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The Future Of Latin America  
User currently offlineLeoDF From Mexico, joined Aug 1999, 359 posts, RR: 5
Posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 19407 times:

Hello!

I was reading yesterday an article about Lloyd Aereo Boliviano (LAB) where its Mexican Regional Manager talked a bit about their future plans. Included were the arrival of their 3rd and 4th 767's, along with new services to Mexico City. What I understood is that they were going to offer 2 flights, one on the morning and the other at night. And that soon they will upgrade their equipment as well and were trying to do so for Cancun as well.

I also read about Avianca's probable purchase by Continental or at least a bid, that Lan Chile also made but was far too low.

So, this kept me thinking. South America will sooner or later end up with few airlines controlling the market.

1) Lan Chile: for excellence the biggest and most known airline of the region. They own subsidiaries in Peru and Ecuador and have tried to start one in Bolivia and Argentina. And of course, wanted to take over Avianca. No real competition menaces this airline, for the countries where it has airlines have no other airlines, or insignificant and troublesome ones!

2) Aerolineas Argentinas: after being purchased by Air Plus Comet, they had their second chance. They are growing again, with their very first 747-400. I also think few competition is encountered by this airline in Argentina. Southern Winds was doing well, but then shrank or disappeared, don't know, same as LAPA.

3) Varig: recovering. Maybe the proposed merger with TAM would do both of them good. But at the same time, competition has made them open their eyes and start really doing their business. After all, that's what competition is all about, lowering costs, offering good service and become profitable.

4) LAB: encountering good competition from Aerosur that has become an international airline. Anyways, LAB is growing and is growing fast. Considering it comes from the 2nd poorest if not the poorest country in South America, their recovery after being taken over by Bolivian businessmen has been spectacular. And their future plans call for even better times. Competition has also made them better I suppose.

5) TAM: good strategy. With TAM Mercosur controls passengers in Paraguay, which lacks a national airline. Also has been growing a lot, since its fleet of Fokker 100's.

6) Avianca: near death?

7) Avensa: ???? I have no idea! The biggest in Venezuela. But have no idea of their future plans. I heard or read that maybe Viasa returned. If so, this would put Avensa in a difficult situation, after a long time without real competition.

So, if we put it this way:

The really big ones and powerful in South America are:
Lan Chile (Europe, Australia, America)
Aerolineas Argentinas (recovering) (Europe, Australia)
LAB (starting in Europe with once weekly to Madrid, America)
TAM (Europe)
Varig (Europe, USA)

Will South America end up with only these airlines? Lan Chile will probably end up with an affiliate airline in each and every country throughout S. America!

I guess these are the strongest and probably the most likely to survive.

What do you think?
Saludos!

A. De Leo
"PiloT"


Lloyd Aereo Boliviano
258 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32620 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 19020 times:

The really big ones and powerful in South America are:
Lan Chile (Europe, Australia, America)
Aerolineas Argentinas (recovering) (Europe, Australia)
LAB (starting in Europe with once weekly to Madrid, America)
TAM (Europe)
Varig (Europe, USA)


Varig also flies to Asia (Tokyo) and starts South Africa (JNB) in April. TAM also flies to America, with daily service to Miami. Starting in May, they will have double-daily service to Miami, including non-stops between Miami and Salvador da Bahia. Aerolineas Argentinas also flies to America, with service to Miami and JFK.



a.
User currently offlineChepos From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2000, 6207 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 18980 times:

Southern Winds is still around and they are flying between EZE and MIA & MAD, and concerning Venezuela - I would say Aeropostal is the largest carrier in Venezuela.
Chepos



Fly the Flag!!!!
User currently offlineSOUTHAMERICA From Colombia, joined Dec 2003, 2497 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 18952 times:

Avianca: near death?

Well, in some form, yes. But they are still operating normally and waiting for the eventual investor.


Avensa: ???? I have no idea! The biggest in Venezuela. But have no idea of their future plans. I heard or read that maybe Viasa returned. If so, this would put Avensa in a difficult situation, after a long time without real competition.

Avensa couldn't be further from being that. Anyways, as Chepos said, the dominant player in Venezuela is Aeropostal, followed by Aserca and Santa Barbara.



Add to the list..

Avianca (Europe and America) (They also currently own a larger, younger fleet and network than LAB)


SOUTHAMERICA


User currently offlineSoAmSky From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 18923 times:

"The Future of Latin America" is the name of this thread; however, no mention of Aeromexico, Mexicana, Grupo Taca, copa that are part of Latin America. You just focused on South America. So, what should we discuss here, Latin America or just South America airline future?


Soar the blue of the South American Sky
User currently offlineLeoDF From Mexico, joined Aug 1999, 359 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 18897 times:

Sorry, my mistake SoAmSky! It should have been The Future of South America.

Love's got me stupid!

A. De Leo



Lloyd Aereo Boliviano
User currently offlineYV136C From Venezuela, joined Mar 2003, 198 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 18887 times:



Indeed, Avensa is good as gone! Aeropostal has the leading role in VEN.

Luis



Proud to work for Embraer FLL!
User currently offlineFMAL From Brazil, joined Jan 2004, 486 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 18869 times:

Isn't Avensa already out of business, and has been for some time now?

I don't see LanChile getting an affiliate here in Brazil any time soon. I mean, never say never, but Brazil already has Varig, who is indeed the largest airline in Latin America and perhaps the best known (and not LanChile), and TAM, the up and coming airline who is now fading out their F-100s and replacing them with Airbus aircraft. Furthermore there's Gol, the low-cost carrier who is making money and gaining market share. So LanBrasil, not likely.

Vasp might be the next Brazilian carrier to go. LanChile has grown since it became almost the sole airline of Chile, which is now the country in the best shape in Latin America. Peru and Ecuador are small markets and didn't have a major airline, so it was relatively easy for LanChile to get into those markets. Argentina, Brazil, Mexico, etc; those are another story.

The Varig and TAM merger here in Brazil is not likely to happen, the best scenario would be the creation of a holding company that would control both airlines, who would then maintain their own identities. They are two completely different airlines, with different philosophies and history. Varig is the third oldest airline in the world (if I'm not mistaken).


User currently offlineYV136C From Venezuela, joined Mar 2003, 198 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 18866 times:

FMAL,

Avensa is operating B1900's to two or three domestic routes. That is what's left of them....

Luis
YV136C



Proud to work for Embraer FLL!
User currently offlineLeoDF From Mexico, joined Aug 1999, 359 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 18861 times:

I would like to add Central America and Mexico if you allow me.

So, in Central America we have of course:

1) TACA: leading airline. Took over NICA, AVIATECA, La Costeña, Sahsa? You see my memory today isn't at its best. Well anyways they rule Central America and are trying to infiltrate into South America with Taca Peru.

2) COPA: with the influence and capital of Continental, COPA has managed a good position within Latin America. 2nd largest of Central America of course.

Not strange that one is Airbus and the other Boeing HA! (TAM-Varig???).

Mexico:

Aeromexico and Mexicana: as rumours popped this past week about a possible merger I have no idea of what to say! The idea of forming one airline could be good in an administrative point of view (money saving, less work force, standarization of routes) and maybe in the future they would recover their work force with growth!

And others such as Aviacsa, Azteca, Aeromar and Magnicharters are, to my eyes, in a good position. They represent fierce competition to the Cintra conglomerate. But some others that I thought had come to earn a well deserved position on Mexican skies have dropped services such as Allegro and possibly in the future Aerocalifornia!

Caribbean:

A lot of little airlines. Of course some big ones as Cubana, Air Jamaica and BWIA. But I guess competition there isn't as harsh as in continental Latin America. Don't know really! Maybe someone can help me!

BTW: sorry about Aeropostal! Had forgotten all about it!!

Cheers!

A. De Leo
"PiloT"



Lloyd Aereo Boliviano
User currently offlineChepos From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2000, 6207 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 18846 times:

No one mentioned Lan Dominicana ,Lan Chile's Domincan subsidary . In the Dominican Republic there's also Air Santo Domingo (which has been flying from SDQ to SJU and JFK).
Chepos



Fly the Flag!!!!
User currently offlineMarcopolo747 From Brazil, joined Mar 2001, 460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 18829 times:

Oldest surving airline in the world is Avianca, founded in 1919 as SCADTA (Sociedad Colombo-Alemana de Transportes Aereos)- source : R.E.G. Davies, Airlines of Latin Anmerica since 1919.

Biggest SOUTH American airline in 2003 (Source ATW) was Varig that carried 9.108.000 passengers and had 22.072.448.000 RPKs. LAN Chile carried 4.495.000 passengers and RPKs were 10.301.000.000.

I don't have figures for Mexicana but I believe they are the biggest LATIN American airline in number of passengers and RPKs as well but I don't have the figures, maybe our Mexican friends ?

TAM flies a daily GRU-CDG 332 in codeshare with AF as well. It replaced most of its 100s and now flies 56 320s/319s.



User currently offlineLeoDF From Mexico, joined Aug 1999, 359 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 18820 times:

I think Marcopolo747 Varig is the biggest in Latin America. Neither Mexicana nor Aeromexico carried more than 8 million each. So Varig is still the king of the skies in Latin America!




Lloyd Aereo Boliviano
User currently offlineJj From Algeria, joined Jun 2001, 1227 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 18800 times:

As to Argentina, the situation is pretty much this: AR controls the domestic market (About 80% of the traffic is theirs), and they are making money here....

There are only two other airlines competing right now:

Southern Winds (which has been granted a subsidy to operate the airline branch of the government LAFSA 'Lineas Aeras Federales') with about 6 737's. But their situation is critical. Even though the subsidy covers all fuel costs, they still loose money on the domestic routes. They are slowly adding more destinations but few of them have daily service...

American Falcon is the other little airline, with 2 737's and 2 Fokker 28's. But they are in a similar situation, even though they do not loose as much money as SW.

LAPA and DINAR, have completely dissapeared, some of the workers have been hired by SW/Federales...

Speaking of the international market, AR has a total control of it. They are only challenged by SW on the Madrid route. I'm not sure if they are operating into Miami now, since they have now only 1 767.

But AR does not only have a total domination of the market.... they make money as well! Last year's result returned a profit of about 40 mill euros. Not bad given the current situation....

So AR is expanding it's wings. They have already received 1 A 310 and 1 747-400. The next additions to the fleet will be:

3 Boeing 747-400 (May 2004/ Jan 2005)
1 Airbus 340-200 (Jun 2004)
1 Airbus 310-300 (Oct 2004)
8 Boeing 737-500 (May/Dec 2004)
2 MD 83 (Jun/Jul 2004) - An additional one if the aircraft that lost one of it's landing gears the other day is a write off.

What AR intends to do with this is:

The Airbus and Boeing 747-400's will replace the 5 airworthy 747-200's.
The Boeing 737-500's will replace the 5 oldest 737-200's and will be used to expand the domestic/regional market.
The Md's will be used to expand the regional market.

As you can see, AR is growing again. Let's just hope they continue this way! if they do, they can certainly be a big contender in the South American market...



User currently offlineMrb757 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 31 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 18795 times:

What about TAME? I think thats an Airline in Ecuador? Any one know what's up with them? All i know is that they recently got new airbuses??? Any one know anything about TAME?

User currently offlineTBCITDG From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 921 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 18792 times:

I think that Lan would find it very hard to commence operations in Brasil or even Aregtnina for that matter. Although only time will tell.
Aerolineas Argentinas are in current talks to purchse Pluna (Uruguay) from Varig.
They have also posted their intention to begin:
Aerolineas Australes Bolivia
Aerolineas Australes Paraguay
Aerolineas Australes Uruguay
Aerolineas Australes Chile
I wonder how this will effect the local carriers?
I am not too sure as to wether they will protest or not the emergence of Lan Argentina seeing as they too would like to commence operations in Chile. Who knows?
They are also to commence regional hubs within Argentina and flights to Beijing this year (who knows?)


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32620 posts, RR: 72
Reply 16, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 18790 times:

I'm not sure if they are operating into Miami now, since they have now only 1 767.


They still fly to Miami.



a.
User currently offlineMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 869 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 18774 times:

As the Venezuelan friends have pointed out. Alas de Venezuela a corporation that bought the name Aeropostal is the largest in Venezuela. I would like to point out to some people that the Varig/TAM merger is not going to happen. They are planning on codesharing but nothing else. I know this from reliable sources within Varig. Also about Avensa, after the Boulton family was subjected to a horrendous kidnapping Servivensa collapsed. I know they still have planes, hangar space and airport space (I know in Caracas and Barquisimeto). I like LanChile, but I have spoken many times to my father, their fleet is so stretched out with Lan Dominicana/Ecuador and Peru. They need new 767's. I know they started with the A340s to NYC and LAX but this seems like a dangerous deviation from their proven business plan. About Avianca, I flew with them and they decided to change me 2 hour stop over to a 10 hour one. The horrendous service I received during that time on the ground was so humiliating that I wish the worst to Avianca. I am sorry to Colombians but Avianca can rot in hell.


"Like all great travelers, I have seen more than I remember, and remember more than I have seen."
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7561 posts, RR: 43
Reply 18, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 18754 times:

MarcoPolo747, I read an article in LatinTrade about three months ago in which it was clear that RG was the largest Latin American carrier both in terms of passengers and RPK's. AM, JJ and MX -I believe in that order- were (somewhat far) behind RG fighting for second place (too close to call) in terms of passengers and then was LA, although in terms of RPK's I think LA was second and then came the Mexican carriers and JJ. Or so I recall; unfortunately I don't have the issue with me anymore.

Now, I think LA is perhaps the airline in the best position in the region. They not only have a nice network of routes, including destinations in Europe, North America and Oceania, but also a very good reputation and a healthy balance sheet.

From what I have read and heard, RG is doing not so well, especially because of their debt and their losses. RG has always tried, I believe, to be at the forefront of the Latin American carriers in terms of fleet and destinations, and that unfortunately comes at a cost. In addition, although I have never personally experienced flying with RG, I understand they don't have consistent service. In any case, we might see them starting flights to China soon and will definitely see them going back to South Africa too (oh, and a separate thread discusses they are getting more 772's and are going to start flying them to MEx, SCL and many other destinations at least temporarily). As for JJ, I really liked them when I flew CGH-VIX-CGH with them a month ago. The Airbuses are pretty new and in great shape and service is good (I really look forward to flying MIA-GRU in JJ's business class some day); in addition, I think that although their international presence is limited, its routes and codeshare partners are very well thought (and hopefully the investment in Transportes Aéreos del Mercosur is profitable). Though RG is a much "larger" airline in terms of pax and RPK's, if the two companies merged today as it was originally planned, JJ's shareholders would end up owning almost 95% of the new company because of RG's debt, so that is just a sign that JJ is healthier and more valuable. With respect to the merger, both companies have informed the regulatory authorities in Brazil that they have decided to postpone it two years and will instead focus in furthering their codeshare partnership and in consolidating backroom activities in a 50-50 joint venture company in order to cut costs.

I did not know that LB was so ambitious. If their flight to MAD proves successful and they find a way to become an established player in the MIA-South America market, then it shall see better times. As far as I know, their flight from VVI to MEx stops in PTY and is serviced with a 722, so it would be nice if they started offering non-stop service with newer, widebody aircraft. If they do and if they indeed start CUN, they can become a viable alternative for Mexicans going to Chile, Bolivia and the Mercosur countries and viceversa, especially if they offer fares lower than those of its competitors. I don't know how good LB is in terms of service quality, but hopefully it will become a worthy competitor.

I think the ownership of AR by Grupo Marsan's has proved to be a positive thing and it is nice to see them getting 744's and starting flights to PEK (RG will follow in my opinion). Hopefully they will return to MEx and/or CUN soon... it sure will be a welcome addition to the group of airlines that can be found at MEx.

I have read here many times that AVENSA is as good as dead, but I am glad to hear that Aeropostal is doing good. I guess the current political and economic environment in Venezuela will prevent the Venezuelan aviation industry from growing, but hopefully that will change soon.

In connection with CM, I believe that the location of PTY, the attractive fares and the very smart connection system is doing wonders for CM. My friends from Santiago de Chile always fly CM to MEx since service is good and comes cheaper than AM or LA. I just feel that their all-737 fleet, although very modern, is not a good reason to fly them from PTY to destinations like GRU or EZE.

I really don't know much about TACA, except that they are doing okay and that they have good service.

And about Mexican aviation, I think it's best to refer to the thread called "Future of AeroMexico" since so many things are going on at the moment. I just hope that all these internal movements in CINTRA do not derail the aggressive expansion plans of MX and the recovery of AM. I like AM and its long-haul 767's (and the new 73W's are awesome) and I really like MX's A32x fleet, so I hope they stay independent and add new destinations in Europe and South America.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineMarcopolo747 From Brazil, joined Mar 2001, 460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 18731 times:

Amigo Eddie,

I remember some years ago MX was 1st in RPKs but such things change continously. My experiences with LA were very good but they will never play a big role because their dosmestic and regional markets are small, however they might build one by adding LAN-Peru, LAN-Ecuador, LAN-Colombia and so on. In terms of passenger numbers the big players will always be in Argentina, Brazil and Mexico.
RG will start flying its own aircraft to JNB 3x a week , 772s bought from BA, recently it added 2 M11s bought from LX.
I would say it will also start flying to PEK very soon as an extension to its NRT service for the moment.

At the moment, CM is the best option from Brazil to Central America and Caribbean with its daily 73W service to PTY where connections are easy.

JJ is flying charters to Aruba and Havana, it is rumoured that the HAV service might become a regular weekly service.





User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7561 posts, RR: 43
Reply 20, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 18700 times:

Hey Marco, nice to hear from you. How are you doing my friend?

I looked in the net for the statistics I was quoting but I was unsuccessful. All I could find was a ranking from 2001. The link is http://www.kiat.net/travel/airlines.html/ and it shows that RG was Latin America's number one in 2001 with 26 billion RPK's, then AM with 14.1 and then MX with 13.4. I guess the numbers may have moved a bit downwards during 2002 and that 2003 was overall similar to 2002.

It is interesting that JJ is considering to start scheduled service to HAV. I find it a bit strange, though, since JJ's three international flights seem to cater to a mix of business and leisure pax, whereas HAV will be a 99.9% leisure destination and that's not where the money is. To be honest, I would have expected JJ to start fliying to SCL, MAD or JFK before HAV. In any case, this would probably be the only Mercosur flight to HAV and, therefore, passenger loads should be good. Besides, the caution that JJ has demonstrated when it comes to international routes is a sign that they do not enter a market unless they are certain that it will work, so that's also a good sign. What do you think?




Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineGhost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5217 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 18662 times:

Marcopolo747,

Pax carried in 2003 by
MX: 7,873,450. Domestic: 4,942,782 International: 2,930,668
AM: 8,733,132. Domestic: 6,665,088 International: 2,068,044
TotaL: 16,606,852.

RPK's
MX: 11,531,367.
AM: 13,377,347.
TL: 24,908,714.

So with your numbers RG carried more passengers. But AM almost did the same number of passengers RG diw with a smaller fleet and less RPK's offered.

% Load factors in 2003 for MX: 63.4 vs. a 66.4 with AM.

Ricardo APM  Smile




Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
User currently offlineTBCITDG From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 921 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 18635 times:

Well said MarcoPolo;
In order for Lan to increase their peresence in South Aamerica, even the rest of the world, they will need to tap into the Argentine/Brasilian and Mexican markets, some of which are protected (at the moment) by their countries Goverments.
Even operations like Lan Dominicana, Lan Peru can only grow so much, so I am sure Lan will try to make a big push into other Latin Countries.
I have no evidence, but I get the feeling that unless they do enter other markets, Lan will stagnate in terms of growth.(obviously way down the track).
They have stated publicly their intentions of becoming Latin Americas top airline, although I think that they will find that a little hard with the likes of Varig/Mexicana.


User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6138 posts, RR: 30
Reply 23, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 18618 times:
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This thread is incredibly interesting but I believe that it is too encompassing for each of us to give an accurate portrayal of the market in SouthAmerica, plus Mexico. I will try to post what I know and what I've experienced.

I believe four conditions IN THE REGION we are discussing, are necessary for an airline to be successful

1) A solid, strong, domestic and global economy
2) Good O&D traffic
3) Good, independent, profit-oriented management
4) Geography

Now, if I measure each airline or country by each of these indicators things look clearer to me. Remember you can agree or disagree.

In the case of AM and MX as a whole and the other airlines in Mexico, things look good, but I don't think they fulfill #1 and #4 of my points. Another thing is, why the heck, in a country with over 100 million people only 20 million a year or so use air transport? This is a huge, untapped market that is overlooked and is the result of one of the worst income distributions in the world. But I would suggest to go with EddiDude's (I believe) advice, and go to the thread "future of Aeromexico."

Central America is a gamble. They have no #2, and marginal #1 at best. I'll give them points for #3 and number #4. In general TACA has incosistent service at best, while I believe CM has reached the limit of its growth.

Colombia, well, #1 seems to be ok, #2 also, #3, lousy, and #4 has no impact whatsoever. I remember a comment where someone mention AVIANCA can rot in hell. Well, I wouldn't put it in those words, but one time in 2000, they stranded me in the middle of the summer in Barranquilla airport for 6 hours. If it wasn't for the lack of, well, everything (refreshments, food, etc) and the bats flying around inside the terminal it probably would not have been so bad...How's that for service? Continental is taking a huge risk with this investment.

Venezuela, not much to say there. I'll be surprised if any airline survives after the current problems the country is going through. So for now it can be ignored

About Ecuador. It has similar problems to Venezuela, plus TAME has a tendency to crash often. Wouldn't fly them if it was for free. I believe we can ignore them too for now.

Bolivia is very interesting. LB is a basic, few frills airline, with good service, clean, safe and well maintained planes, the pilots are the best in the region and their fleet renovation program is making sense. They have a good strategy and have been stable and well managed for years.They might very well become a force to be reckoned with if the government sorts itself out and if the GNP starts growing from the paltry 9 Billion USD/year. Geographically they could not be in a better position in South America. Funny they don't see that, they insist on destabilizing themselves politically for want of a lost coastline.

Argentina is an interesting case. It could go both ways. AR could continue to grow and thrive or it will crash and burn again. As MarcoPolo has said, Mexico, Argentina and Brazil are a different story. The problem with Argentina is that they are not out of the woods yet. And the reason they are having such a strong recovery is that they have suspended payments on their debt. This has created a bubble, and a fake recovery. We know what happens to bubbles. What will happen when Argentina finally needs to start paying its debts? AR is constantly fearing that its planes will get impounded. However, with a control of 80% of the domestic market I guess that's a cashcow. I have no idea about service. Last flew them EZE-MX), Mexico">MEX, 747-287 in 94 in F and it was a disaster. Southern Winds is just (now) a government populist contraption and is just being kept around so people can say there's "competition" I wonder what happened with LADE? Anybody knows? In conclusion, Argentina's future to me is 60% they implode and 40% they make it.

In Chile I believe everything has been said here.. Yes, Lan is a great airline, outstandingly well managed, and all that, etc..I just think that the country needs to keep its growth rate on its economy constantly moving up, because their O&D traffic is not the best. And yes, surprise, Chile has a strong problem on the income distribution side. That's a strong weakness.

It's hard to find anything to say about Brasil. They have everything to have one of the greatest airlines in the world. And I believe they actually do. The problem on RG is management. Maybe because it's a foundation and not primarily profit-oriented it's been managed badly for years and years. I flew RG in '99 on their 743, C class on the upperdeck GRU-MIA and many other domestics on the 737-300's. I was not impressed with the service. Domestically, however, I think they are very strong. I never had trouble finding a flight to anywhere, Salvador, Araripina, Ilheus, Recife, etc. And the Ponte-Aereo is a cashcow. If they could better their service a little bit and get better managed, forget about LanChile, RG would be the airline to watch. I agree with others, VASP is in its death throes, and JJ, well, they were great. I think, though when their owner, founder and real talent in the company died, things went downhill. I'm skeptical in the long term for them.

Peru's civil aviation has been a mess for years and years. Aeroperu was killed in '72, I think, then revived again in '78? then died again in '89 until AM came and got it going again (and sacked it with Prevoisin laughing all the way to the bank) I don't know if Faucett is still around or AeroContinente. But the whole aviation scene there has been a mess for years, so I can't find much to say about them.

There. My two cents. this started kind of very structured, but then sort of lost that. I hope you all can read it.

AR385




MGGS
User currently offlineFMAL From Brazil, joined Jan 2004, 486 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 18524 times:

I agree with AR385. The major problem Varig had was management. It seems that things now are a little different. The thing with Varig is that for a very long while, they were the sole airline in Brazil. There was Vasp and Transbrasil, but they never came close to Varig. Varig was at one point, a billion dollar a year airline, net profits. Then came deregulation, and they never adapted. So Varig had a huge staff, all with tons of benefits (people said it was great to work for Varig) because they never had to worry about that, the Air Shuttle alone paid for everything. Things changed, and they never adapted, so they almost went broke.

Now, given the current situation in Brazil, and how disappointing this government is, I doubt that they would let Varig shut down. They are now way clear of that, renegotiating debts and doing well (the operation is already profitable again). Should they emerge, with some help, from their situation, Varig is the airline to be reckoned with. As well they should be.

LanChile is an admirable airline. I never flew them, but sure have the curiosity and the desire to do so. Their livery is, in my opinion, the best one around anywhere in the world. But Chile is a small country, and as was said before, an economic turn around in Chile (unlikely as it may seem) could change their scenario pretty quickly. But they seem to have a solid business plan, and are carrying it out and so far, its working.

I think the same goes to Argentina. Should the economy stall again, who knows what happens to Aerolineas?

The pattern seems to be, the continent and the local economies can only hold one, two profitable airlines, tops. They just don't have enough traffic to handle many airlines in one country. Brazil, the largest of all Latin American countries, can't handle more then 3 airlines, but the general opinion is that two "big" ones is more then enough, 3 is already a strecht.


25 LeoDF : Thank you AR385! I sure did find it interesting. This region has a lot of potential! The problem or question is the future. Thank you all for your com
26 123 : In post 18 it is mentioned that LB should upgrade aircraft to MEX. Before entering MIA/EZE/GRU/MAD with their 767's, LB flew into MEX with 767 nonstop
27 FMAL : I think the currency factor is a major player in the poor financial conditions of Latin American aircraft. Take Brazil for example, where 1 dollar is
28 ARGinMIA : AR385 I dont think Argentina will go bust anytime soon.. the Economic Recovery is not fake.. Payments to the IMF and all the international asociation
29 KEno : Which South/Central American airline that should fill the gap in SkyTeam? I think Copa is quite obvious due to its link to CO. TAM would be a great ad
30 EddieDude : I also think it is only a matter of time before we see CM joining SkyTeam. Many things are bound to happen in Latin America soon, I think. For example
31 TBCITDG : It seems that Aerolinneas Argentinas may have a larger slice of the market if reports out of Argentina are true. American Falcon (another national car
32 SoAmSky : "I think the currency factor is a major player in the poor financial conditions of Latin American aircraft. Take Brazil for example, where 1 dollar is
33 AR385 : SoAmSky I disagree with you. Labor costs in Latin America, In general maybe low, but that's only on unqualified labor. You need to add the huge costs
34 EddieDude : Let's not go into the cost of living discussion. It is all very relative. Evidently Texas is a state where the cost of living is pretty low, but try l
35 AR385 : EddieDude, I agree, let's not get into that. However, Monterrey is a lot more expensive than Mexico City. Specially rents, they are skyhigh too. Compa
36 MAH4546 : And the cost of living in Mexico, is way above the US. (I lived in Virginia and Houston for 5 years). Haha! Try living in New York City, Chicago, Los
37 Post contains images Luisca : just one thing, i have to dissagree with the person that said that copa is on its peak and cant continue to grow. Copa is tied becouse the US (in a po
38 AR385 : MAH4546, I stand by my statement. Go to any web site that compares cost of living and compare it with MTY. And please try to be more civil when you tr
39 SoAmSky : "In general maybe low, but that's only on unqualified labor... The other labor, is almost as expensive as in the US or Europe." AR385 you must be kidd
40 AR385 : SoAmSky, Thanks for your civil opinion. I stand by my statement. There are many "hidden" costs that make Mexico very expensive. Services for example a
41 Post contains links MAH4546 : Go to any web site that compares cost of living and compare it with MTY. Cost of Living Index: 1) Tokyo 10) New York City 20) White Plains 22) Los An
42 AR385 : MAH 4546, Ok, you are right. I was thinking about the hidden costs of this country, specially corruption. I don't think that's included, or property r
43 Marcopolo747 : It was confirmed today that once the season comes to an end JJ will not keep a regular route to HAV . Load factors in the 3 seasonal markets served b
44 AR385 : Marcopolo747 I agree with you, this topic has been very interesting, and thanks for getting us back in track. I'm not so sure though, that JJ would be
45 MAH4546 : It was confirmed today that once the season comes to an end JJ will not keep a regular route to HAV . Load factors in the 3 seasonal markets served by
46 Marcopolo747 : They are seasonal charter flights in conjunction with tour operator CVC. Besides CUN and HAV they were flying to AUA(Reina Beatrix) for the summer sea
47 AA767400 : What about Panama-Europe? Does anyone think that CM might venture into this market? Obviously with new equipment. And is ACES under Avianca's wing? Or
48 AR385 : AA767400 That's a good question. I think CM won't venture into that market, because it has it covered with CO. Also Panama is very attractive, I belei
49 Marcopolo747 : ACES was absorbed and then shutdown by bankrupt AV. I don't think there is a PTY-Europe large enough market unless CM would be able to attract enough
50 MAH4546 : And is ACES under Avianca's wing? Aces is long gone. Avianca took over thier key international routes.
51 SoAmSky : I said this in another thread; however it applies to this thread as well. (The Future of Latin America) One of the main problems is that L.A. don't lo
52 Copa737 : Yes, as Luisca said. I don't know why people continue saying that Taca is in a good financial position. I heard that their financial situation is not
53 Luisca : Actually their used to be a PTY amsterdam rout flown by KLM and it laste about 8 years i think, for some reason after Noriega fell the route was cance
54 Copa737 : Yes, now the connection is one weekly flight between Milan Malpensa and Panama City with a Boeing 767-300 during 4 months. And from Canada the frequen
55 EddieDude : Panama to Europe: I don't think so either. European carriers fly to many cities in Latin America already, and when a destination is not offered, good
56 FMAL : Hey Copa737, we have the same first name! Anyway, this is a very interesting thread, I felt that we never really discussed our region here in this for
57 Luisca : you have to take into consideration that panama uses the US dollar so it has to pay almost industry standar wages. Although they still are lower than
58 Ussherd : I haven't checked the general aviation forum for a few days so I haven't been following this thread as it developed, which is a pity as this has been
59 123 : Ussherd: From my point of view, with actual politics in Venezuela, it´s not an interesting transfer point. Sorry for being honest but don´t take it
60 Ussherd : 123: I certainly understand your point about avoiding CCS. Every time I return to Venezuela (I live in Europe) I'm infuriated by the way the authoriti
61 SoAmSky : "The fact that the cost of labor (and of many other things) is substantially lower in Latin America does not automatically mean that operating an airl
62 123 : Industry salaries in L.A. might well be lower than in Europe/North America/Asia, but what Latin Airlines have to fight with, are very high landing fee
63 FMAL : I agree somewhat with 123. The Latin governments and their thirst for tax money have a major role to play in the condition of LA airlines. In Brazil,
64 AR385 : EddieDude, The issue with LatinAmerican integration is a bit more complex than what it seems. Economically, most of LatinAmerican countries are compet
65 EddieDude : AR385, I think you are absolutely right in your comments and, believe me, I have understood that for a long time. My only point is that if France was
66 MIA : I want to point out those who have attacked Venezuelan Civil Aviation. I want to encourage doubters to visit http://www.maiquetia.com.ve/ and see the
67 SoAmSky : "I may be naïve but I feel there is room in the international markets for the goods of all Latin American countries and a common commercial policy wo
68 FMAL : I think that's the mentality that has made Europe rich and that's why the lack of that mentality in LA has made us poor. We are governed by an elite t
69 SOUTHAMERICA : FMAL, Once the elite realizes it would be much better off should all of LA's citizens enjoy the benefits of a decent life, the access to food, housing
70 FMAL : You're so right SouthAmerica. My post was extremely utopic. Sadly, I have no idea what could come along and rid us of this cancer, as you so well put.
71 AR385 : Altough we are getting way off topic, I beg to differ on what made Europe rich. What made Europe rich was a desire after World War II to avoid the mis
72 EddieDude : You are right we drifted away from the main topic. But I guess the connection is that the aviation industry in Latin America is, in general, in a weak
73 AR385 : Well, you know, it's Navega the one who's merging AM and MX everyday, or has someone that he knows that will tell him very soon that both companies ar
74 SOUTHAMERICA : Guys, as I see you have mostly concentrated the thread on deep South America, so I'd like to add something that I think is worth discussing... In a qu
75 Marcopolo747 : Eddie, I think your comments on JJ make sense, I just would like to add that KK is gone since 2000. It was the feeder arm of TAM and was integrated in
76 SoAmSky : AR385, allow me to quote you: "Another thing is, why the heck, in a country with over 100 million people only 20 million a year or so use air transpor
77 AR385 : SoAmSky If you read the post, the quote "France embrace Europe in the 1950's" is not mine, it's originally from EddiDude.
78 Post contains links and images CRFLY : Some Information about TACA for you guys: TACA (formally known as Grupo Taca) was formed in the 90's when TACA International Airlines of El Salvador b
79 EddieDude : Oh, I see MarcoPolo, thx for the correction. I thought KK was the airline code for Transportes Aéreos del Mercosur. Do you think, then, that PZ would
80 SoAmSky : Hi CRFLY, Just one question, why "the FAA don't like the idea of a whole airline, and it's treated every airline that flies into the US separately: Av
81 AR385 : On post 66 MIA starts with "For thos who are attacking Venezzuelan civil aviation..." I want to make it clear that nobody is "attacking" anything. Thi
82 MIA : My apologies. I wasnt being sensitive. I hope my informed opinion added to the conversation. I just wanted to dispell any half truths or lies about Ve
83 CRFLY : SoAmSky: Well I just know that the FAA don't want to have mixed crews, mixed fleet of planes and all that with TACA... Costa Rica is Category One for
84 FMAL : The was a story here in Brazil some time last year that when Varig and TAM began their codesharing, Varig intended to fly to Miami using TAM's A330s.
85 Marcopolo747 : Eddie, O/D traffic from ASU is very small ( I don't have figures though), but PZ carries more passengers on ASU-EZE than ASU-GRU. AA flies daily from
86 AR385 : MarcoPolo, Eddie PZ, or LAPSA, had for a few years a very neat operation in Mexico City. I'm talking mid to late 80's. You flew from MEX to ASU on the
87 FMAL : Marcopolo, I remember reading about that story. I guess this is exactly what happened now. RG flights must be with RG painted aircraft.
88 Post contains images LatinPlane : Interesting, AR385, I had no idea LAP flew between Asuncion and MEX. There is no traffic between the two points, so I assume that their main objective
89 LVZXV : LAP also flew from Asuncion to Frankfurt!
90 EddieDude : Other than TAM (Mercosur), is there a full-frills airline in Paraguay with an established route system (and perhaps flights to cities abroad)?
91 LVZXV : Nope! Paraguay is maybe the only country in South America without a national airline. Even Bolivia and Guyana have their own, and they're poorer too.
92 LeoDF : Hey everyone: It seems as though the different opinions of everyone who has posted on this thread, each and everyone, make sense and have interesting
93 FMAL : Thank you De Leo for starting an interesting thread on Latin America. We are sometimes forgotten here. Funny thing is, a few of the World's most tradi
94 LVZXV : FMAL I agree. A.net has a news overload from the USA. There are many interesting topics to be delved into in Latin America: LAB and VARIG for one, Ven
95 LeoDF : FMAL: My pleasure! As LVZXV says there is an overload of US news. Of course they are the most numerous members on this forum, but its good to talk abo
96 AR385 : LatinPlane, Thanks for the correction, I was confused about LAP or LAPSA. I guess in this case it was LAP. But yes, they had a very neat operation and
97 123 : LAP flew to SRZ (then: Trompillo/Santa Cruz), with Lockheed Electras and-or 707's. They were very well known to have amazing delays, sometimes of hour
98 FMAL : I think TAM became the world's leader in finding good ways to use the Fokker 100! Did you guys read on another thread that Iberia is moving their Miam
99 BWIA 772 : LeoDF Cubana does not really have much if any Caribbean routes. In terms of size Air Jamaica has a much bigger fleet and serve more destinations than
100 LVZXV : FMAL: Aerolineas was going to open a hub at Miami, and in the late '90s it based a leased 727-23 (N1993) there to fly to Punta Cana and St. Maarten. Y
101 Regis : The future of Latin America? It has none!!! We are doomed.
102 EddieDude : LVZXV, about those possible codeshare flights to Mexico from MIA you mention, would that be MIA-CUN and MIA-MEX or only MIA-CUN? Would AA be the carri
103 LVZXV : AR would probably prefer to do both MEX and CUN, the former being more of a business destination and the latter a tourist one, but I think CUN will co
104 Hugojimenez : To Luisca Where did you get that "financial" information about Taca. I taked with the General Manager of Taca Costa Rica just few days ago, during a f
105 Copa737 : Hugojimenez, Copa still a Panamanian airline, Continental have a participation of 49%. All the pilots in Copa are Panamanian, the flight attendants ar
106 TBCITDG : Aerolineas has also just signed an agreement with a local domestic airline in New Zealand so that it has feeder traffic/more destinations within NZ, s
107 LVZXV : TBCITDG: I'm curious. What was your source that confirmed American Falcon's suspension of scheduled flights? One Argentine newspaper says they only ha
108 AR385 : Wher do you think IB is going to relocate? I have read the thread and it say that somewhere in Central America and Cancun too are candidates. In my op
109 WiLdmanVzla : About what some of you wrote about Venezuela's civil aviation: You're absolutely right, everything in Venezuela is getting worst each day because of t
110 LeoDF : BWIA 772: Sorry to hear the news from BWIA. But if it helps in anyway, most people in Latin America do not know how to make business or don't recogniz
111 Pdpsol : guys, I must agree this topic is very interesting and represents a welcome change from the endless u.s. threads about NW and their DC9s, B6, UAs new l
112 TBCITDG : LVZXV: Aca te mando, I found the info in MAR 01 Newspaper La Nacion. I actually found the article in salvemosaerolineas.com.ar, under "other airlines"
113 Marcopolo747 : LeoDF, Cmte. Amaro Rolim, the late chairman of TAM was one of these true aviation guys, sadly he's gone now. Did you know that Neeleman lived in Braz
114 Hugojimenez : To Copa737 Since CO owns 49% of CP shares, entitles CO as a major shareholder of CP. CO rules all CP policies, just because they take most important d
115 AR385 : Komododx, I really could give a s...where does IB relocate. However, you are saying that we are babbling about it. The information was published in on
116 Post contains links MAH4546 : really don't understand how you can say that MIA is the "capital city" of Latin America. Regardless of the fact it is not in Latin America, it acts as
117 AR385 : MAH4546, The list you produced is a list of mostly American companies. I find it very hard from going from a list of American companies that serve a c
118 123 : MIA is a secret capital city of Latin America from my point of view too. Companies from Europe also like to settle there (banks, traders, etc.) becaus
119 LeoDF : Marcopolo747: Yes, I was reading not long ago the biography of Neeleman and if I recall right he was like a missioner or something like that in his ea
120 AR385 : 123, Well, if you put like that, yes, you are wrong. Everything you say can also be applied to Atlanta or Houston. I have no issue being it: "The Lati
121 Post contains links and images AR385 : Some pics from the past. Let's hope that the carriers of today, don't end up in the future like these great ones from the past: View Large View Medium
122 MAH4546 : read my post, my point exactly. And I said Mexicans, not people from Mexico City. It is not just people from Mexico City, it is Mexicans in general. A
123 AR385 : You need to read my post correctly, MAH. You are either writing nonsense or you have not read it right. In any case, what are you trying to do? convin
124 LVZXV : I am really surprised by the lack of LCCs in Latin America. It is one of the main reasons why so many monopolies are forming (TACA, AR/AU in Argentina
125 SoAmSky : LVZXV, I read some Colombian pilots will launch a new international LCC airline named Fenix. I think, they're in talks with the Aeronautical authority
126 Marcopolo747 : LVZXV, Since you mentioned LCCs and GOL, I just read yesterday that in 2003 it became the 3rd. largest in Brazil in number of passangers pushing VASP
127 FMAL : I read that in December, I think, Gol's red-eye load factors was at 98%, and the company was pushing for a permanent authorization to operate these fl
128 AR385 : LVZXB, You seem to bevery knowledgeable about the Peruvian aviation market. I'm impressed. So what do you think will happen with all the competition i
129 FMAL : AR385, I don't think Gol plans to go International right now. They were going to fly a few charter flights to EZE a while back, not sure if that happe
130 EddieDude : I know I referred about 60 posts above to a separate thread in connection with aviation in Mexico but, if I may, moving back to the Mexican market, wh
131 LVZXV : AR385: I'm no expert on the Peruvian market, but if AeroPeru and Faucett have both gone phut then, from an outsider's perspective, I'd say TANS Peru i
132 Marcopolo747 : In the early 90s VASP was "privatised" and bought by a scoundrel who purchased also LAB, Ecuatoriana and small regional Argentinian airline TAN(Transp
133 LeoDF : Eddiedude: About Mexico: I think the most profitable ones are Aviacsa and Magnicharters. For me, Magnicharters is always underestimated, but the truth
134 AR385 : MArcoPolo747, FMAL and LVZXV Thanks guy for your response Eddiedude, I believe Aviacsa is a case in itself. The routes MTY-ORD and MTY-LAX, were start
135 EddieDude : Wow AR385 and LeoDF, thanks for all your insights. I did not know about the legal troubles of Aviacsa's ex-CEO and I honestly hope that such troubles
136 AR385 : Eddiedude, Yes, Morales has been in SAT almost 4 years now. To those who say LAtin AMerica does not have good managers for their airlines, this guy ha
137 FMAL : A local newspaper here in Rio (O Globo) printed out a report on the growth of the LCCs in the World, and of course Gol here in Brazil. This report quo
138 AR385 : FMAL, How is VARIG run now? Is it still a foundation? and what happened to their MD11 with their tailstrike in MEX?
139 FMAL : Still a foundation (Rubem Berta Foundation) and I'm pretty sure the MD-11 is back in operation. I didn't get much news on the MD-11 because when the t
140 Post contains images Ghost77 : Ar385, and what happened to their MD11 with their tailstrike in MEx? RG MD11 PP-VTF is STD at MX's mx base at MEx. Douglas/Boeing people was here a we
141 AR385 : Thanks, Ghost, as always.
142 123 : Excuse the ignorance about LCC in Brazil, but wasn´t BRA a LCC created by Varig? Do they still fly? Why would Varig create VarigPop if there is alrea
143 NAVEGA : In regards to Aviacsa, they are not doing well in Chicago. It is very difficult for them to compete with an established airline like Mexicana. At firs
144 Marcopolo747 : 123, BRA is still flying but it's not owned by RG. It flies mostly between São Paulo and cities in northeastern the states with 737s leased from RG.
145 AR385 : I think we are forgetting in this thread an important player in the future of LatinAmerica. Iberia. They certainly are important, for their MIA hub, t
146 Marcopolo747 : AR385, After what happened to VA and AR during their IB management experience (there is a 3rd airline involved that was bought and shutdown by them, I
147 AR385 : By the way, it's official. As of March the 20th CO is joining AM and DL alliance. Wether that means it's joining OneWorld, I don't know. The ad is mis
148 Hugojimenez : "Although they still are lower than in the US but for panama they are amaizingly (sic) high, a captain in copa wins almost 18 times the minimun wage a
149 123 : Marcopolo747: Thanks for info regarding BRA! Regarding LB, they fly VVI-MAD-RECIFE (tec.stop)-VVI with their 763's, with increasing schedules, right n
150 EddieDude : AR385, you mean SkyTeam, right? I think CO is going to become formally a SkyTeam member soon. The same with NW and KL. It all makes sense due to (i) t
151 AR385 : Yes, my mistake, I meant skyteam
152 LeoDF : Hey! What's up?? I think we've forgotten also a very important part of Latin American aviation: cargo! Let's see: I think Lan Chile also has the winni
153 LeoDF : Forgot in Mexico Estafeta, doing well, but since I hardly ever see their planes, it's hard to have them in mind. Anyways, here it is!
154 Post contains images SOUTHAMERICA : LeoDF, Indeed, Tampa is significant. They currently operate 5 engine-upgraded DC-8s, and one DC-10 leased from Gemini Air Cargo. They plan on recievi
155 Post contains images Fly727 : Leo, you forgot also Jetpack, which have around 10-12 Sabreliners (T39's). They fly all around the country. Mex-Jet Cargo will finally take off with i
156 S.p.a.s. : LeoDF, LanChile also controls ABSA Cargo, formerly an independent airline here in Brazil. Nowadays they fly a single B767-300ER(F), one DC8-61 is park
157 ORDnDFW777 : Aviacsa has been flying to ORD for months and still does not list the city on their web page. It is difficult for them to compete with MX, regardless
158 Post contains images Fly727 : You mean you expect Avicasa to leave ORD? That doesn't make sense to me. RM
159 Komododx : AR385 FYI I was raised in Bogota, Colombia and lived several years in Fort Lauderdale (If you know where that is) so believe me, I know a lot about th
160 JoseMEX : Ar385, >By the way, it's official. As of March the 20th CO is joining AM and DL alliance.
161 AR385 : JoseMEx, It's in El Norte, so it should be in the Reforma for you. How was the trip?
162 AR385 : ORDnDFW777 I beleive you are mistaken, I just checked AVIACSA's website and they do show ORD as one of their destinations. I don't have the low factor
163 Post contains images MIAMIx707 : ok, one of the reasons why people in latin america prefer traveling to MIAMI and other places for BUSINESS or vacation or whatever instead of visiting
164 123 : LeoDF: LAB did have a 707 cargo jet, it was taken off fleet during VP's terrible administration. Now, LB, since a few weeks, again has a full cargo je
165 S.p.a.s. : 123, Interesting news mate, specially on the new livery. Can you link us some web address where we could see this? You might remember a few years ago
166 LeoDF : 123: Interesting!!! Could you describe this new colorscheme on the 727 cargo? Where do they fly it to? S.p.a.s Thank you! Had forgotten all about APSA
167 123 : LB new color sheme is seen only on the cargo jet. I have no link of where to see it and what I will try to do (I never have time for photospotting) is
168 FMAL : LeoDF, Transbrasil has been out of operations for over two years now. They had AeroBrasil Cargo as a subsidiary, but that airline seized to exist in t
169 LeoDF : 123: Thank you for the info! I look forward if you can take a picture to see it! LAB is one of my favourite airlines! And I'm very interested in Boliv
170 Post contains images Fly727 : LeoDF; THE die-hard LAB fan ! Hey, great topic btw. RM
171 WiLdmanVzla : What a great topic!!!! I'm learning a lot about aviation in Latin America... thanks a lot to all of you for your opinions. *******
172 Post contains links and images Copa737 : LeoDF, Panavia Cargo Airlines is a cargo carrier based in Panama City, they make scheduled and charter flights to many destinations in the Americas. C
173 Post contains images Ghost77 : MIAMIx707, Does anyone know what ever happened to the AeroUnion cargo service to MIA? They were operating here every-other-week during the summer and
174 123 : There´s also residual Challenge Air, now UPS, taking MIA-VVI-MIA cargo 757's.
175 Hugojimenez : There is a new challenge for aviation in Latin America. The rumors of a possible merge of Mexicana and Aeromexico...
176 MIAMIx707 : thanks for the info LeoDr and Ghost77! about the Aerounion service, I havent seen it even at night. They all have had the tail logo painted here in mi
177 Post contains images Ghost77 : MIAMIx707, Your welcome., email me via a photo in DB and I'll send you a pic of XA-TXS. BTW you also shot slides in MIA/FLL/MCO? Don't promise anythin
178 LeoDF : Copa737: Yeap, forgot also about Panavia, which flies occasionally to Mexico City. And also DHL Panama which flies to MEX I think everyday or so! One
179 Post contains images MIAMIx707 : no need to thank me, im from latin america too and I live in miami, how couldn't I be interested in latin american aviation? also the best liveries on
180 FMAL : Gol announced that they will add 6 737-300s to the fleet. I mentioned this before on some thread, maybe it was here, that this rumor was flying around
181 Celticmanx : LeoDF, You hit it off!!! Excellent topic and interesting opinions so far. Let's start to open more discussions like this about Latin America
182 LeoDF : Celticmanx: Thank you! I really appreciate each and everyone who have made this thread possible as well as interesting with their opinions, info and a
183 AM744 : Miami being the Capital or Latin America? Maybe the capital of SOUTH America. Miami isn't that important to Mexico, really, it could dissapear tomorro
184 Post contains images Fly727 : ...or Cuba, for that matter. RM
185 Hugojimenez : Miami being the Capital or Latin America? Maybe the capital of SOUTH America. Miami isn't that important to Mexico, really, it could dissapear tomorro
186 AR385 : I believe we've already gone through this MIA against the world thing. DO we need to revive it? It was a bloody battle, with suspensions and deletions
187 Post contains images Ghost77 : Hugojimenez, Truth that MIA's 2003 passenger volume was 29 million pax and MIA ranks as the third busiest in the United States for international passe
188 Post contains images Fly727 : Hugojimenez: We (I) don't deny the importance of MIA as one of the biggest (or biggest, I truly couldn't care less) connecting airports. The fact is t
189 Hugojimenez : Truth that MIA's 2003 passenger volume was 29 million pax and MIA ranks as the third busiest in the United States for international passengers and No
190 LeoDF : AR385: Nice! Glad to hear someone talk about Bolivia in that way! I just hope to be able to travel there soon! Though prices are not as cheap! Hey guy
191 FMAL : From what I know, Uruguay has Pluna, Aeromas and Uair.com
192 MIAMIx707 : Don't let it bother you, Miami is the capital of the Universe, once again, we have calle ocho tomorrow hahaha If Miami were to disappear Aeromexico an
193 AR385 : HugoJimenez, Again, I have to disagree. You are forgetting LAX, NYC, IAH and even MAD. And when you add those sentences like "it is stilll and will be
194 LVZXV : LeoDF: Update on Uruguay: Air Class operates 1 EMB-110 Bandeirante (CX-VIP) on demand between Aeroparque in Buenos Aires and Colonia del Sacramento in
195 LVZXV : Additional info on PLUNA: Their only long distance service is to Madrid via Rio de Janeiro (nothing to the USA), although the 767 as been seen at Reci
196 AR385 : LVZXV, You have an impressive knowledge of the South Cone aviation scene. Everythign you've said so far is pretty impressive. I've always wonder what
197 MAH4546 : You guys way underestimate the importance of Miami in Mexico. Cultural ties are not strong (though Miami has one of the largest Yucatecan communities
198 AR385 : MAH4546, Guy, I don't think we "guys" are understimating the importance of MIA. Us "guys" are just saying that to us "guys" MIA is not that significan
199 Prinair : Amazing how some people here seem to believe that Mexico is the center of the world. Miami will always be the most important U.S. city with business t
200 123 : Regarding questions about Bolivia made above (thanks!!): 5L = AeroSur has not mentioned anymore their plans to go to MIA or to MAD which was also in c
201 Copa737 : 123, Aerosur is going to start flight to PTY?? I saw one of the 727s few months ago here in Panama. It was the one with the Copa Aerosur de Campeones
202 Post contains images Copa737 : By the way here is a photo of the plane. Felipe
203 Post contains links and images MIAMIx707 : btw I saw (a few months ago) an all white 737 with green tail. Now i've seen photos of that aircraft wearing the logo and titles of Aerosur. Is this g
204 Post contains images MIAMIx707 : Pluna, another one that was supposedly going to start a new Miami route with their newly acquired 763 but so far they're only serving Madrid. AR385 do
205 AR385 : I was being ironic when I wrote "guys". Tough you did not catch the humor on it. I know perfectly well the word in English. And I don't get your point
206 Post contains images AR385 : And for the record, yes, I believe Mexico is the center of the UNIVERSE
207 JoseMEX : >And for the record, yes, I believe Mexico is the center of the UNIVERSE
208 Post contains images MIAMIx707 : alright then! LVZXV I have some friends in Cordoba, what airlines besides southern winds and aerolineas serve this area? Any old propliners,707 of LAD
209 Hugojimenez : HugoJimenez, Again, I have to disagree. You are forgetting LAX, NYC, IAH and even MAD. And when you add those sentences like "it is stilll and will be
210 LVZXV : AR385: That's exactly why PLUNA is buying a single ATR-42. You have to look at Uruguay: It has a population of around 3 million; a third live in Monte
211 AR385 : 123, I flew AeroSur back in the summer of 98, from VVI to LAP and from VVI to CCB. Their 727's were ex AA as they still had the AA interior. But the s
212 Hugojimenez : Oh well, Ticos will be Ticos, Don't take MIA away from them (their center of the universe) or they'll go and choke to death I bet that your the one th
213 LVZXV : Miamix707: Nope! AR/AU and Southern Winds are the only airlines serving Cordoba (mind you, from there you can go places!), although the newspaper La P
214 LeoDF : 123: Any additional info on Amaszonas or Save? I think Save operates Metros or am I wrong? What ever happened to Faucett? I can only say that the Gold
215 FMAL : Most of Europe is like that too. You take Italy and Alitalia for example, Air France, Iberia, TAP, Lufthansa.... there's only one market that can hand
216 123 : Aerosur is actually the airline with better service on local flights. I never tried them on international flights. They fly to PTY on charter basis /
217 Pdpsol : Hey LVZXV, Yours was a great description of Uruguay and its tiny air transport market. As my nick indicates, I love Punta del Este (PDP) and have fami
218 MAH4546 : LAB's stop in MAO is with 5th freedom. It's not a tecnical stop and now actually a good revenue stop for MAO-MIA-MAO pax and cargo. They do that now w
219 LVZXV : 123: Haven't heard much about SAVE but I know an ex-LAER Jetstream 32 (LV-VEJ) was headed for Bolivia very recently, as CP-2441. No sign of it though.
220 AR385 : I believe that in the case of Mexico, although we have two dominant carriers, we have a bunch that make these two watch their tails. I will take excep
221 Post contains images AR385 : Forgot to add these, with MTY being my home airport (I started to try and be mopre friendly,) so try and bear with me and the happy face. I'm learning
222 LVZXV : AR385: I may have little to do with Bolivia, but my opinion is this: A growing number of tourists are visiting the many wonders of Bolivia, and intern
223 AR385 : LVZXB, The months I lived in Bolivia, I spent them in Santa Cruza. Although I am not ignorant at all of the poverty in the rest of Boliva, not only by
224 LVZXV : AR385: Interesting what you say about Bolivia. Like I said, you probably know more about it than me. AeroSur, curiously, was on the verge of incorpora
225 LVZXV : AR385: ¡Soy porteño!
226 Motorhussy : Hola LeoDF Both Aerolineas Argentinas and LAN Chile fly to AKL, New Zealand on their way to SYD, Australia. This is not a fuel stop as the A342's and
227 SoAmSky : LVZXV, Why do many carriers in Argentina use English names. ie: American Falcon, Southern Winds.? When one hears about these airlines, kinda think of
228 AR385 : 123, MAH 4546, Thanks for the answer to my question about that LB stop in MAO. It's really uncomfortable, because you have to wake up in the middle of
229 MIA : I am so surprised about comments in Venezuela. I guess they used to do it but I have done various connections in CCS for international flights and it
230 LVZXV : SoAmSky: I'm not going to speak for myself but I will give you some authentic Argentine explanations for American Falcon and Southern Winds: 1492- Cri
231 AR385 : Did I just read somewhere somebody wrote Hugo Chavez is good for business? Wow. Then I guessAristide was great for Haiti!!
232 SoAmSky : LVZXV, Thank you for your answer. I want to clarify, though, that when I asked you I didn't mean it for the use of the word "American" as in Yankees;
233 JoseMEX : Although I understand that it may be difficult for non-spanish speakers to pronounce, I must say that "Vientos Australes" sounds beautiful.
234 LVZXV : SoAmSky: I agree. 'Falcon Americana' [Lineas Aereas] would sound better. 'Vientos Australes' also sounds ok. And with Argentina's tradition of abbrevi
235 AR385 : Remember too that "Southern Winds" started flying with turboprops. I believe DeHavilland DHC-100 and 200's if I'm not mistaken. A long while later the
236 LVZXV : AR385: Southern Winds actually started out with the CRJ-200s in 1996, incorporating the Dash 8s 2 years later. It was always viewed as modern in Argen
237 MAH4546 : Why do many carriers in Argentina use English names. ie: American Falcon, Southern Winds.? When one hears about these airlines, kinda think of them as
238 LVZXV : MAH4546: "...the full name of Southern Winds is (or was) Southern Winds Lineas Aereas." ...And is now Southern Winds Lineas Aereas Federales Sociedad
239 Lan_Fanatic : "Argentines have an uncanny yet obnoxious knack for blurring lines!" I cannot read this without telling a joke... Here in Chile we have a joke...when
240 AR385 : LVZXV, I had no idea that Southern Winds started first with CRJ and then with turboprops. A guy from Grad School, who according to him is a friend wit
241 Ussherd : Chavez is good for business??? This is news to me. While the previous administrations were corrupt to the core, the current administration is complete
242 LVZXV : Lan Fanatic: Ojo! I've seen Chilean maps in southern Chile where ALL of Argentine Patagonia is labelled Chilean! Also seems few Chileans have even hea
243 Lan_Fanatic : LOL LVZXV Actually is common to see and listen people in southern Chile saying that the Patagonia belonged to Chile. As a matter of fact it did, but I
244 LVZXV : Lan Fanatic: Yes, sorry about Patagonia! It's not like we populated it or anything (the Chilotes did that for us)! ¡Viva Gral. Roca! (Just kidding!)
245 Post contains images LatinPlane : Very interesting points Ussherd. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the matter. LatinPlane
246 FMAL : Funny how these regional rivalries build up! The ancient Brazil x Argentina rivalry is amazing, specially on the soccer fields
247 AM744 : MAH4546, Telephone, gas, air travel, electricity, cars and credit are more expensive here in ABSOLUTE numbers. Back to the topic.
248 LeoDF : Now Argentinas wants to buy PLUNA. Looks like Argentinas is waking very fast! Will Varig let it go? LeoDF
249 AR385 : Does anybody now if MX ever operated a 757 with a RB-211 engine? I recall seeing one but I may be confused. If they did operate one, why? in a fleet f
250 ACES320 : There is a new topic in A.net related to LCA airlines in Latin America. It could be the future that Latin America joins this successful trend in the a
251 EddieDude : All other things being equal, that may be possible only if national governments make their aviation policies more flexible and less protective of the
252 FMAL : Varig has accepted to take an offer from Aerolíneas. The argentinians are now conducting a study of Pluna's assets and operations. They're essentiall
253 EddieDude : Do you think that if PU is bought by AR, it would still be allowed to pick up pax in GIG on the way to/from MAD? Is fifth freedom rights even a concer
254 LVZXV : EddieDude: Put it this way, MVD-GIG-MAD makes a lot more sense than MVD-EZE-MAD. There is no point in forcing the plane through Argentine airspace. Wa
255 LeoDF : How are things? Any news on Pluna? About LCC's in Latin America: There have been a lot of interesting points regarding this topic: 1) Airport fees: to
256 Usatoeze : American Falcon belongs to the same continent Colon/Columbus discovered before geographers and politicians started breaking up the land of hope into N
257 AR385 : Usatoeze. I will add you to my respected users list. Thanks to you for being interested in what happens outside you borders.
258 Usatoeze : AR385: Gracias! This is a fantastic post. I learned more about aviation in Latin America in one post than I have in 3 years of trying to figure it out
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