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Why No Southwest At Denver  
User currently offlineOrd777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 258 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4521 times:

Hope this hasn't been discussed too many times before. Anyway, I was wondering why SWA hasn't begun service to Denver. I'm sure there must be some specific reasons because it seems like a natural choice for the airline. Any info is appreciated. Thanks!

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4496 times:

Costs. The landing fees and rental rates on space at DEN are extremely high, and higher than SWA wants to pay.

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4434 times:

Not only landing fees and rental rates are ridiculous at DEN like OPNLguy stated, WN didnt see much benefit to DEN flying. UA and F9 already dominate DEN and flying there didnt make much of a difference to WN since they wanted to fly to smaller airports that were compatable to their 20 min turn time.


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineAir1727 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 4405 times:

Actually Southwest used to fly to Denver; however, with the fierce competition between United and Continental at the time at Stapleton, plus the delays, it was not worth the headache for their business model and pulled out.

User currently offlineF9Widebody From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1604 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 4390 times:

Ord777, my friend, the real question is why haven't they come to COSBig grin

Regards,
F9W



YES URLS in signature!!!
User currently offlinePlanenutz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 4330 times:

SWA did serve DEN at one point but withdrew because of the high cost of doing business a the airport and because of air traffic delays. The same reason that SWA left SFO.

SWA has only ever left four markets in it's history: DEN, SFO, DTW (re-entered later), and Beaumont, TX. Their reason for leaving DTW was the result of a rather nasty battle with NW. When SWA decided to enter the DTW marlek, the only available gates were already leased by NW. NW subleased gates to SWA at rates 18 times higher than NW's costs. NW refused to re-negotiate the leases and SW couldn't force the airport to terminate its leases with NW (NW has an agreement with DTW Airport that because of its heavy investment in the new airport, its the only carrier that can maintain dominate hub status). So SWA withdrew service and re-entered when NW's financial status resulted in it's giving up leases at DTW and therefore SWA could lease directly from the airport.



User currently offlineIndustrialPate From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 4294 times:

Planenutz,

Are you thinking of NK? WN served DET but left for DTW because of DET's inadequacies & the airport's/Detroit mayor's empty promises to fix them. They moved into the "A" gates at DTW where they've been ever since... NW haver had any control over the "A" gates nor did NW lease those gates to WN. However, NW did sublease random gates to NK... NK claimed they were being raped but never gave figures, so nobody really knows.


User currently offlineTcfc424 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 517 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 4256 times:

From what I have read/heard, the blood between WN and DEN is long standing. They flew into Stapleton, and when DIA was proposed, there were supposed to be some frills for WN and lower fees, however when Denver changed that, Herb balked and vowed never to fly to DEN again.

User currently offlineAir1727 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4222 times:

Southwest pulled out of 6 airports in its lifetime.

Houston Intercontinental - left in 1972 to HOU; reinstated 1980
Beaumont/Port Arthur - left after 18 months of unprofitable ops
Denver - left for reasons states above
Jackson Hole - seasonal service Dec 85 to Apr 86 from HOU; sat only
San Francisco - left because of severe delay expenses
Detroit City - started service in 88; all ops consolidated to DTW by 93

A total of four cities were removed from the system.


User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4218 times:

Planenutz
In your post you I believe you are trying to give the vibe that WN is better than DEN and that is why they left. I would like to make it very clear that WN would love to have service to DEN however DEN is not an airport that caters to the trash that is a Southwest passenger. DEN has I believe at this time the highest fees of any US airport and can do that because it is the best facility in the US. DEN is full of upper class shopping and restaurants and seems like a high class shopping center. Passengers flying WN usually care nothing about any of this and just want to get to where they are going and that is why DEN would not give WN any lower fees. (Because they did not want WN customers more than any other airline) And that is why WN doesn't fly here.
THAT BEING SAID, I do think that WN has a GREAT business plan and if I owned an airline I would want it to be WN! I will fly WN if I am going on a short hop and it is a lot less money than the others, but we all know that most of the trash that flies does their flying on Southwest (Just watch Airline)



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineSR 103 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1740 posts, RR: 39
Reply 10, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4215 times:

Planenutz,

Southwest never withdrew from DTW. They withdrew from DET (Detroit City) and it had nothing to do with NW. I am currently writing a substantial paper on Southwest for an Aviation consultant and am pretty well versed on Southwest's history and failed cities. The four cities that WN has pulled out of are SFO/DEN/DET/BPT(Beaumont, TX).

The reason they pulled out of DET was also as IP stated above, due to runway extension issues. You can look up a brief history of Southwest at their corporate site if you don't beleive us. The link is http://www.ifly737.com

SR 103


User currently offlineFlyABR From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 672 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4204 times:

what is keeping southwest out of MSP...other than NWA hates them...

User currently offlineIndustrialPate From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4175 times:

UAL747DEN,

Do you really believe that WN doesn’t serve DEN because people living & traveling to DEN are wealthy enough to have other choices?  Innocent Then please explain to me how F9 has been able to survive for a decade -- I'd love to hear your response. "Duh, well, nobody in DEN flies F9 -- all of F9's traffic in DEN is merely connecting. Because we're rich and perfer UA." Some will argue that WN offers a higher class of service than UA...


User currently offlineIndustrialPate From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4162 times:

what is keeping southwest out of MSP...other than NWA hates them...

How is NW keeping WN out of MSP? WN serves DTW but isn't overly successful - in fact, DTW is one of the few markets in which WN has shrank over the past several years... the Saturday service to LAS that begin in the fall got the ax pretty quickly...


User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4140 times:

IndustrialPate
F9 has a very high standard of service and the prices on F9 are much higher than WN. F9 and UA have very comparable levels of service in coach and there prices are about the same in most markets. Now you must be crazy if you think that WN has a "higher Class" of service than UA. WN Doesn't try to have better service than UA or any other airline for that matter. They sell cheap tickets and give the cheapest service possible and that is why they make money. They also enable a lot of people who would otherwise not fly to do so on Southwest due to there cheap tickets and that is why they get a lot of trash flying them. Now what I was saying is DEN will not give WN a break on the fees that they charge due to the fact that the airport doesn't need WN to fly here.



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineBoingGoingGone From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4139 times:

WN lives cheap and DEN costs too much to operate out of. Simple as that.

User currently offlineIndustrialPate From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4126 times:

UAL747DEN,
Any reasonable person should be able to read your post and laugh his/her ass off. According to you, the reason WN doesn't serve DEN is because everybody there is rich enough to fly better airlines & all WN would do is bring poor people to the city. Absolutely hilarious!

And BTW, only a fool would deny that DEN's high costs did not contribute to UA's woes -- hell, even UA admits that!


User currently offlineBoingGoingGone From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4107 times:

UAL747.... Did you forget that the Denver area is loaded with washed up tree huggin' hippies? All wealthy... Riiiiiiighhht...

User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4107 times:

Let's not forget that Denver only has its airport because its former mayor became US Transportation Secretary and was able to save a grotesquely over-budget, behind-schedule airport that ended up costing the taxpayers billions more than they bargained for.


"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineAlphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 937 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4096 times:

F9's traffic distribution is:

33% originate at DEN
33% DEN is destination
33% connecting

-Jeff Potter, CEO Frontier Airlines, 1/29/04

Will get a little more complicated in April.

I will fly WN .....but we all know that most of the trash that flies does their flying on Southwest (Just watch Airline)

ROFL






"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4094 times:

IndustrialPate
Please point out to me where I said anything about DEN's high costs and UA. I did not say that everyone in Denver is rich and WN would bring the poor. I said that DEN has high fees and that they weren't going to give WN a break so WN would not make any money operating flights to DEN. WN has said in many interviews that the price of a cab in Denver to get from the airport to the city would cost more than their ticket price and that their customers are not the type of customers willing to pay that. Now I did try to point out that DEN is a very expensive airport and that WN is an extremely cheap airline that caters to they type of person looking for a cheap flight. DEN Would not benefit from those type of passengers coming through the airport and again that is why they did not give WN any kind of special deal.
On a side note, almost every other US airline operates flights to DEN and non of them get any special deal on the fees, so it should be obvious why WN doesn't come to DIA when they did used to fly to Stapleton...



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4081 times:

BoeingGoingGone
Again where did I say that? And you are wrong the Denver area is one of the most economically rich cities in the country. Denver is the telecomm hub of the United States. If Denver is such a bad city why are there so many international flight here per day compared to other cities of Denver's magnitude???



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineBoingGoingGone From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4055 times:

UAL give it up. I lived in Denver for 7 years. Their financial stature is no where near other cities such as San Diego, Chicago, Madison, WI, Minneapolis. Yeah. Madison.

User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4032 times:

BoeingGoingGone
Im not surprised by your post, this is the same junk that you always post. The members here have just learned to not listen to anything that comes out of your mouth. I think you need to look at the actual statistic's before typing trying to trash Denver.....



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineBoingGoingGone From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4011 times:

Ummm... Yeah whatever. Breathe in a little more of that smog layer that's hanging around.

[Edited 2004-02-19 08:42:01]

25 MAH4546 : DEN is full of upper class shopping and restaurants and seems like a high class shopping center. You have got to be kidding yourself. Do realize that
26 UAL747DEN : MAH4546 For you information DEN charges higher fees than all of the places that you mentioned. The point was that WN wanted DEN to give them a special
27 Goingboeing : Denverites apparently must have TV. F9 has TV. Therefore, they are "higher quality" than Southwest, and there success in Denver is assured. But as for
28 OPNLguy : >>>SWA has only ever left four markets in it's history: DEN, SFO, DTW (re-entered later), and Beaumont, TX. Their reason for leaving DTW was the resul
29 N766UA : UAL747DEN: Are you serious? High fees are charged at DEN because of all the construction that's been going on, not just because they can charge them.
30 Swacle : UAL747DEN DEN is not an airport that caters to the trash that is a Southwest passenger If UA's product is sooo much better, then why is your company i
31 Gigneil : UAL give it up. I lived in Denver for 7 years. Their financial stature is no where near other cities such as San Diego, Chicago, Madison, WI, Minneap
32 OPNLguy : >>>Swacle While I have respect for people's right to their own opinions (even when they diverge from mine) arguing with UAL747DEN about his statement
33 Yanksn4 : As long as United Airlines and Frontier Airlines are alive, then Denver International Airport dosn't need Southwest Airlines. First, where can you now
34 Jmy007 : Working with selling flights, day in and day out, DIA, with all the high taxs, landing fees, etc, is not expensive to fly into by any stretch of the i
35 Luv2fly : Also WN started service to DTW before the short lived service to DET was started and stopped.
36 LTBEWR : Another reason WN may not do DIA is that it is TOOOOOO far from the Denver market areas where most people live. Add the time it takes to get to DIA, a
37 Yanksn4 : LTBEWR, do you mean Southwest Airlines instead of Northwest Airlines? If you mean Northwest, then check your facts. Northwest Airlines does serve Denv
38 Ssides : Distance doesn't seem to be that big of an issue for WN in many cases. For example, they don't mind serving MHT and PVD, but avoid BOS. They serve BWI
39 Gigneil : But why don't WN serve COS? Pacific Western did a pretty good voulme of business, with those colorful planes until majors hurt them. Lets be clear. No
40 Post contains images Jmy007 : LTBEWR said "Another reason WN may not do DIA is that it is TOOOOOO far from the Denver market areas where most people live. Add the time it takes to
41 OPNLguy : >>>Also WN started service to DTW before the short lived service to DET was started and stopped. Nope. See messages #5, #6 #8 #10 and #28 in this thre
42 Scottb : I'm not sure I'd call fares to and from DEN "great," though they are not as high as they would be if UA were the only hub carrier at DEN. F9's average
43 Post contains images SafetyDude : The simple word Frontier cannot get out of my mind -Will
44 Freshlove1 : High costs and delays in DEN??, but yet they go into PHL. Do they know that PHL is notorious for ATC/WX delays 2/3 of the year??? They may second gues
45 JumboBumbo : BoingGoingGone: UAL747.... Did you forget that the Denver area is loaded with washed up tree huggin' hippies? All wealthy... Riiiiiiighhht... What chi
46 F9Widebody : UAL747DEN... being a native of Colorado I can say that Denver is NOT the "high class shopping" mecca you believe it to be. Yes, it has a few "lifestyl
47 UAL747DEN : JumboBumbo I was talking about the airport. I would never conceder the city of DENVER to be any sort of shopping meca! FreshLove1 Your right DEN is no
48 I LOVE EWR : This is VERY funny!!
49 Cmckeithen : F9 is there. A LCC.
50 Luv2fly : OPNLguy Having grown up in the MI area my whole lofe and bing in the travel industry I do know when and where WN started service first, and it was DTW
51 RayChuang : Given the steep landing fees and the fact DEN is WAY out of town, small wonder why WN is not interested in flying there. However, I think WN may be in
52 OPNLguy : Luv2fly I stand corrected. Rather than trust my memory any further, I checked with schedule planning this morning, and we did indeed start DTW first (
53 B757capt : Guys I can believe that you at attacking each other about this. From my experience I can say that an Airline likes to look at a city where they will m
54 Luv2fly : OPNLguy I to was rechecking my facts, tho I remember flying WN when they first offered service from DTW to MDW for only $9.00 each way, and that inclu
55 Post contains images OPNLguy : What was throwing me was that I seemed to recall having to divert from DET (due to the easily exceeed crosswind limits we had there due to 15/33 only
56 Luv2fly : Not a problem as a lot of others had remembered it the same way and I was beginnings to think hey maybe I am wrong here. Tho I was wracking my brain t
57 AATripleseven : I am SO tired of being constantly saying that "trash" flies Southwest. Here's a neat idea that will help settle the stereotype: I will take pictures o
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