly after the terrorist hijackings on September 11, 2001.

"Fines may help awaken a sleeping population here," said David Stempler, president of the Air Travelers Association.

"We have too many examples of people inadvertently bringing a gun in their carry-on."

When Congress created the Homeland Security Department last year, it raised the maximum fine for trying to carry prohibited items through airport security from $1,100 to $10,000. The TSA, which became part of Homeland Security, issued the guidelines on Wednesday spelling out the range of fines applied to each violation.

Mark Hatfield, TSA spokesman, said the new schedule of fines shows that the agency is serious about keeping dangerous items off planes. "'I forgot I had the gun in the bag' is not an acceptable excuse," he said.

The guidelines list aggravating factors, such as "attitude" and "artful concealment," that can bring a heftier fine.

Though bringing a prohibited item to a checkpoint is illegal, fines won't be levied on everyone who inadvertently tries to bring a pair of cuticle scissors or a cigarette lighter through airport security.
Prosecution and appeals

The guidelines call for going easy on children, inexperienced flyers or people who disclose that they are carrying something they shouldn't.

"We're looking for weapons, we're not looking for scissors," Hatfield said.

Airline passengers carrying banned items can be prosecuted either for civil or criminal violations.

If TSA screeners catch someone committing a criminal act, such as carrying a concealed weapon or assaulting a screener, they'll call local law enforcement officials.

Those accused of a civil violation will receive a notice of violation and an option sheet in the mail. They get a 50 percent discount on the fine if they pay within 30 days.

Those who want to appeal the fine have several options, including a hearing before a Coast Guard judge.

Hatfield said the TSA can't say how many people have been fined because the databases for its legal department were moved and aren't accessible right now.

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBrido From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 160 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (10 years 7 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3175 times:

"We're looking for weapons, we're not looking for scissors," Hatfield said.


Ummm.....scissors are weapons.



And why a "Coast Guard judge" for appeals?


User currently offlineVSLover From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1897 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (10 years 7 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3139 times:

I believe appeals for cases like this--involving commercial passenger vessels--are directly under coast guard jurisdiction for that very reason, ie commercial passenger vessels, and all related appeals will be treated as a civil penalty case involving passenger vessels.

i mean if you operate a scuba excursion, for example, without a liscense and get busted, you would have to appeal to the coast guard court.


User currently offlineFreshlove1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 7 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3087 times:

That's going to be a touchy subject if they are fining people thousands of $$ for items not allowed on. I can see it now, Granny has scissors and they take them away and let her board, but a 25 year old man (for example) has a box cutter in his business case is going to be fined $10,000. Why let granny go but not him?. Either fine them all or don't fine anyone, and just take the item. TSA is going to get burned real bad at sometime with this. I am all for safety but there has to be a set rule that is held in place with no exceptions. All or nothing.

User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12250 posts, RR: 35
Reply 4, posted (10 years 7 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3062 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Speaking of the TSA, they took away a tiny 5/16 inch wrench from me yesterday. I use it to disconnect the battery in my car so it doesn't get tapped (something's wrong), and accidentally put it in my pocket instead of back in the car. So of course the metal detector beeped, and they said no tools are allowed. How paranoid can you get? What exactly am I gonna do with a tiny wrench? Disassemble the plane? I even work for XJ and was in uniform on my way to work.


911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlineMirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7443 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (10 years 7 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3048 times:
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great!!! WHo can I fine for the employee's shittiest attitude as he probes me?


Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
User currently offlineContinental From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5517 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (10 years 7 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3006 times:

"scissors are weapons."

Not true, they may be used AS weapons though. You can apply the same thing to a metal ruler or a sharp pencil, technically they are not weapons, though they may be used as one.

co


User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6204 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (10 years 7 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2960 times:

looks like another fundraising scheme by TSA.


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineSkymonster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 7 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2863 times:

Another un-necessary over-the-top reaction. At my local airport in the UK, if a passenger is found at a security checkpoint with scissors, a small knife, or something else prohibited like that (OK, so may be different for guns though, especially in the UK!), instead of fining the passenger and confiscating them item, the security screeners let the passenger go back out to one of the shops in the land-side concorse and buy a padded envelope and stamp (several shops are set up to sell these at low-margins for the express purpose of helping passengers). The passenger can then post the offending items back home to themselves. Result - no problem items get carried onto airplanes, no items need to be confiscated, no fine, everyone's happy.

Andy


User currently offlineFLYtoEGCC From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 947 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (10 years 7 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2795 times:

My mum's had about three pairs of nail scissors and two pairs of tweezers confiscated at various airports. On no occasion did she get even so much as a dirty look, the security staff were just polite but firm and, quite rightly, removed the items quickly. I understand the need to be careful, but hefty fines? Sounds a little harsh to me. Anyone can make a mistake, as proved by security staff who allow journalists carrying knives through, proving they can do it. It's been in the newspapers in the UK on a few occasions, particularly after 9/11.


Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away...
User currently offlineSocrates17 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 54 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 years 7 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2765 times:

Cigarette lighters????? What am I supposed to do if the business lounge is past security????? Rub two cocktail stirrers together?????

(Most overseas lounges have smoking areas or there are smoking areas close to the lounge as at Narita and the United lounge.)

Oh, and non-smokers? Go and listen to a Bill Hicks CD. Any one will do.



You Can't Take the Sky from Me
User currently offlineFLYtoEGCC From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 947 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (10 years 7 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2713 times:

I got quite a ticking off from a security official at STN last year because I tried to take a photo of my girlfriend being body-searched after she set off the metal detector. Only a ticking off, though, nothing more. Out of interest, what would paranoid US officials do about something like that? Anyone have any similar experiences?


Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away...
User currently offlineCsavel From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1363 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (10 years 7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2629 times:

FLYtoEGCC
I was just in LGA and there are signs prominently placed warning "no photographs". First and only time I saw that in a US airport.

I wonder, if the TSA decided to confiscate, say a pen knife, can you refuse, and go back out and mail it to yourself? You would not be entering the 'secure area" with contraband. I mean, do you *have* to surrender the stuff?



I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
User currently offlineSkymonster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 7 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2621 times:

Casvel - see above, that's exactly what they allow passengers to do at my local airport, although that's in the UK.

Andy


User currently offlineCsavel From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1363 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (10 years 7 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2584 times:

Skymonster,
Yes, that's what prompted me to ask about the TSA. Perhaps I should have made that more clear that it was in response to your post and only about the situation in the US. i shall edit it to make that more clear.

PS I also remember seeing the civilized practice you describe in Dublin.




I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
User currently offlineAlphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 937 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (10 years 7 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2569 times:

Here is a link to the TSA's list of prohibited items.

http://www.tsa.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/Permitted_Prohibited_12_18_2003.pdf

Concerning cigarette lighters- here is the policy:

Up to 2 lighters or 4 books of safety matches are allowed in your carry-on baggage-NOT CHECKED BAGGAGE. Disposable lighters and absorbed liquid lighters are allowed in your carry-on baggage. Lighters with unabsorbed liquid fuel are not permitted. Strike anywhere matches are not permitted.



"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
User currently offlineRIX From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1787 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (10 years 7 months 23 hours ago) and read 2487 times:

"what would paranoid US officials do" - nothing different from paranoid UK officials.

"do you *have* to surrender the stuff?" - in 1990, flying from ARN, I had a knife that was not allowed to the cabin. They didn't confiscate it, nor told me to mail it. Just packed it in a separate small bag (their own) and sent as a luggage - by the same flight, of course. Looked like a common practice. Why not now? Then they didn't even take the bag from me after arrival, today, as much more may be required, they can do so...



User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6449 posts, RR: 54
Reply 17, posted (10 years 7 months 22 hours ago) and read 2449 times:

Just before Christmas I made a business trip together with a colleague. My colleague, who isn't flying very often, carried an ordinary carry-on bag and a small lady's handbag.

Security found a small, ordinary Swiss Army knife at the bottom of the small lady's bag - it had always been there, just for convenience. She probably hadn't used it for years.

The security officer gave her a small cardboard box - for free of course - with something like "security item" printed all over, put the knife into the box, lent my colleague a pen so she could white her name etc. on it (there was a special frame on the box for that), and instructed her how to go back to the check-in counter and have it registered as additional checked baggage.

And he did it all with a smile.

But while other security officers served other people through the system, then he made sure that as many people as possible would notice what was going on, so they could avoid being red faced next time.

This was at CPH - Copenhagen.

$10,000 fine!!! Huh, there is a huge culture difference. I prefer the Danish system.

We are at war against terrorism. What are we fighting for? We are of course fighting for our freedom and for protection of the general lifestyle we have chosen. Sometimes it seems like America is just about losing the war. Not due to the enemy, but due to what war generals call "collaborate damage".

Happy landing, Preben Norholm



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineRIX From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1787 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (10 years 7 months 21 hours ago) and read 2400 times:

"Anyone trying to sneak a knife onto an airplane could be fined $250" - so, the lady couldn't be fined 10,000 for "a small, ordinary Swiss Army knife". Anyway, carrying banned item to a cabin, knowingly or not, is a violation. I don't know if punishment for violation is not a part of "the Danish system". I'm not sure $250 for knife or $10,000 for explosive, or whatever else, is a right thing. But I know that if "10,000 fine!!! Huh, there is a huge culture difference. I prefer the Danish system" is not a sample of arrogance, then the latter simply doesn't exist.

Regards,
RIX


User currently offlineSkymonster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 2323 times:

RIX, your remarks typify the problem and the insensitivity of taking a heavy handed approach to the problem - arrogance is in believing that the blunt instrument of a fine effectively solves the problem.

So, its a violation. So in Denmark and at my airport in the UK they let folks go back landside and rid themselves of the offending item without any need for fines and the like. Maybe it is a cultural difference, but both approaches achieve the same result and chances are both will be equally effective in the passenger thinking more carefully about what they should carry onto the next flight. However, one approach solves the problem to the mutual satisfaction of both parties, whilst the other leaves a bad taste, possibly long term anger at the way the system works, as well as a somewhat lighter wallet. Its a bit like smacking kids, which is very politically incorrect in Europe these days - sure you can hit them, but it might just turn them against you in the end. Or you can deal with things fairly and reasonably. I too will take the Danish approach thank you.

Andy


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29799 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (10 years 7 months 3 hours ago) and read 2234 times:

So who fines the TSA agents for a holier then thou...little Hitler attitude.





OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineRIX From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1787 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2151 times:

Dear Skymonster,

I, too, prefer not to be fined but just warned and let "fix it" myself. My posts were not about the problem itself though. Arrogance is to say "paranoid US officials" (or are you sure US have a monopoly on paranoia? Then, I'd say, this would be paranoia itself), or "Huh, there is a huge culture difference. I prefer the ... system." (what the hell does it have to do with "cultural difference"... just another [silly/stupid/idiotic/... whatever else, if anything] decision by authorities. Or is the rest of the world free of this? I'd say, thinking so would be the utterly clear example of arrogance!). Hope, I made myself clear now. Or did I have to bother at all?..


User currently offlineFLYtoEGCC From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 947 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2132 times:

Sorry if I offended anyone with the "paranoid US officials" phrase. I wrote this just after I'd read KaiGywer's post about having the tiny wrench removed. I honestly did not mean any offence to anyone.


Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away...
User currently offlineNlink From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2064 times:

I am one for fining people that keep bring items such as knifes thru checkpoint, which they have had over 2 years to learn they can't take them. I have talked to numerous congress people about it. It is the same as a speeding ticket, they generally don't tell you not to do it again, you pay a penalty which deters a lot of people from doing it.
I also believe the TSA should start fining the passengers that carry more than 1 carry on and the personal item thru security, not the airlines. The way they are doing it now would be like Ford paying the fine everytime someone got a ticket speeding in a Mustang. That would be stupid.
If people are hurt in the pocket they will be a whole lot more likely to obey by the rules.


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