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Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04  
User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2950 posts, RR: 7
Posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7850 times:
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Does any know whether a near miss report is/has been submitted for an incident at Manchester yesterday morning involving a Ryanair B732 and a My Travel A321.
The Ryanair plane landed on 06R shortly after a Turkish B738 and proceeded at high speed to vacate. The Turkish aircraft was held short of 06L but the Ryanair plane just darted across 06L without a bye or leave !
At the time the MYT A321 was given take off clearance and was rolling on 06L and to avoid collision with the RYR B732 necessitated not just an abort but a full blow emergency stop smoking brakes the works !
It then had to taxi off the runway and initially taxied back to begin another attempt but having stopped short of the runway clearly the brake were so hot it returned to stand and was delayed for several hours after that !
THIS type of incident was forecast by many when the staggered runway scheme was proposed !
Who is to blame RYR Manchester Tower Ground etc....
It was quite major incident I my eyes and there were a number of spotters and others that simply just missed it !
But any ways any professionals ATC/MYT/RYR knows any thing ?

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineA3204eva From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1060 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7756 times:

I was spotting at Manchester yesterday but I didn't get there till 12:30 so I missed it.  Sad

I also had my digital camera with me- got some photos of Concorde parked at a gate.  Smile



"They have lady pilots......... they're not that good, but they have 'em"
User currently offlineN754pr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7717 times:

Thats another reason not to fly Ryanair!!

User currently offlineVoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2060 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7664 times:

Might want to check Pprune.org
Doesn't sound good. Especially after that fuss a year or two ago where it was said FR pilots were under pressure to taxi fast.



` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlineTravelmark From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7655 times:

what does "not flying Ryanair" have to do with the situation, beg my ignorance.

User currently offlineBMIFlyer From UK - England, joined Feb 2004, 8810 posts, RR: 58
Reply 5, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7651 times:

Was the Ryanair Aircraft told to hold short of 6L??




Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 47
Reply 6, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7575 times:

BMIflyer,
Unless specifically mentioned on taxi charts (like for the parallel runway in LGW or VCE for instance, which are used as taxiways), you do not cross any runway (not even one that is not in use) without positive crossing instruction from the TWR!
And this is not a 'Good Operating Practice', it is a MUST, its the LAW...
With your car, you stop for a red traffic light, with a plane, you stop for a holding point at a runway.



User currently offlineFlyingColours From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2315 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7418 times:

Shocking,

Any idea what the reg's are particularly the MYT A321.

Crossing runways without permission, especially the active I can sense some wings being clipped.

What about TCAS, I know the MYT crew would have seen it visually through the windows and then on TCAS complete with Aural alarms but what about the FR, surley they would have seen it in there since I thought all aircraft in the UK need TCAS.

Ryanair pilots used to be known for speeding on the taxiways all the time, thats where the idea of them being in a big hurry. Then again there are those schedules to keep. But crossing the active......

Did they swap aircraft afterwards, since I would have figured that the A321 went tech since they heated the brakes a bit.

At least they stopped, MAN should not be known for two bad accidents, its bad enough with the one.

Phil
FlyingColours



Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
User currently offlineCol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2092 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7273 times:

I was at MAN yesterday travelling back home to USA. I could not believe the whole situation. The 321 was G-SMTJ, it came back and parked next to the BMI 320 I was travelling down to LHR on.

The Turkish 738 landed on 06R and was followed by the Ryanair 732. The TK landed and taxied off the earlier runway turn off, while the Ryanair continued at high speed to runway end and shot in front of TK, and boy was he travelling, never seen anything like it. The FR 732 just continued taxiing at high speed right across 06L, making the MYT 321 brake hard on it's take off run, with a huge amount of smoke coming from the brakes themselves. Unfortunately for our FR friend there was a European 742 held up in front of him, so he did not get too far after clearing the runway. The 321 did attempt to go to the runway again, but returned back to it's original stand. It was still there when we left.

I don't know if it was air traffic error or FR, but from my view point this guy was a danger to himself and the pax. The speed at which he turned the plane must have put a huge amount of pressure on the nose gear. If I were MYT I would get a lawyer on this incident. Don't thing I will use that airline, my life is important to me.

Col


User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2950 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7163 times:
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Col
Thats exactly what I saw having actually arrived on the very BMI airbus FROM Heathrow and parked on Pier B coz stand 18 was occupied by another sick BMI plane !
Had to travel to domestic on a left hand drive Bus !
Oh and traveled back on The new A319 on BD595 later the same day.
I agree i'll be sticking with BMI rather than RYR myself as well least you still get a bacon and egg panini even in steerage on the early morning flights.


User currently offlineCol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2092 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7089 times:

Rutankrd

We only got a bag of pretzels on our flight. The 321 on the stand I believe was hit by ground equipment. All the pax transferred to our flight where possible. I did not realise BMI had 319 yet, beats those old 737's they used to use. Heathrow was the usual dump, keep saying I will use MAN as my gateway, but VS from Boston was better than using BA/AA with their old 763's into MAN.

I have never seen an aircraft move that quick on the ground except for take off, is FR always like this?



User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4041 posts, RR: 53
Reply 11, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6793 times:

When I worked at MAN I was driving along the airside road past the FLS hanger when this FR 732 came shooting past heading to T2. I thought I wonder how fast he's going so I accelerated until I was travelling at the same speed then looked at the speedometer. I was going 45mph !!!!.

This kind of speed is pretty normal for FR, but I personally think it is far too fast when taxiing especially at busy airports like MAN.

 Smile



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineLondoncenter From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6671 times:

When I was training to be an air traffic controller I spent 6 months in manchester tower, and yes, FR do taxi with "the pedal to the metal" so to speak. They are on very tight schedules and due to no replacement aircraft being available most of the time, a 10 min delay on a flight means a 10 min delay on all their flights with that particular aircraft for the whole day. Which isn't good for PR or their stats! When I was their I never saw ryanair race over the active like that but they would pften call for departure clearance on the delivery freq as they were still taxiing to gate! As a little bit of fun we'd sometimes route them behind a slow PIA 747 just to see the air rage tail-gateing that went on!

User currently offlineLondoncenter From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6626 times:

And just to point out that phraseology procedures at MAN governing taxiing to a runway state that the taxiway be given first then the holding point and then the instruction to hold short of the runway:

e.g. taxiway Delta, holding point delta 1, hold short of runway 24R/06L.

These procedures were designed to specifically point out to pilots that the hold short instruction was most important by placing it at the end of the sentence. These instruction, as far as I'm aware, are specific to MAN and were brought in with the opening of the second runway.


User currently offlineAirplanepics From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2003, 2729 posts, RR: 41
Reply 14, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6541 times:

What was the reg of the FR plane?


-Pics



Simon - London-Aviation.com
User currently offlineShankly From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 1538 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6359 times:

There have been a few accidents over the years, notably to a Caravelle and a DC-8 where "hot" brakes caused an in-flight fire leading to the destruction of the aircraft in question.

Its first worth noting that most FR flights involve short taxi runs at low utilization airports. But given FR pilots undoudted and well documented high-speed driving abilities, what's is the relative risk of over-doing the brakes on a swift out-bound taxi run at say a busy and long distance taxi airport like MAN, perhaps exacerbated by maybe poor viz inducing the constant braking, which leads to something nasty burning in the wheelwells shortly after departure?



L1011 - P F M
User currently offlineDemoose From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 1952 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 5689 times:

As I expected, the Manchester Evening News have got their hands on this story now, and their dramatisation of events can be read here

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/news/stories/Detail_LinkStory=83120.html

Their story contains little fact, mostly opinions and eyewitness accounts from unnamed sources, most likely some of their story came from this thread.


"A source at the air traffic control tower at Manchester Airport confirmed both aircraft were on the runway at the same time when they should not have been. Another airport source told the MEN that the MyTravel jet had reached 100mph before the pilot slammed on the brakes.

Ryanair today said air traffic control was responsible for the incident...

...Keith Doherty, a sales manager from London, told a plane-spotters' website: "To avoid collision necessitated not just an abort, but a full-blown emergency stop (with) smoking brakes - the works!

This type of incident was forecast by many when the staggered runway scheme was proposed." Mr Doherty added: "It was quite (a) major incident in my eyes."

...Another eye-witness told the website: "I could not believe the whole situation...

"...boy was he travelling, never seen anything like it. The FR 732 (Ryanair) just continued taxiing at high speed right across 06L (runway one), making the MYT 321 (MyTravel) brake hard on its take-off run, with a huge amount of smoke from the brakes."

A for Ryanair spokesman said: "A Ryanair aircraft was one of the airlines involved. The aircraft was complying with air traffic control instructions."

And a spokesman for MyTravel said: "We can confirm that a MyTravel aircraft carried out an aborted take-off for safety reasons."


Mark






Take a ride...fly across the sky
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2066 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5598 times:

Rutankrd and Col, nice to see the Manchester Evening News just lifting your comments from this website and giving your real name and occupation! Nothing like investiagtive journalism eh!


Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2066 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5409 times:

See the BBC has picked up on this now, though without widely quoting AirNet members!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/3534245.stm



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineFLYtoEGCC From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 947 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5326 times:

Ryanair are claiming that their pilot was acting on ATC instructions. However, do pilots not look left and right before crossing an active runway? Common sense dictates that if you're crossing an active runway, even if you have clearance, you would check to make sure nothing's coming, as human error can occur. If the A321 was up to 100-120mph, it must have been a fair way into its take-off roll, and surely the FR pilots would have seen it coming if they'd looked and not taxied out on to 6L/24R.
Not trying to blame anyone here, it's a genuine question.

FR pilots do taxi fast, it is very noticeable on board.



Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away...
User currently offlineMhodgson From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2002, 5047 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5188 times:

I just saw a report of the incident on BBC North West Tonight (with a correspondant live from Manchester, and film taken through the fence - still with fence in shot!!!), apparantly the controller in question has been suspended pending investigation.


No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
User currently offlineCol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2092 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5089 times:

I do not believe the FR pilot would have looked, he was travelling fairly fast, even if he would have seen the 321 stopping would have been difficult.

If i'd have known I'd be in the UK press I would have spiced it up a bit, FR A380 and MYT 744 that sort of thing!



User currently offlineFLYtoEGCC From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 947 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4886 times:

"I do not believe the FR pilot would have looked, he was travelling fairly fast..."

Is there a standard taxi speed limit at airports, or does it vary from airport to airport? If Ryanair are continually breaking speed limits to aid fast turnaround times, they are obviously putting cost before safety, and the relevant authorities should fine them to deter them from doing it in the future. Fortunately the actions of the MyTravel pilot prevented a very serious accident. Another time, they might not have been so lucky. Imagine if he'd taxied across a fully-laden A330 or 747 on its takeoff roll - would one of those stopped in the same time as the A321 did? The pilot of an aircraft should be aware of what's going on around him at all times.

I'm not blaming Ryanair totally for this incident, indeed it appears that the controller is responsible - but common sense needs to be applied. Is it really wise to go barging across an active runway without taking so much as a glance, even if you have been cleared?



Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away...
User currently offlineMhodgson From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2002, 5047 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4802 times:

AFAIK there is a speed limit of 20kts on the ground at airports, and 40 I think on high speed taxiways. However it seems extremely unlikely that FR would adhere to these as I highly doubt MAN will introduce speed cameras.


No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
User currently offlineFLYtoEGCC From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 947 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4741 times:

"I highly doubt MAN will introduce speed cameras."

Don't be too sure... there's speed cameras on practically every road in this country, it can only be a matter of time before the police discover airports could be rich pickings! Big grin

Seriously though, if an aircraft is taxiing too fast, isn't it the responsibility of ATC or Ground Control to tell the pilot to slow down? If the aircraft was airborne and the pilot broke a speed restriction and consequently caused danger, ATC would tell him to slow down. Do the same rules not apply on the ground?



Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away...
25 FlyingColours : In relation to the Speed Cameras - Wait for them to install them and then decide to point them at a runway, airlines would loose millions. In relation
26 Londoncenter : The ryanair pilot may well have looked and not seen the A321, the runway at MAN is nowhere near level, if you stand at one end you wouldn't be able to
27 Post contains images A340600 : In relation to the Speed Cameras - Wait for them to install them and then decide to point them at a runway, bloody 'ell airlines would loose millions.
28 Post contains images FLYtoEGCC : Imagine if they put speed cameras at DUB and STN taxiways... FR wouldn't just go bust, they'd be absolutely anniahilated in a matter of hours... (Sorr
29 Post contains links Geoffm : LondonCentre - are you sure? Doesn't look very humpy to me, assuming the labels to these pictures are correct. http://www.airliners.net/open.file/5100
30 FlyingColours : Geoff - The runway in the first image is 06R/24L not the runway in question. The second image is taken from about half way along 24R/06L, but it does
31 Geoffm : I went through hundreds of pictures to try to find a decent picture of 06L, the best of which I could find is in the 2nd link. Sorry, but I'm afraid I
32 Post contains images GKirk : With regards to MAN runway 6L/24R - The bump on that thing is massive
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