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ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.  
User currently offlineTimberwolf24 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 574 posts, RR: 1
Posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3011 times:

This was on the employees web site;


ATA Airlines Drops SFO-EWR Flights — Effective March 15, 2004 ATA will no longer fly between SFO and EWR airports. When we started flying this route at the end of October 2003 there were 24 transcontinental flights from SFO airports to New York airports. After our entry in that market, the total number of flights grew to 35. This explosive growth dramatically impacted our load factors and the price per seat on this flight dropped to $79. Additionally, we will soon have access to four more gates at MDW which will allow us to better deploy our aircraft and assets into MDW markets.


Living in LA, ORD/MDW will always be home!
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineN670UW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1602 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2984 times:

Very interesting. Looks like CO and UA gave them a run for their money.

Also interesting that CO is running eight EWR-SFO, while only five EWR-LAX, which is traditionally a larger market.


670

[Edited 2004-02-24 21:06:20]

User currently onlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4467 posts, RR: 34
Reply 2, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2923 times:

Not too surprising. ATA is not a major player in the New York area, and eight CO dailies to the Bay area is very suspicious. DOJ should probably investigate. Figure, too, that if Uncle Gordon has entertainingly apoplectic fits about JetBlue across the river, he couldn't have been too happy about ATA at his EWR hub, either.

Now watch those CO dailies to the Bay Area drop off in the next few months, and the fares go up.

Jim


User currently offlineAAJAXFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2911 times:

DOJ should probably investigate

They should investigate any time an airline increases flights to compete, eh, Jim?  Innocent


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32176 posts, RR: 72
Reply 4, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2882 times:

Saturday-only San Francsico-LaGuardia service is also coming to an end.


a.
User currently offlineCory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2686 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2879 times:

I'm not surprised this happened. I was wondering how long they were going to offer those flights and low fares while still making a profit. I know CO was very worried about this new service - watch those 8 flights daily drop to 4 and the last minute fare go from $400 to $1400.

User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2792 times:

Investigate? What for?

Competition from established vendors against new entrants happens in a free market. From farms to grocery stores to banks and airlines, this is what's known as competition.

ATA isn't being forced not to fly these routes. They haven't even really competed that hard. No one else has undercut ATA, although they've matched price.

Any investigation should be of ATA's management -- the "what the heck did you THINK was going to happen, moron?" investigation.

Steve


User currently offlineCory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2686 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2775 times:

Good point. I'd like to know if ATA really thought they could compete with CO on a route such as that - it's really a important route for CO, and they have the resources to match prices and flood them with seats, all while providing more services (meals, lounges, F class, etc.) than ATA can't.

User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2746 times:

IMHO - I believe ALL airlines need to research any route before they start them up. Also like others have pointed out, CO was protecting its territory and it is no different than what any other company would do. I am sure to some extent CO is losing passengers to B6 at JFk and now WN will be right around the corner in PHL, so ATA/TZ decides to set up shop in your backyard, what would you do?


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineCory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2686 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2723 times:

I believe that the major market where CO is losing customers to B6 is on the NYC-Florida routes. B6 hasn't really encroached upon much else of CO's territory - not everyone is willing to go to LGB or ONT instead of LAX, and many of B6's flights are red-eye and/or once-daily only - DEN, MSY, SLC, SEA come to mind - whereas CO offers multiple flights at different times of the day.

User currently offlineJjbiv From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1226 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2717 times:

Other carriers increased capacity in the market by nearly 50%. Whether you dismiss that as mere competition or view it as predatory, an increase of that magnitude is not a reasonable or logical competitive response; hardly anything management could have predicted. SFO-NYC was a good market and will be a good market again as soon as the LCC drops out. Unfortunately, the real losers are consumers who will once again be subjected to increased fares and reduced options. That is hardly the outcome of competition, rather a typical case of consumers loosing sight of what is truly driving the market they cherish (LCC presence) and whoring out to the "most competitive" (i.e. he who is bleeding the most to serve the customer) carrier. If you think CO & Co. will continue their present behavior once ATA is out, you're sadly mistaken.

Moral of the story: support the LCC on the routes you fly if you value their market presence.

joe


User currently offlineCory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2686 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2707 times:

It's unfortunate that there is now a lack of competition (as I'm sure UA and CO aren't going to try to undercut one another with fares), but did ATA really think that they could run these flights while CO and UA just sit back and watch their money go down the drain?

User currently offlineWmupilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 1473 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2702 times:

We knew full well going into these flights that we were going to be fighting an up hill battle. Especially coming into CO territory and knew that they weren't going to be too happy about that.


JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
User currently offlineAAJAXFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2686 times:

Continental simply expanded capacity to meet the extra demand that ATA generated. It's ATA's fault for lowering the fare and generating that much extra demand.  Smile

User currently offlineJjbiv From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1226 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2624 times:

The only problem with that argument is that CO's costs are higher than TZ's, thus if they were being truly competitive in a perfect market (earning an equal profit), their fares would have to be higher as well. Of course, profit can go by the wayside and you can take a loss in one market if you view it as being necessary to defending your other markets out of a fortress hub  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Different views for different folks.

joe


User currently onlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4467 posts, RR: 34
Reply 15, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2581 times:

That is hardly the outcome of competition, rather a typical case of consumers loosing sight of what is truly driving the market they cherish (LCC presence) and whoring out to the "most competitive" (i.e. he who is bleeding the most to serve the customer) carrier. If you think CO & Co. will continue their present behavior once ATA is out, you're sadly mistaken.

Exactly. As I said before, watch over the next few months..CO will reduce capacity, and hike fares. We can be pretty sure that CO wasn't making money on such a large capacity increase. That's not competition, it's predation, and it smells like lav tank after a transcon flight.

So CO is *not* "simply adding capacity to meet the extra demand ATA generated." That's just rationalization.

They should investigate any time an airline increases flights to compete, eh, Jim?

If a Cartel-network carrier increases capacity on a route that an LCC has newly entered and dropped fares (and thus yields) through the floor, and the result is that the LCC can't make money and pulls out, you bet DOJ should investigate. Every time. That's the one way the network carriers get the message.  Smile

Don't like it? Don't have to. Just keeping free markets open and free.

Jim


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16934 posts, RR: 48
Reply 16, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2552 times:

"Other carriers increased capacity in the market by nearly 50%. Whether you dismiss that as mere competition or view it as predatory, an increase of that magnitude is not a reasonable or logical competitive response; hardly anything management could have predicted. "

Only if 'management' was born yesterday.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2388 times:

Only if 'management' was born yesterday.

How true, how true.

jetBlue has shown that if you show a little perseverence, if the competition really can't hang, then you will will out -- witness JFK-OAK, for example. I'm really disappointed that ATA has instead done a 'hit and run' on this route.

But really, you take a high-yield, flagship route -- and you don't think people are going to match your price and increase capacity? Seriously.

Steve


User currently offlineWmupilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 1473 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2314 times:

The average loads on the transcon flights where 45 out of 175. Not very smart to stay on that route. We may have a low CASM but it's not that low. From what i've heard the only reason they kept the flights was because of the cargo they were now able to carry. On average the cargo/mail load was 5000-6000lbs.


JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
User currently offlineATA767 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 419 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2154 times:

It was a smart move at a bad time. I am dissapointed that they did not hang in there at least till after spring break.

User currently offlineAAJAXFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2072 times:

Obviously most of this behavior is acceptable, otherwise I'm sure the DOJ would investigate and more politicians would jump on board, to be seen as fighting for airfare salvation for their constituents. Deregulation was born out of a vote-grabbing exercise by Ted Kennedy (and to get peoples minds off of him, women, cars, and water).

User currently offlineWmupilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 1473 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2026 times:

It's just competition. ATA knew going into this what CO's response would be. They don't want us treding on their territory. EWR's there hub. How did you think they would respond? Just sit around and let us do our thing? Look what US and WN are doing. It's competition and now the Legacy carriers are finally starting to put their foot down and stand up to the LCC's. Granted I work for ATA but i'm glad the two groups are fighting. There are good results for the passengers. Sometimes the LCC's win and sometimes the Legecy carriers win. It's the name of the game. This time the Legecy carrier won, but that is just the battle. The outcome of the war has yet to be decided and may not for quite some time yet.


JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
User currently offlineCoTXDFW777AA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 321 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1929 times:

And that war better end in the same way.

-COTXDFW777AA



Texas- it's like a whole different country!
User currently offlineATA767 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 419 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1777 times:

ATA's Saturday only service from LGA-SFO is not ending by the way. MAH4546 where did you get that miss-information?

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