LeoDF From Mexico, joined Aug 1999, 359 posts, RR: 5 Posted (10 years 8 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 19531 times:
I was reading yesterday an article about Lloyd Aereo Boliviano (LAB) where its Mexican Regional Manager talked a bit about their future plans. Included were the arrival of their 3rd and 4th 767's, along with new services to Mexico City. What I understood is that they were going to offer 2 flights, one on the morning and the other at night. And that soon they will upgrade their equipment as well and were trying to do so for Cancun as well.
I also read about Avianca's probable purchase by Continental or at least a bid, that Lan Chile also made but was far too low.
So, this kept me thinking. South America will sooner or later end up with few airlines controlling the market.
1) Lan Chile: for excellence the biggest and most known airline of the region. They own subsidiaries in Peru and Ecuador and have tried to start one in Bolivia and Argentina. And of course, wanted to take over Avianca. No real competition menaces this airline, for the countries where it has airlines have no other airlines, or insignificant and troublesome ones!
2) Aerolineas Argentinas: after being purchased by Air Plus Comet, they had their second chance. They are growing again, with their very first 747-400. I also think few competition is encountered by this airline in Argentina. Southern Winds was doing well, but then shrank or disappeared, don't know, same as LAPA.
3) Varig: recovering. Maybe the proposed merger with TAM would do both of them good. But at the same time, competition has made them open their eyes and start really doing their business. After all, that's what competition is all about, lowering costs, offering good service and become profitable.
4) LAB: encountering good competition from Aerosur that has become an international airline. Anyways, LAB is growing and is growing fast. Considering it comes from the 2nd poorest if not the poorest country in South America, their recovery after being taken over by Bolivian businessmen has been spectacular. And their future plans call for even better times. Competition has also made them better I suppose.
5) TAM: good strategy. With TAM Mercosur controls passengers in Paraguay, which lacks a national airline. Also has been growing a lot, since its fleet of Fokker 100's.
6) Avianca: near death?
7) Avensa: ???? I have no idea! The biggest in Venezuela. But have no idea of their future plans. I heard or read that maybe Viasa returned. If so, this would put Avensa in a difficult situation, after a long time without real competition.
So, if we put it this way:
The really big ones and powerful in South America are:
Lan Chile (Europe, Australia, America)
Aerolineas Argentinas (recovering) (Europe, Australia)
LAB (starting in Europe with once weekly to Madrid, America)
Varig (Europe, USA)
Will South America end up with only these airlines? Lan Chile will probably end up with an affiliate airline in each and every country throughout S. America!
I guess these are the strongest and probably the most likely to survive.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33085 posts, RR: 71
Reply 1, posted (10 years 8 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 19144 times:
The really big ones and powerful in South America are:
Lan Chile (Europe, Australia, America)
Aerolineas Argentinas (recovering) (Europe, Australia)
LAB (starting in Europe with once weekly to Madrid, America)
Varig (Europe, USA)
Varig also flies to Asia (Tokyo) and starts South Africa (JNB) in April. TAM also flies to America, with daily service to Miami. Starting in May, they will have double-daily service to Miami, including non-stops between Miami and Salvador da Bahia. Aerolineas Argentinas also flies to America, with service to Miami and JFK.
SOUTHAMERICA From Colombia, joined Dec 2003, 2497 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (10 years 8 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 19076 times:
Avianca: near death?
Well, in some form, yes. But they are still operating normally and waiting for the eventual investor.
Avensa: ???? I have no idea! The biggest in Venezuela. But have no idea of their future plans. I heard or read that maybe Viasa returned. If so, this would put Avensa in a difficult situation, after a long time without real competition.
Avensa couldn't be further from being that. Anyways, as Chepos said, the dominant player in Venezuela is Aeropostal, followed by Aserca and Santa Barbara.
Add to the list..
Avianca (Europe and America) (They also currently own a larger, younger fleet and network than LAB)
SoAmSky From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 19047 times:
"The Future of Latin America" is the name of this thread; however, no mention of Aeromexico, Mexicana, Grupo Taca, copa that are part of Latin America. You just focused on South America. So, what should we discuss here, Latin America or just South America airline future?
FMAL From Brazil, joined Jan 2004, 486 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (10 years 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 18993 times:
Isn't Avensa already out of business, and has been for some time now?
I don't see LanChile getting an affiliate here in Brazil any time soon. I mean, never say never, but Brazil already has Varig, who is indeed the largest airline in Latin America and perhaps the best known (and not LanChile), and TAM, the up and coming airline who is now fading out their F-100s and replacing them with Airbus aircraft. Furthermore there's Gol, the low-cost carrier who is making money and gaining market share. So LanBrasil, not likely.
Vasp might be the next Brazilian carrier to go. LanChile has grown since it became almost the sole airline of Chile, which is now the country in the best shape in Latin America. Peru and Ecuador are small markets and didn't have a major airline, so it was relatively easy for LanChile to get into those markets. Argentina, Brazil, Mexico, etc; those are another story.
The Varig and TAM merger here in Brazil is not likely to happen, the best scenario would be the creation of a holding company that would control both airlines, who would then maintain their own identities. They are two completely different airlines, with different philosophies and history. Varig is the third oldest airline in the world (if I'm not mistaken).
LeoDF From Mexico, joined Aug 1999, 359 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (10 years 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 18985 times:
I would like to add Central America and Mexico if you allow me.
So, in Central America we have of course:
1) TACA: leading airline. Took over NICA, AVIATECA, La Costeña, Sahsa? You see my memory today isn't at its best. Well anyways they rule Central America and are trying to infiltrate into South America with Taca Peru.
2) COPA: with the influence and capital of Continental, COPA has managed a good position within Latin America. 2nd largest of Central America of course.
Not strange that one is Airbus and the other Boeing HA! (TAM-Varig???).
Aeromexico and Mexicana: as rumours popped this past week about a possible merger I have no idea of what to say! The idea of forming one airline could be good in an administrative point of view (money saving, less work force, standarization of routes) and maybe in the future they would recover their work force with growth!
And others such as Aviacsa, Azteca, Aeromar and Magnicharters are, to my eyes, in a good position. They represent fierce competition to the Cintra conglomerate. But some others that I thought had come to earn a well deserved position on Mexican skies have dropped services such as Allegro and possibly in the future Aerocalifornia!
A lot of little airlines. Of course some big ones as Cubana, Air Jamaica and BWIA. But I guess competition there isn't as harsh as in continental Latin America. Don't know really! Maybe someone can help me!
BTW: sorry about Aeropostal! Had forgotten all about it!!
Jj From Algeria, joined Jun 2001, 1227 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (10 years 8 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 18924 times:
As to Argentina, the situation is pretty much this: AR controls the domestic market (About 80% of the traffic is theirs), and they are making money here....
There are only two other airlines competing right now:
Southern Winds (which has been granted a subsidy to operate the airline branch of the government LAFSA 'Lineas Aeras Federales') with about 6 737's. But their situation is critical. Even though the subsidy covers all fuel costs, they still loose money on the domestic routes. They are slowly adding more destinations but few of them have daily service...
American Falcon is the other little airline, with 2 737's and 2 Fokker 28's. But they are in a similar situation, even though they do not loose as much money as SW.
LAPA and DINAR, have completely dissapeared, some of the workers have been hired by SW/Federales...
Speaking of the international market, AR has a total control of it. They are only challenged by SW on the Madrid route. I'm not sure if they are operating into Miami now, since they have now only 1 767.
But AR does not only have a total domination of the market.... they make money as well! Last year's result returned a profit of about 40 mill euros. Not bad given the current situation....
So AR is expanding it's wings. They have already received 1 A 310 and 1 747-400. The next additions to the fleet will be:
3 Boeing 747-400 (May 2004/ Jan 2005)
1 Airbus 340-200 (Jun 2004)
1 Airbus 310-300 (Oct 2004)
8 Boeing 737-500 (May/Dec 2004)
2 MD 83 (Jun/Jul 2004) - An additional one if the aircraft that lost one of it's landing gears the other day is a write off.
What AR intends to do with this is:
The Airbus and Boeing 747-400's will replace the 5 airworthy 747-200's.
The Boeing 737-500's will replace the 5 oldest 737-200's and will be used to expand the domestic/regional market.
The Md's will be used to expand the regional market.
As you can see, AR is growing again. Let's just hope they continue this way! if they do, they can certainly be a big contender in the South American market...
TBCITDG From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 921 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (10 years 8 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 18916 times:
I think that Lan would find it very hard to commence operations in Brasil or even Aregtnina for that matter. Although only time will tell.
Aerolineas Argentinas are in current talks to purchse Pluna (Uruguay) from Varig.
They have also posted their intention to begin:
Aerolineas Australes Bolivia
Aerolineas Australes Paraguay
Aerolineas Australes Uruguay
Aerolineas Australes Chile
I wonder how this will effect the local carriers?
I am not too sure as to wether they will protest or not the emergence of Lan Argentina seeing as they too would like to commence operations in Chile. Who knows?
They are also to commence regional hubs within Argentina and flights to Beijing this year (who knows?)
MIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 875 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (10 years 8 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 18898 times:
As the Venezuelan friends have pointed out. Alas de Venezuela a corporation that bought the name Aeropostal is the largest in Venezuela. I would like to point out to some people that the Varig/TAM merger is not going to happen. They are planning on codesharing but nothing else. I know this from reliable sources within Varig. Also about Avensa, after the Boulton family was subjected to a horrendous kidnapping Servivensa collapsed. I know they still have planes, hangar space and airport space (I know in Caracas and Barquisimeto). I like LanChile, but I have spoken many times to my father, their fleet is so stretched out with Lan Dominicana/Ecuador and Peru. They need new 767's. I know they started with the A340s to NYC and LAX but this seems like a dangerous deviation from their proven business plan. About Avianca, I flew with them and they decided to change me 2 hour stop over to a 10 hour one. The horrendous service I received during that time on the ground was so humiliating that I wish the worst to Avianca. I am sorry to Colombians but Avianca can rot in hell.
"Like all great travelers, I have seen more than I remember, and remember more than I have seen."
EddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7602 posts, RR: 42
Reply 18, posted (10 years 8 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 18878 times:
MarcoPolo747, I read an article in LatinTrade about three months ago in which it was clear that RG was the largest Latin American carrier both in terms of passengers and RPK's. AM, JJ and MX -I believe in that order- were (somewhat far) behind RG fighting for second place (too close to call) in terms of passengers and then was LA, although in terms of RPK's I think LA was second and then came the Mexican carriers and JJ. Or so I recall; unfortunately I don't have the issue with me anymore.
Now, I think LA is perhaps the airline in the best position in the region. They not only have a nice network of routes, including destinations in Europe, North America and Oceania, but also a very good reputation and a healthy balance sheet.
From what I have read and heard, RG is doing not so well, especially because of their debt and their losses. RG has always tried, I believe, to be at the forefront of the Latin American carriers in terms of fleet and destinations, and that unfortunately comes at a cost. In addition, although I have never personally experienced flying with RG, I understand they don't have consistent service. In any case, we might see them starting flights to China soon and will definitely see them going back to South Africa too (oh, and a separate thread discusses they are getting more 772's and are going to start flying them to MEx, SCL and many other destinations at least temporarily). As for JJ, I really liked them when I flew CGH-VIX-CGH with them a month ago. The Airbuses are pretty new and in great shape and service is good (I really look forward to flying MIA-GRU in JJ's business class some day); in addition, I think that although their international presence is limited, its routes and codeshare partners are very well thought (and hopefully the investment in Transportes Aéreos del Mercosur is profitable). Though RG is a much "larger" airline in terms of pax and RPK's, if the two companies merged today as it was originally planned, JJ's shareholders would end up owning almost 95% of the new company because of RG's debt, so that is just a sign that JJ is healthier and more valuable. With respect to the merger, both companies have informed the regulatory authorities in Brazil that they have decided to postpone it two years and will instead focus in furthering their codeshare partnership and in consolidating backroom activities in a 50-50 joint venture company in order to cut costs.
I did not know that LB was so ambitious. If their flight to MAD proves successful and they find a way to become an established player in the MIA-South America market, then it shall see better times. As far as I know, their flight from VVI to MEx stops in PTY and is serviced with a 722, so it would be nice if they started offering non-stop service with newer, widebody aircraft. If they do and if they indeed start CUN, they can become a viable alternative for Mexicans going to Chile, Bolivia and the Mercosur countries and viceversa, especially if they offer fares lower than those of its competitors. I don't know how good LB is in terms of service quality, but hopefully it will become a worthy competitor.
I think the ownership of AR by Grupo Marsan's has proved to be a positive thing and it is nice to see them getting 744's and starting flights to PEK (RG will follow in my opinion). Hopefully they will return to MEx and/or CUN soon... it sure will be a welcome addition to the group of airlines that can be found at MEx.
I have read here many times that AVENSA is as good as dead, but I am glad to hear that Aeropostal is doing good. I guess the current political and economic environment in Venezuela will prevent the Venezuelan aviation industry from growing, but hopefully that will change soon.
In connection with CM, I believe that the location of PTY, the attractive fares and the very smart connection system is doing wonders for CM. My friends from Santiago de Chile always fly CM to MEx since service is good and comes cheaper than AM or LA. I just feel that their all-737 fleet, although very modern, is not a good reason to fly them from PTY to destinations like GRU or EZE.
I really don't know much about TACA, except that they are doing okay and that they have good service.
And about Mexican aviation, I think it's best to refer to the thread called "Future of AeroMexico" since so many things are going on at the moment. I just hope that all these internal movements in CINTRA do not derail the aggressive expansion plans of MX and the recovery of AM. I like AM and its long-haul 767's (and the new 73W's are awesome) and I really like MX's A32x fleet, so I hope they stay independent and add new destinations in Europe and South America.
Marcopolo747 From Brazil, joined Mar 2001, 460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (10 years 8 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 18855 times:
I remember some years ago MX was 1st in RPKs but such things change continously. My experiences with LA were very good but they will never play a big role because their dosmestic and regional markets are small, however they might build one by adding LAN-Peru, LAN-Ecuador, LAN-Colombia and so on. In terms of passenger numbers the big players will always be in Argentina, Brazil and Mexico.
RG will start flying its own aircraft to JNB 3x a week , 772s bought from BA, recently it added 2 M11s bought from LX.
I would say it will also start flying to PEK very soon as an extension to its NRT service for the moment.
At the moment, CM is the best option from Brazil to Central America and Caribbean with its daily 73W service to PTY where connections are easy.
JJ is flying charters to Aruba and Havana, it is rumoured that the HAV service might become a regular weekly service.
EddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7602 posts, RR: 42
Reply 20, posted (10 years 8 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 18824 times:
Hey Marco, nice to hear from you. How are you doing my friend?
I looked in the net for the statistics I was quoting but I was unsuccessful. All I could find was a ranking from 2001. The link is http://www.kiat.net/travel/airlines.html/ and it shows that RG was Latin America's number one in 2001 with 26 billion RPK's, then AM with 14.1 and then MX with 13.4. I guess the numbers may have moved a bit downwards during 2002 and that 2003 was overall similar to 2002.
It is interesting that JJ is considering to start scheduled service to HAV. I find it a bit strange, though, since JJ's three international flights seem to cater to a mix of business and leisure pax, whereas HAV will be a 99.9% leisure destination and that's not where the money is. To be honest, I would have expected JJ to start fliying to SCL, MAD or JFK before HAV. In any case, this would probably be the only Mercosur flight to HAV and, therefore, passenger loads should be good. Besides, the caution that JJ has demonstrated when it comes to international routes is a sign that they do not enter a market unless they are certain that it will work, so that's also a good sign. What do you think?
TBCITDG From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 921 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (10 years 8 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 18759 times:
Well said MarcoPolo;
In order for Lan to increase their peresence in South Aamerica, even the rest of the world, they will need to tap into the Argentine/Brasilian and Mexican markets, some of which are protected (at the moment) by their countries Goverments.
Even operations like Lan Dominicana, Lan Peru can only grow so much, so I am sure Lan will try to make a big push into other Latin Countries.
I have no evidence, but I get the feeling that unless they do enter other markets, Lan will stagnate in terms of growth.(obviously way down the track).
They have stated publicly their intentions of becoming Latin Americas top airline, although I think that they will find that a little hard with the likes of Varig/Mexicana.
AR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6371 posts, RR: 32
Reply 23, posted (10 years 8 months 6 days ago) and read 18742 times:
This thread is incredibly interesting but I believe that it is too encompassing for each of us to give an accurate portrayal of the market in SouthAmerica, plus Mexico. I will try to post what I know and what I've experienced.
I believe four conditions IN THE REGION we are discussing, are necessary for an airline to be successful
1) A solid, strong, domestic and global economy
2) Good O&D traffic
3) Good, independent, profit-oriented management
Now, if I measure each airline or country by each of these indicators things look clearer to me. Remember you can agree or disagree.
In the case of AM and MX as a whole and the other airlines in Mexico, things look good, but I don't think they fulfill #1 and #4 of my points. Another thing is, why the heck, in a country with over 100 million people only 20 million a year or so use air transport? This is a huge, untapped market that is overlooked and is the result of one of the worst income distributions in the world. But I would suggest to go with EddiDude's (I believe) advice, and go to the thread "future of Aeromexico."
Central America is a gamble. They have no #2, and marginal #1 at best. I'll give them points for #3 and number #4. In general TACA has incosistent service at best, while I believe CM has reached the limit of its growth.
Colombia, well, #1 seems to be ok, #2 also, #3, lousy, and #4 has no impact whatsoever. I remember a comment where someone mention AVIANCA can rot in hell. Well, I wouldn't put it in those words, but one time in 2000, they stranded me in the middle of the summer in Barranquilla airport for 6 hours. If it wasn't for the lack of, well, everything (refreshments, food, etc) and the bats flying around inside the terminal it probably would not have been so bad...How's that for service? Continental is taking a huge risk with this investment.
Venezuela, not much to say there. I'll be surprised if any airline survives after the current problems the country is going through. So for now it can be ignored
About Ecuador. It has similar problems to Venezuela, plus TAME has a tendency to crash often. Wouldn't fly them if it was for free. I believe we can ignore them too for now.
Bolivia is very interesting. LB is a basic, few frills airline, with good service, clean, safe and well maintained planes, the pilots are the best in the region and their fleet renovation program is making sense. They have a good strategy and have been stable and well managed for years.They might very well become a force to be reckoned with if the government sorts itself out and if the GNP starts growing from the paltry 9 Billion USD/year. Geographically they could not be in a better position in South America. Funny they don't see that, they insist on destabilizing themselves politically for want of a lost coastline.
Argentina is an interesting case. It could go both ways. AR could continue to grow and thrive or it will crash and burn again. As MarcoPolo has said, Mexico, Argentina and Brazil are a different story. The problem with Argentina is that they are not out of the woods yet. And the reason they are having such a strong recovery is that they have suspended payments on their debt. This has created a bubble, and a fake recovery. We know what happens to bubbles. What will happen when Argentina finally needs to start paying its debts? AR is constantly fearing that its planes will get impounded. However, with a control of 80% of the domestic market I guess that's a cashcow. I have no idea about service. Last flew them EZE-MX), Mexico">MEX, 747-287 in 94 in F and it was a disaster. Southern Winds is just (now) a government populist contraption and is just being kept around so people can say there's "competition" I wonder what happened with LADE? Anybody knows? In conclusion, Argentina's future to me is 60% they implode and 40% they make it.
In Chile I believe everything has been said here.. Yes, Lan is a great airline, outstandingly well managed, and all that, etc..I just think that the country needs to keep its growth rate on its economy constantly moving up, because their O&D traffic is not the best. And yes, surprise, Chile has a strong problem on the income distribution side. That's a strong weakness.
It's hard to find anything to say about Brasil. They have everything to have one of the greatest airlines in the world. And I believe they actually do. The problem on RG is management. Maybe because it's a foundation and not primarily profit-oriented it's been managed badly for years and years. I flew RG in '99 on their 743, C class on the upperdeck GRU-MIA and many other domestics on the 737-300's. I was not impressed with the service. Domestically, however, I think they are very strong. I never had trouble finding a flight to anywhere, Salvador, Araripina, Ilheus, Recife, etc. And the Ponte-Aereo is a cashcow. If they could better their service a little bit and get better managed, forget about LanChile, RG would be the airline to watch. I agree with others, VASP is in its death throes, and JJ, well, they were great. I think, though when their owner, founder and real talent in the company died, things went downhill. I'm skeptical in the long term for them.
Peru's civil aviation has been a mess for years and years. Aeroperu was killed in '72, I think, then revived again in '78? then died again in '89 until AM came and got it going again (and sacked it with Prevoisin laughing all the way to the bank) I don't know if Faucett is still around or AeroContinente. But the whole aviation scene there has been a mess for years, so I can't find much to say about them.
There. My two cents. this started kind of very structured, but then sort of lost that. I hope you all can read it.
FMAL From Brazil, joined Jan 2004, 486 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (10 years 8 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 18648 times:
I agree with AR385. The major problem Varig had was management. It seems that things now are a little different. The thing with Varig is that for a very long while, they were the sole airline in Brazil. There was Vasp and Transbrasil, but they never came close to Varig. Varig was at one point, a billion dollar a year airline, net profits. Then came deregulation, and they never adapted. So Varig had a huge staff, all with tons of benefits (people said it was great to work for Varig) because they never had to worry about that, the Air Shuttle alone paid for everything. Things changed, and they never adapted, so they almost went broke.
Now, given the current situation in Brazil, and how disappointing this government is, I doubt that they would let Varig shut down. They are now way clear of that, renegotiating debts and doing well (the operation is already profitable again). Should they emerge, with some help, from their situation, Varig is the airline to be reckoned with. As well they should be.
LanChile is an admirable airline. I never flew them, but sure have the curiosity and the desire to do so. Their livery is, in my opinion, the best one around anywhere in the world. But Chile is a small country, and as was said before, an economic turn around in Chile (unlikely as it may seem) could change their scenario pretty quickly. But they seem to have a solid business plan, and are carrying it out and so far, its working.
I think the same goes to Argentina. Should the economy stall again, who knows what happens to Aerolineas?
The pattern seems to be, the continent and the local economies can only hold one, two profitable airlines, tops. They just don't have enough traffic to handle many airlines in one country. Brazil, the largest of all Latin American countries, can't handle more then 3 airlines, but the general opinion is that two "big" ones is more then enough, 3 is already a strecht.
: Thank you AR385! I sure did find it interesting. This region has a lot of potential! The problem or question is the future. Thank you all for your com
: In post 18 it is mentioned that LB should upgrade aircraft to MEX. Before entering MIA/EZE/GRU/MAD with their 767's, LB flew into MEX with 767 nonstop
: I think the currency factor is a major player in the poor financial conditions of Latin American aircraft. Take Brazil for example, where 1 dollar is
: AR385 I dont think Argentina will go bust anytime soon.. the Economic Recovery is not fake.. Payments to the IMF and all the international asociation
: Which South/Central American airline that should fill the gap in SkyTeam? I think Copa is quite obvious due to its link to CO. TAM would be a great ad
: I also think it is only a matter of time before we see CM joining SkyTeam. Many things are bound to happen in Latin America soon, I think. For example
: It seems that Aerolinneas Argentinas may have a larger slice of the market if reports out of Argentina are true. American Falcon (another national car
: "I think the currency factor is a major player in the poor financial conditions of Latin American aircraft. Take Brazil for example, where 1 dollar is
: SoAmSky I disagree with you. Labor costs in Latin America, In general maybe low, but that's only on unqualified labor. You need to add the huge costs
: Let's not go into the cost of living discussion. It is all very relative. Evidently Texas is a state where the cost of living is pretty low, but try l
: EddieDude, I agree, let's not get into that. However, Monterrey is a lot more expensive than Mexico City. Specially rents, they are skyhigh too. Compa
: And the cost of living in Mexico, is way above the US. (I lived in Virginia and Houston for 5 years). Haha! Try living in New York City, Chicago, Los
: just one thing, i have to dissagree with the person that said that copa is on its peak and cant continue to grow. Copa is tied becouse the US (in a po
: MAH4546, I stand by my statement. Go to any web site that compares cost of living and compare it with MTY. And please try to be more civil when you tr
: "In general maybe low, but that's only on unqualified labor... The other labor, is almost as expensive as in the US or Europe." AR385 you must be kidd
: SoAmSky, Thanks for your civil opinion. I stand by my statement. There are many "hidden" costs that make Mexico very expensive. Services for example a
: Go to any web site that compares cost of living and compare it with MTY. Cost of Living Index: 1) Tokyo 10) New York City 20) White Plains 22) Los An
: MAH 4546, Ok, you are right. I was thinking about the hidden costs of this country, specially corruption. I don't think that's included, or property r
: It was confirmed today that once the season comes to an end JJ will not keep a regular route to HAV . Load factors in the 3 seasonal markets served b
: Marcopolo747 I agree with you, this topic has been very interesting, and thanks for getting us back in track. I'm not so sure though, that JJ would be
: It was confirmed today that once the season comes to an end JJ will not keep a regular route to HAV . Load factors in the 3 seasonal markets served by
: They are seasonal charter flights in conjunction with tour operator CVC. Besides CUN and HAV they were flying to AUA(Reina Beatrix) for the summer sea
: What about Panama-Europe? Does anyone think that CM might venture into this market? Obviously with new equipment. And is ACES under Avianca's wing? Or
: AA767400 That's a good question. I think CM won't venture into that market, because it has it covered with CO. Also Panama is very attractive, I belei
: ACES was absorbed and then shutdown by bankrupt AV. I don't think there is a PTY-Europe large enough market unless CM would be able to attract enough
: And is ACES under Avianca's wing? Aces is long gone. Avianca took over thier key international routes.
: I said this in another thread; however it applies to this thread as well. (The Future of Latin America) One of the main problems is that L.A. don't lo
: Yes, as Luisca said. I don't know why people continue saying that Taca is in a good financial position. I heard that their financial situation is not
: Actually their used to be a PTY amsterdam rout flown by KLM and it laste about 8 years i think, for some reason after Noriega fell the route was cance
: Yes, now the connection is one weekly flight between Milan Malpensa and Panama City with a Boeing 767-300 during 4 months. And from Canada the frequen
: Panama to Europe: I don't think so either. European carriers fly to many cities in Latin America already, and when a destination is not offered, good
: Hey Copa737, we have the same first name! Anyway, this is a very interesting thread, I felt that we never really discussed our region here in this for
: you have to take into consideration that panama uses the US dollar so it has to pay almost industry standar wages. Although they still are lower than
: I haven't checked the general aviation forum for a few days so I haven't been following this thread as it developed, which is a pity as this has been
: Ussherd: From my point of view, with actual politics in Venezuela, it´s not an interesting transfer point. Sorry for being honest but don´t take it
: 123: I certainly understand your point about avoiding CCS. Every time I return to Venezuela (I live in Europe) I'm infuriated by the way the authoriti
: "The fact that the cost of labor (and of many other things) is substantially lower in Latin America does not automatically mean that operating an airl
: Industry salaries in L.A. might well be lower than in Europe/North America/Asia, but what Latin Airlines have to fight with, are very high landing fee
: I agree somewhat with 123. The Latin governments and their thirst for tax money have a major role to play in the condition of LA airlines. In Brazil,
: EddieDude, The issue with LatinAmerican integration is a bit more complex than what it seems. Economically, most of LatinAmerican countries are compet
: AR385, I think you are absolutely right in your comments and, believe me, I have understood that for a long time. My only point is that if France was
: I want to point out those who have attacked Venezuelan Civil Aviation. I want to encourage doubters to visit http://www.maiquetia.com.ve/ and see the
: "I may be naïve but I feel there is room in the international markets for the goods of all Latin American countries and a common commercial policy wo
: I think that's the mentality that has made Europe rich and that's why the lack of that mentality in LA has made us poor. We are governed by an elite t
: FMAL, Once the elite realizes it would be much better off should all of LA's citizens enjoy the benefits of a decent life, the access to food, housing
: You're so right SouthAmerica. My post was extremely utopic. Sadly, I have no idea what could come along and rid us of this cancer, as you so well put.
: Altough we are getting way off topic, I beg to differ on what made Europe rich. What made Europe rich was a desire after World War II to avoid the mis
: You are right we drifted away from the main topic. But I guess the connection is that the aviation industry in Latin America is, in general, in a weak
: Well, you know, it's Navega the one who's merging AM and MX everyday, or has someone that he knows that will tell him very soon that both companies ar
: Guys, as I see you have mostly concentrated the thread on deep South America, so I'd like to add something that I think is worth discussing... In a qu
: Eddie, I think your comments on JJ make sense, I just would like to add that KK is gone since 2000. It was the feeder arm of TAM and was integrated in
: AR385, allow me to quote you: "Another thing is, why the heck, in a country with over 100 million people only 20 million a year or so use air transpor
: SoAmSky If you read the post, the quote "France embrace Europe in the 1950's" is not mine, it's originally from EddiDude.
: Some Information about TACA for you guys: TACA (formally known as Grupo Taca) was formed in the 90's when TACA International Airlines of El Salvador b
: Oh, I see MarcoPolo, thx for the correction. I thought KK was the airline code for Transportes Aéreos del Mercosur. Do you think, then, that PZ would
: Hi CRFLY, Just one question, why "the FAA don't like the idea of a whole airline, and it's treated every airline that flies into the US separately: Av
: On post 66 MIA starts with "For thos who are attacking Venezzuelan civil aviation..." I want to make it clear that nobody is "attacking" anything. Thi
: My apologies. I wasnt being sensitive. I hope my informed opinion added to the conversation. I just wanted to dispell any half truths or lies about Ve
: SoAmSky: Well I just know that the FAA don't want to have mixed crews, mixed fleet of planes and all that with TACA... Costa Rica is Category One for
: The was a story here in Brazil some time last year that when Varig and TAM began their codesharing, Varig intended to fly to Miami using TAM's A330s.
: Eddie, O/D traffic from ASU is very small ( I don't have figures though), but PZ carries more passengers on ASU-EZE than ASU-GRU. AA flies daily from
: MarcoPolo, Eddie PZ, or LAPSA, had for a few years a very neat operation in Mexico City. I'm talking mid to late 80's. You flew from MEX to ASU on the
: Marcopolo, I remember reading about that story. I guess this is exactly what happened now. RG flights must be with RG painted aircraft.
: Interesting, AR385, I had no idea LAP flew between Asuncion and MEX. There is no traffic between the two points, so I assume that their main objective
: LAP also flew from Asuncion to Frankfurt!
: Other than TAM (Mercosur), is there a full-frills airline in Paraguay with an established route system (and perhaps flights to cities abroad)?
: Nope! Paraguay is maybe the only country in South America without a national airline. Even Bolivia and Guyana have their own, and they're poorer too.
: Hey everyone: It seems as though the different opinions of everyone who has posted on this thread, each and everyone, make sense and have interesting
: Thank you De Leo for starting an interesting thread on Latin America. We are sometimes forgotten here. Funny thing is, a few of the World's most tradi
: FMAL I agree. A.net has a news overload from the USA. There are many interesting topics to be delved into in Latin America: LAB and VARIG for one, Ven
: FMAL: My pleasure! As LVZXV says there is an overload of US news. Of course they are the most numerous members on this forum, but its good to talk abo
: LatinPlane, Thanks for the correction, I was confused about LAP or LAPSA. I guess in this case it was LAP. But yes, they had a very neat operation and
: LAP flew to SRZ (then: Trompillo/Santa Cruz), with Lockheed Electras and-or 707's. They were very well known to have amazing delays, sometimes of hour
: I think TAM became the world's leader in finding good ways to use the Fokker 100! Did you guys read on another thread that Iberia is moving their Miam
99 BWIA 772
: LeoDF Cubana does not really have much if any Caribbean routes. In terms of size Air Jamaica has a much bigger fleet and serve more destinations than
: FMAL: Aerolineas was going to open a hub at Miami, and in the late '90s it based a leased 727-23 (N1993) there to fly to Punta Cana and St. Maarten. Y
: The future of Latin America? It has none!!! We are doomed.
: LVZXV, about those possible codeshare flights to Mexico from MIA you mention, would that be MIA-CUN and MIA-MEX or only MIA-CUN? Would AA be the carri
: AR would probably prefer to do both MEX and CUN, the former being more of a business destination and the latter a tourist one, but I think CUN will co
: To Luisca Where did you get that "financial" information about Taca. I taked with the General Manager of Taca Costa Rica just few days ago, during a f
: Hugojimenez, Copa still a Panamanian airline, Continental have a participation of 49%. All the pilots in Copa are Panamanian, the flight attendants ar
: Aerolineas has also just signed an agreement with a local domestic airline in New Zealand so that it has feeder traffic/more destinations within NZ, s
: TBCITDG: I'm curious. What was your source that confirmed American Falcon's suspension of scheduled flights? One Argentine newspaper says they only ha
: Wher do you think IB is going to relocate? I have read the thread and it say that somewhere in Central America and Cancun too are candidates. In my op
: About what some of you wrote about Venezuela's civil aviation: You're absolutely right, everything in Venezuela is getting worst each day because of t
: BWIA 772: Sorry to hear the news from BWIA. But if it helps in anyway, most people in Latin America do not know how to make business or don't recogniz
: guys, I must agree this topic is very interesting and represents a welcome change from the endless u.s. threads about NW and their DC9s, B6, UAs new l
: LVZXV: Aca te mando, I found the info in MAR 01 Newspaper La Nacion. I actually found the article in salvemosaerolineas.com.ar, under "other airlines"
: LeoDF, Cmte. Amaro Rolim, the late chairman of TAM was one of these true aviation guys, sadly he's gone now. Did you know that Neeleman lived in Braz
: To Copa737 Since CO owns 49% of CP shares, entitles CO as a major shareholder of CP. CO rules all CP policies, just because they take most important d
: Komododx, I really could give a s...where does IB relocate. However, you are saying that we are babbling about it. The information was published in on
: really don't understand how you can say that MIA is the "capital city" of Latin America. Regardless of the fact it is not in Latin America, it acts as
: MAH4546, The list you produced is a list of mostly American companies. I find it very hard from going from a list of American companies that serve a c
: MIA is a secret capital city of Latin America from my point of view too. Companies from Europe also like to settle there (banks, traders, etc.) becaus
: Marcopolo747: Yes, I was reading not long ago the biography of Neeleman and if I recall right he was like a missioner or something like that in his ea
: 123, Well, if you put like that, yes, you are wrong. Everything you say can also be applied to Atlanta or Houston. I have no issue being it: "The Lati
: Some pics from the past. Let's hope that the carriers of today, don't end up in the future like these great ones from the past: View Large View Medium
: read my post, my point exactly. And I said Mexicans, not people from Mexico City. It is not just people from Mexico City, it is Mexicans in general. A
: You need to read my post correctly, MAH. You are either writing nonsense or you have not read it right. In any case, what are you trying to do? convin
: I am really surprised by the lack of LCCs in Latin America. It is one of the main reasons why so many monopolies are forming (TACA, AR/AU in Argentina
: LVZXV, I read some Colombian pilots will launch a new international LCC airline named Fenix. I think, they're in talks with the Aeronautical authority
: LVZXV, Since you mentioned LCCs and GOL, I just read yesterday that in 2003 it became the 3rd. largest in Brazil in number of passangers pushing VASP
: I read that in December, I think, Gol's red-eye load factors was at 98%, and the company was pushing for a permanent authorization to operate these fl
: LVZXB, You seem to bevery knowledgeable about the Peruvian aviation market. I'm impressed. So what do you think will happen with all the competition i
: AR385, I don't think Gol plans to go International right now. They were going to fly a few charter flights to EZE a while back, not sure if that happe
: I know I referred about 60 posts above to a separate thread in connection with aviation in Mexico but, if I may, moving back to the Mexican market, wh
: AR385: I'm no expert on the Peruvian market, but if AeroPeru and Faucett have both gone phut then, from an outsider's perspective, I'd say TANS Peru i
: In the early 90s VASP was "privatised" and bought by a scoundrel who purchased also LAB, Ecuatoriana and small regional Argentinian airline TAN(Transp
: Eddiedude: About Mexico: I think the most profitable ones are Aviacsa and Magnicharters. For me, Magnicharters is always underestimated, but the truth
: MArcoPolo747, FMAL and LVZXV Thanks guy for your response Eddiedude, I believe Aviacsa is a case in itself. The routes MTY-ORD and MTY-LAX, were start
: Wow AR385 and LeoDF, thanks for all your insights. I did not know about the legal troubles of Aviacsa's ex-CEO and I honestly hope that such troubles
: Eddiedude, Yes, Morales has been in SAT almost 4 years now. To those who say LAtin AMerica does not have good managers for their airlines, this guy ha
: A local newspaper here in Rio (O Globo) printed out a report on the growth of the LCCs in the World, and of course Gol here in Brazil. This report quo
: FMAL, How is VARIG run now? Is it still a foundation? and what happened to their MD11 with their tailstrike in MEX?
: Still a foundation (Rubem Berta Foundation) and I'm pretty sure the MD-11 is back in operation. I didn't get much news on the MD-11 because when the t
: Ar385, and what happened to their MD11 with their tailstrike in MEx? RG MD11 PP-VTF is STD at MX's mx base at MEx. Douglas/Boeing people was here a we