Zippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5601 posts, RR: 12 Posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3997 times:
By accident, I learned that the first pure jet passenger airliner was of Canadian heritage. The Avro C-102 Jetliner. I understand National Airlines and Howard Hughes were very interested in purchasing (former) and manufacturing (latter). However, the Korean war and other factors grounded this bird. Any other information about this one? What other U.S. carriers were interested? What if this plane made it? Its impact on aviation today?
707437 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 152 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3897 times:
If this breaks your heart than do a search regarding the AVRO Canada Arrow fighter or the British TSR 2.
Everyone assumes that Boeing somehow always had a superior product back then and that is why they dominated the market for so long. In reality they had good timing and the determination to go forward. And their civil aircraft were not subject to government approval before going into production.
State sponsored aircraft ventures for state owned airlines resulted in many disappointing developments in aircraft design in the 40s 50s and 60s. In sheer numbers Douglas and Boeing owned the Jet market. But the Bristol, Brabzon, Brittania, Princess Flying Boat, VC-10, BAC-111, Dassault Mercure & Concorde were all fine aircraft but for some reason each of them did sell nearly as well as the Boeings and MD products. The Caravelle and the Trident faired better though.
Europe's large jet airliners were state sponsored market flops rarely selling more that a few hundred units a piece. . . Then came the A300 and the rest is history and unless Boeing gets back to its roots it will be history too.
Trintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3272 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (11 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3805 times:
707437 I may be tempted to disagree with you on one point. The BAC-111 was a huge success - much more so than the Trident, for instance and saw sales in the USA to AA. It did not sell as many as the DC-9, to be true but in its own right it was the UK's most successful jet airliner.
707437 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 152 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (11 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3726 times:
I stand corrected!
But it was sad to see all the missed opportunities that AVRO Canada had due to bad politics and bad timing. It seems like the C-102 was a short range jet with 1200 miles max range so would it have been much faster than a Constellation and over 1200 miles how much block time would it really save? It didn't have transoceanic or even intercontinental range so it would be real limited but then there are always growth versions I suppose.
How many BAC-111s were produced? And how many still fly?
Perhaps its my Bias but I really didn't think that Europe produced an aircraft that would have the economic longevity and sheer numbers of a McD or Boeing product until the A300 came along.
Back in those days it took so many more man hours to build an airplane. I wonder how many aircraft a manufacturer would have to produce to make a profit.
I doubt Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier or Embraer could sell less than a few hundred of any one particular aircraft type and still be in business.
Isitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (11 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3500 times:
Apx 350 BAC 1-11's were built. Newly delivered ships to the USA included carriers BN, AA, Aloha and Mohawk. The most popular model seems to have been the 500 or streached version. This model was not sold in the USA.
The Caravelle's total was close to 280 but sold only 20 airplanes in the USA, all to United. TWA had 20 ordered but xcled them in either 1960 or '61 when TW had a strike and serious cash flow problems...Thank you Mr. Hughes.
Both of these planes were popular in Europe. The surprise dud was the VC10. I thought that was quite a plane but Douglas and Boeing had a lock on the long range jetliner at that time. Vickers built about 60 and some went straight to the RAF.
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
Also in my opinion I don't think that American aircraft industry would be at where it is today if it wasn't for Avro Canada cause how many workers for Boeing, Lockheed, and McDonnell Douglas came from Avro Canada after it went under.
Andz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8496 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (11 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3388 times:
According to this website's database, 244 BAC-111 were built and approximately 60 were still flying at the beginning of last year.
I flew VC-10 a couple of times in the early 70s, with Caledonian/BUA, later to become British Caledonian. I was just a kid but the thought now of flying from London to Lusaka (Zambia) on something only a little bigger than a 737-800 doesn't seem fun.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
VC745D From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 214 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (11 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3373 times:
I am going to assume that by "never took off" you mean that it never became a commercial success--as Fiedman's link and other sources have it, the C.102 did actually take off. First flight was 8-10-49 with R-R Derwent engines--two weeks after the Comet 1 (ff 7-27-49). (The Derwents were apparently considered primitive, with short life and high fuel burn, and Avro was looking for newer engines such as those used on the Comet, which were deHavilland Ghost turbojets.)
Some sources count the Vickers Nene-Viking as the first jet designed as a civil transport--a Vickers Viking with two R-R Nene t/j's. First flew 4-6-48.
Also interesting is the Vickers Tay-Viscount--an early Viscount with two R-R Tay turbojets, ff 1950.
Slawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3803 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (11 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3267 times:
The reason the Avro was powered by the Derwent engines is because when the british saw the AVRO design they refused to supply Canada with the original RR's that would have seen the Jetliner fly with two engines rather then four. That change resulted in the loss of the TCA order for the aircraft, and thats when AVRO went to the US and TWA/NATIONAL for orders. It flew the worlds first commercial jet airmail service between Toronot and New York. But with the outbreak of the Korean war production was stopped in favour of ramped up CF-100 production. Although not a success, it did give the world the term "JETLINER"....I do think, though, that had production and development continued the commercial aircraft industry would be vastly different then it is today...the jetliner was years ahead of the 707, and would have resulted in a number of varients, and probably a pretty big family of aircraft.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
CanadianNorth From Canada, joined Aug 2002, 3406 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (11 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3220 times:
From what i know it had a layout similar to the Comet, and came out around the same time. A few airlines in north america looked rather close at it but didnt take. Compared to the props of the same size it had high operating costs, fairly short range, the market wasnt all that ready for it and some of the problems with the early Comet aircraft scared people away from the C102 JetLiner. It did look like it woulda a half decent aircraft if it ever got going...