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New International Service From DTW?  
User currently offlineMEA321 From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 389 posts, RR: 15
Posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5482 times:

In the past DTW has seen many foreign and domestic airlines provide international service to Asian and European destinations. The latest being Lufthansa which now provides daily A340 service to FRA.

Is there any potential for another European/Asian airline to make it in DTW? I am thinking alongs the lines of AF, AZ, SR, or SK.

Also for anyone who knows...BA has been downgrading lately, and LH has been upgrading their service to DTW. Any thoughts about that? Remember that BA used to fly to DTW with a 744, then 777, now its a 763 and its only 5 times a week.


MEA321
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineElectraBob From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 931 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5439 times:

BA is currently flying the 777 into DTW daily -- service was upgraded from the 763 in late October.


Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.....
User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 2, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5442 times:

It depends on the time of year and the loads. In the early 90's I saw the "rare"
British DC 10 at DTW. The Brits mix it up pretty good.
I saw LH in there using 747 or A340's last summer. Take your pick. They use the new NW terminal and BA uses the old international building.
KLM has used MD 11's but mostly 747's, two models.



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineNeilalp From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1034 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5397 times:

There was an article last week or so about how NWA has a big say in any new airlines coming to DTW. Since NW put so much money into the new terminal and such, Wayne County lost a lot of say. But then NWA put out a follow up article stating this was untrue, so I'm not sure who to believe.

I couldn't find the original article but here is the follow up.
http://www.freep.com/voices/letters/enwa11_20040211.htm


User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2076 posts, RR: 36
Reply 4, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5385 times:

ElectraBob, I heard that BA is dissappointed by the lack of revenue DTW is generating along with DFW and I believe it was BWI. Do you know anything about that?
BTW, it says you are a Michigan fan, good win today over Wisky. It leaves the rest of the B10 for Illinois! Big thumbs up


User currently offlineMEA321 From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 389 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5341 times:

It would seem that LH is generating a lot of passengers because of the auto manufacturing ties that Diamler Chrysler has with Mercedes.


MEA321
User currently offlineElectraBob From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 931 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5280 times:

LambertMan --

Don't know about the revenue out of DTW on BA ... there are members on this forum who have that sort of info...hopefully, one of them will respond.

Yes, big Michigan fan, but mostly for the team that plays in Sept, Oct, Nov and Jan 1.  Smile Been watching the rebuilding of the basketball program....nice progress, but still a long, long way to go.



Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.....
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5270 times:

There's no question that BA is disappointed with DFW. AA is flying two daily DFW-LGW runs, and adds a third flight three days per week. There's no doubt this is cutting into BA's margins, but any hint of AA cutting back to protect BA would raise serious antitrust questions.


"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 48
Reply 8, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5254 times:
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The BA 767 was recently upgraded (last year) to the 777, for the lean Winter Season I would not be surprised if they at times used the 767 when the loads were light. The one problem for BA is having to use the old Barry Terminal, I know they had the chance to move there operations over to the new NW midfield terminal and BA so far has not been able to reach an agreement.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5249 times:

I saw the BA B777 in DTW yesterday and last week...it's certainly going strong.

Would be nice to see even more heavies there  Big thumbs up

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineIndustrialPate From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5220 times:

Neilalp,
The article written by Rajiv Vyas (both an airliners.net member & an idiot) was a work of exaggeration and fabrication. As I wrote in the thread on the topic, NW signed an agreement with DTW in 2001 that set their costs for contributions to the renovated North Terminal. Under the agreement, if DTW expects NW to contribute more, they have to consult them. This agreement was a necessity for NW considering the costs of the project have increased well over 50%... NW’s response to the Free Press the next day reiterated what I wrote. And FWIW, more than $2 billion has been spent on DTW in the past decade, and much of that came out of NW’s pocket. The reality is that the new terminals would have never happened had it not been for NW… if AA or DL had been hubbing in DTW, they would’ve likely renovated the old Barry Terminal.


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5213 times:

DTW is high on AF's list along with DEN and SEA. I am sure one day they will fly to DTW.

BA stopped flying 763s on transatlantic flights. That's why the flight is now on 777s. Loads probably improved too......

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 48
Reply 12, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5154 times:
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The 767 still does flights across the pond, just look at the flights to BWI, the 767 at times still show up in DTW as well.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineIndustrialPate From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5148 times:

In the 1990s, DTW was constrained & realistically could not handle more international traffic without terminal improvements:

In the end, NW was operating four flights to Asia (NRT, KIX, NGO, PEK/PVG - all B744) and ten to Europe (5xAMS, 2xLGW, CDG, FRA, FCO - all DC10, a flight to LGW would sometimes operate as a B742). BA was operating a daily B744 (rumored to go ten times weekly summer 2002) to LHR, LH a B744 to FRA and a slew of charter airlines were operating a full slate of flights to a variety of domestic and international (including TZ occasionally to Europe) destinations. (Royal Jordanian announced service in 2001, but the flight arrived/departed too late to impact other scheduled services)

This put tremendous strain on the six-gate Barry Terminal, as well as NW’s concourses within the L.C. Smith/Barry Terminals. DTW was a strong contender for AF’s services, but lost out year-after-year; congestion (including lack of spacing for clubs) played a strong role as to why.

Within the NW camp, MSP-NRT went double-daily and MSP-HKG was cancelled. NW claimed that once their new terminal at DTW opened up, that airport would see the second NRT (which it did) and inaugurate HKG. In addition, NW had applied for additional frequencies for PEK/PVG… had they got them, they would’ve been split between MSP/DTW until the new terminal opened. Additional European services (seasonal DUB/SNN, GLA, MAD and year-round MAN, MUC) would also be considered once the new terminal opened.

The reality was that DTW wasn’t efficiently able to handle the traffic it was being given… Concourse F could only handle two simultaneously B747 departures (both within two feet of each other) – or three, but two additional gates could not be used since no aircraft could reach them. The two B747, DC-10 and narrowbodies would also thrown 1,500+ people into a concourse that was designed to handle maybe a third of that.

DTW could’ve solved a lot of its problems had it built what was once proposed in the early 1990s: a new international terminal. Had NW/DTW worked together to find a new temporary regional terminal so that they could demolish & replace the temporary G terminal with a new international terminal, many of their problems would’ve been alleviated. The new international terminal with new check-ins would’ve completed a large portion of the North Terminal project while keeping OAL other than NW from the WorldGateway. The new international terminal, renovations (many which didn’t occur until 1998) and increased food concessions (there never was a food court) would’ve removed the ‘gates of hell’ tag from DTW

The problem has never been NW; it’s been Wayne County controlling the airport.


User currently offlineMEA321 From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 389 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5130 times:

BA is still operating the B763 to its east cost destinations occasionally (BOS, JFK, BWI).

Does anyone know when BA stopped their DTW-YUL-LHR service?

Neilalp,

That article you posted is very good! I do believe that NW is involved in the decisions that go on in DTW. The DTW-CDG service is badly in need of an upgrade. NW's DC-10s look horrible from the inside. I feel sorry for the passengers flying this route. If AF comes into DTW they could pull a lot of passengers from NW. Given the choice, a lot of people would not turn down AF over NW. Most travelers are reluctant to switch airlines just to try something new. But AF has a very good reputation for service and comfort. This plays a big role when travelers choose to fly transatlantic.



MEA321
User currently offlineHMOMX From Mexico, joined Jun 2001, 55 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5121 times:

Not exactly from Europe, but AeroMexico will start serving DTW from HMO and MTY in late spring/early summer. Both in 737NG and 757's depending on load factors.

User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 48
Reply 16, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5111 times:
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IndustrialPate, once again is 110% correct. I use to work for a local tour operator, and it was not unusual on the weekend to be held on an incoming plane for an hour or two because of the congestion at the International terminal and customs. It was a problem of DTW not keeping pace with the growth and increase of International flights.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineIndustrialPate From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5090 times:

RE: British Airways at DTW

BA was flying a daily B744 with plans/rumors for three additional weekly frequencies (with either the B763 or B777) up until 9-11. Since then, the flight operated as a B763 until it was upgraded to a B777 last fall.

Is BA struggling at DTW? I don’t know. However, I do know that when the flight operated as a B763, DTW’s fares to LHR were comparable with those from the West Coast, not the Midwest/East Coast. In addition, DTW was one of only two markets excluded from two BA sale promotions. Many Business and First Class tickets allow transfers on OAL to other BA gateways.

NW has long been notorious for cutting capacity to manipulate yields. IMO, I think BA was playing their game as well. While I will never maintain DTW is a “cash cow” for BA, I believe the route either broke even or made a little money…

You’ll never convince me the DTW-LON market went from a B742, DC10, B744 and plans for three more weekly B763/B777 to just a DC10 and B763 in a year, even in spite of 9-11…

- - -

I do believe that NW is involved in the decisions that go on in DTW.
Unless it involves there own terminal, they’re not. Can you provide any real evidence to suggest they are?

The DTW-CDG service is badly in need of an upgrade. NW's DC-10s look horrible from the inside. I feel sorry for the passengers flying this route.
The route will be operated with an A333 within weeks. And have you ever flown an NW DC-10-30 (not -40)? The aircraft are comparable to AA B767 and DL B767 on the inside… they have new, modern interiors and don’t look “old.” I highly doubt an average person would be able to tell the difference between an NW DC10, KL MD11, etc.

But AF has a very good reputation for service and comfort.
They do?

This plays a big role when travelers choose to fly transatlantic.
NW reputation isn't as horrible as you make it out to be. NW also controls numerous corporate contracts within the Detroit-area, largely b/c of discounts given across their extensive n/s network...


User currently offlineDTW757 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1565 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5056 times:

DTW-CDG

The route will be operated with an A333 within weeks.

NW has April 4 on the latest timetable that 330 service will begin for this flight.



721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,388,146,CR2,7,ERJ,
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 48
Reply 19, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5052 times:
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The BA service does very well as BA provides tickets to numerous local consolidators/bucket shops for cities beyond LHR. BA get paid for all of these tickets in cash as the consolidator/bucket shops eats the credit card charges. Also the 747 was cut well before 9-11 once BA dropped the Montreal stop, the plane went from a 747 to a 777 and then became a 767, until recently going back to the 777


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineMEA321 From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 389 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5045 times:

IndustrialPate,

Air France has a VERY good reputation among its passengers for IFE, service, and comfort. They are very comparable to LH, BA, and SK. Ask anyone else that has flown DL, AA, NW, and/or AF and they will tell you the same.

I have flown once with NW transatlantic and that was my last time. I fly LH out of DTW now and I am very satisfied with them. If NW keeps it up they will be on the level of the more reputable airlines. NW just recently got thier act together and purchased themselves a decent aircraft with a respectable interior. We are all glad to see this, and for NW it was a very good move (and about time...).



MEA321
User currently offlineDTW757 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1565 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5019 times:

I have flown once with NW transatlantic and that was my last time.

I guess that's too bad for you. I had great service onboard the new A330 from DTW-FRA-DTW late last year. I know I'll be using NW again for my transAtlantic travel.




721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,388,146,CR2,7,ERJ,
User currently offlineMEA321 From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 389 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4981 times:

DTW757,

As I said, it is very good that NW got their act together. They will win back customers. Back in the late 90's and up until 2002 NW was becoming less and less popular especially when LH began service to DTW. I wish NW all the luck in the future, they are one of the few standing (dinosaur) airlines thats surviving in this industry.

I didn't rule out NW in the future, I just used that statement to show you how bad they were in the past....



MEA321
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7410 posts, RR: 50
Reply 23, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4953 times:
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But you just said that your only trip would be your last on NW.


Made from jets!
User currently offlineIndustrialPate From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (10 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4956 times:

Air France has a VERY good reputation among its passengers for IFE, service, and comfort. They are very comparable to LH, BA, and SK. Ask anyone else that has flown DL, AA, NW, and/or AF and they will tell you the same.

I have flown on all of the carriers you mentioned except SK. I find that BA and AA offer a superb in-flight experience to AF; the others are are marginally comparable.

I fly LH out of DTW now and I am very satisfied with them. If NW keeps it up they will be on the level of the more reputable airlines…

And I often fly NW (as well as several other carriers) and I am very satisfied with them I’m not going to compare premium cabins, but I find NW’s Economy to be comparable to LH’s. NW’s DC-10 have modern, professional-looking interiors… the LH aircraft I have flown on looked like they were a ride at Walt Disney World. LH doesn’t offer PTVs, nor would’ve AF with the B763 they had planned to service DTW with, so entertainment options are comparable (although NW now flies the A333 to FRA, which offers superior entertainment options in Y to LH's A343/B744). Food generally is a hit-or-miss, but I find that NW’s portions are more filling. NW is one of only two USA-based carriers still serving complementary alcohol. And I can honestly say that I’ve had terrific flight crews on most of the flights I’ve been on all-time, regardless of carrier. I enjoy diversity rather than complaining that, say the Brazilians don’t do it the Japanese way...

And I think it’s ridiculous to insist that new equipment dictates service. I highly doubt the average person comprehends that NW’s DC-10-30 can be much older than the equipment other airlines are using… they have NEW interiors that don’t show their age. The DC-10-40 were a different story…

BTW, it seems like you believe that EU airlines are superior to USA-based airlines. That’s your preference. I am very proud of the facet that air transportation is affordable within my country – from DTW I can get a ticket to LAX for $69-$109 each way virtually anytime (including walk-ups). And I get wonderful FF travel benefits! Recently the majors were offering $79 fares on flagship NYC-LAX/SFO flights and offering free tickets anywhere in the world with purchase of 2RT. Travelers also got valuable FF miles/perks. Meanwhile, Canadians creamed their pants when WestJet’s entry into YUL a year ago meant that they could travel transcontinental for US$299+ each way (and that's before Canadain taxes rape them)… not to mention the LCC within the USA offer plenty of perks as well as low-fares and fly to airports/cities people want to go to.

[Edited 2004-02-23 02:20:08]

25 MEA321 : IndustrialPate, And I think it’s ridiculous to insist that new equipment dictates service. So do I... BTW, it seems like you believe that EU airline
26 IndustrialPate : MEA321, First off it’s important to understand that NW’s percentage of O/D traffic at DTW is about 50% -- that’s smaller than it is at both MSP
27 AIR757200 : I think the DTW BA route has fairly good premium yield. I don't have any numbers so I'm not talking on conditions of having hard facts, however, I wa
28 TriJetFan1 : Hey, if BA is disappointed w/ DTW, they should go to CLE!!!
29 Maiznblu_757 : i remember the days BA had the 744 DTW-YMX-LHR...
30 IndustrialPate : AIR757200, Than you - that was one of my points, BA premium tickets ex-DTW allowed trasnfers (e.g. for those who don't know, DTW-NYC-YY-LHR-BA -- whic
31 MAH4546 : BA is still operating the B763 to its east cost destinations occasionally (BOS, JFK, BWI). BOS does not see any BA 763s. JFK sees a daily BA 763, but
32 AIR757200 : MAH4546, I pulled up the 2/9 press release again, reread it, and DTW-ORD is codeshare, sorry. With all the "and" statements, I must of just meshed it
33 MEA321 : The BA service a few years ago was DTW-YUL/YMX-LHR. Does anybody remember which one they stopped at? YMX or YUL? Also, does anybody know if NW is stil
34 EddieDude : It is great news that AM is going back to DTW. The HMO-DTW flight will keep Ford execs pretty happy now that the Hermosillo plant is scheduled to star
35 NWAFA : MEA, I truly doubt if AF would come to DTW. With NWA coming into Skyteam this year, it just does not make sense for them to fly into DTW or MSP. NWA w
36 DTW757 : Also, does anybody know if NW is still going ahead with its proposed route to FCO? And if so, when it starts and the frequency? Looks like NW 66 begin
37 Luv2fly : The Montreal service was to the airport that had the mobile lounges? I flew BA once to Montreal and that is the thing that stood out in my mind, not w
38 AIR757200 : I thought DTW-FCO was only a seasonal route.
39 Dc8jet : Over the road leading to the new terminal at DTW there is a sign listing the airlines that serve the terminal. One of the airlines listed is Air China
40 Jafa : Air China is listed on the airport signs becasue they were/are a code share partner of NW. Just like NW/KLM is listed at all domestic airports that wo
41 DTW757 : I thought DTW-FCO was only a seasonal route. I think you're right on that, according to the schedule the FCO service begins in May and it looks like
42 Dtwintlflyer : Why would AF not fly into DTW?.....I see the SkyTeam working like this.... NW using CDG and AMS as connecting points for different parts of Europe (AM
43 Post contains links and images Oerk : Hmmm, I really would like to see this modern interior on the NW DC-10-30. Only pics I can find show the modern DC-10-30 interior to be remarkably simi
44 HlywdCatft : I remember reading an Air Jamaica article in either Airliner World Magazine or Airways where the CEO said that Detroit was one of the next spots he wa
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