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PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico  
User currently offlineAirnondo From Moldova, joined May 2000, 241 posts, RR: 1
Posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2899 times:

Could anyone give an update on how the PDX-FRA-PDX and the Mexican flights are doing.
Last I heard the FRA flight was doing very decent, and the Mexican flights were getting shuffled around to various Mexican airports? (typical of Mexicana)

Any new information? Any trip reports on either?

Thanks, Nondo

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKwbl From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 444 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2818 times:

the LH flights are doing OK but the loads were not good in January-somewhere in the 64% range though the cargo is still good. They were down to 3x weekly during Feb but are back up to 5 for March and then will daily in April. As for MX, the loads are improving but still do not appear to be very strong-as much as I hate to say it, I would not be surprised if MX is gone fairly soon.

User currently offlineAs739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6126 posts, RR: 23
Reply 2, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2804 times:

Unfortunatly I have to back what kwbl said about MX. I spoke with a Mexicana employee who helped open the station. She told me the same, that loads have not cut it and don't be surprised if they pull out of PDX. I don't know anything about LH so I can not help you there.
ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineLeneld From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 606 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2775 times:

Maybe these airlines just need to move up north to Seattle.. I'm sure thier passenger counts would improve greatly there. The reality is Portland just cannot support International flights and the city is failing domestically also. No one want to travel here. I'm sure Northwest will eventually leave Portland as well in about a year.

User currently offlineKwbl From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 444 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2758 times:

Leneld-I think your statement is a bit over the top. MX is doing poorly (IMO), because of competition to Mexico. Many from PDX still fly AS or HP because they can fly to resort destinations direct (one-stop service). Also, MX is only 3x per week. LH appears to be fairly satisfied with the market at this time-They will be back to daily for the next 6 months and then we'll see. If LH thought they would do better at SEA, I am sure they would have gone their. Don't forget that SEA already has BA, SAS & NW flying direct to Europe. Also, don't forget that the PDX market feeds SEA flights. You have posted many times that AS "ignores" PDX and I tend to agree with you on that one but remember they feel they can get PDX people to fly QX up to SEA. If someone begins to infringe on AS routes out of PDX, you will see AS react by adding flights-especially to the east. PDX can support these flights-the only question is will they. As for NW leaving in a year, I am not sure what you are using to base your opinions on for that one. I personally think NW will be the most succesful of the 3.

User currently offlineLeneld From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 606 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2718 times:

Actually I was being really sarcastic. For some reason when it come to Portland, most of the posting are so negative about our city and its flight potentials. Sometime I leave this forum thinking that there are a lot of member here that really have a dislike for PDX. I'm probably one of the most passionate and pro Portland supporter in this forum. I do agree with you though. The real issue isn't the fact that Portland cannot support these flights. If people refuse to change their flying habits and continue to use these other airlines its inevitable that airlines like Mexicana will fail here. Northwest will probably do well here with the feed it will receive from Alaska and Horizon and I still hold high hopes even for Lufthansa.

User currently offlineKwbl From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 444 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2690 times:

Agree with you there Leneld. I find it interesting that currently SEA has around 14 daily nonstops to NYC and PDX has 1 (2 in summer). However the O& D numbers are roughly 2 to 1. SMF has 2/3 of the O & D number to NYC but has the same number flights. Why is that? Most of SEA markets are about 2 times as large as Portland's but the number of flights are far greater from SEA-especially to PHL, BOS, MCO, JFK etc where PDX has zero nonstop flights. Just seems odd to me.

User currently offlineLeneld From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 606 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2664 times:

Kwl..You have just summed up what I been saying on this forum for such a long time. I understand that Seattle should have more flights than Portland, since Seattle has roughly 24,000,000+ passengers a year to Portland 13,000,000. Wouldn't you think we would have at least half of the routes currently being served from Seattle. We don't even have that..Maybe we need to build our own cruise ship teminal in downtown Portland. Who know....

User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4344 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2644 times:

Actually Leneld, you've hit on a big piece of the problem. It isn't just the raw numbers that dictate which cities are flown from which airports, it's also the roles each city plays in the northwest. Portland, for the most part, is an O&D destination. Yes there is a small amount of feed into PDX that goes on to Coos Bay/North Bend, etc., but for the most part, if you're flying into Portland you're ending your trip. That has been the case since the area was settled. PDX was never a transportation hub, not for rail, sea or now air. SEA on the other hand, grew up as being a gateway. And over the years, continues to add to that, as indicated by the explosion of cruise traffic that Seattle will see this year.

None of this is to say that PDX couldn't support one or two non-stop flights a day to more destinations, it probably could. But the airlines, especially in this day and age, are focused on deploying their assets where they will get the most return. The perfect example of this is Southwest. Southwest is known for 'connecting the dots' between stations, purposely avoiding hub flying. So while WN obviously sees a market in PDX (else they wouldn't be there), they see other new routes as providing a better return, so you don't get the new service you crave.

And to close, before you lump me in with those that "hate" Portland, you couldn't be farther from the truth. I love the city, and actually like PDX more than SEA (at least until the renovations are done). But economic reality is economic reality, as long as the Puget Sound remains the transportation hub of the PNW, SEA is going see a disproportionate share of n/s flights as compared to PDX.

Rgds
Duane



"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2606 times:

PDX was never a transportation hub

interesting....

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User currently offlineCoronado990 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1597 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2577 times:

PDX, TPA, SAN...

They're all in the 13-15 million pax category...deserving their own intercontinental service...but situated near larger airports such as SEA, MCO and LAX. We're too far to be considered an alternative and too close to warrant it's own service. It's a tough row to hoe.

For example, I counted 8-9 non-stops flights a day from LAX-LHR this summer. Granted San Diego is only one-fourth the size of the L.A. Metro area, but it should deserve at least one of those flights. And that's assuming one-half of those LAX flights are serving onward connecting passengers to the smaller communities around California (including a large sum to SAN, BTW). They'll just squeeze more flights into the TBIT somehow while the new international gates at SAN sit empty. For one of the most populated area's in the country, it is absurd for Southern California to only have one intercontinental airport. Spread it around man!!!



Uncle SAN at your service!
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2563 times:

BA just withdrew LHR-SAN.... so, so much for that at this point.

User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4344 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2547 times:

Big difference between one airline at the airport having an international gateway for a relatively short period and the entire area being a transportation hub, which is what I was saying. And actually, DL's experience is exactly what I was talking about. Because there was neither enough local O & D or feed from other markets to support it, Dl's PDX gateway never performed the way DL wanted it to, so they reallocated the planes, crews, etc., to markets and destinations that provided a greater return.

Again, I'm not saying PDX doesn't deserve broader coverage than its got, and couldn't support some additional service, but as Coronado990 pointed out, PDX is in a tough position, and until something drastically changes up in SEA, it's not likely to happen.



"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineCoronado990 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1597 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2536 times:

BA just withdrew LHR-SAN.... so, so much for that at this point.

I heard they couldn't keep it up!...They had to withdraw.  Big thumbs up

Oh wait...that was Concorde.



Uncle SAN at your service!
User currently offlineAirnondo From Moldova, joined May 2000, 241 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2520 times:

PDX is a transit hub for air cargo, rail, and to a degree, shipping (with grain shipments coming down the Columbia on barges, and shipping out of PDX to Asia, etc).
Other than this, I agree with pretty much what has been said.

Any more specifics (or stats) on the LH flight?


User currently offlineRamprat74 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1531 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2509 times:

I work at PDX. I rather see the LH flight up in SEA. As soon as the companies, city and airport stop giving LH incentives. What is LH going to do then? They would be better off in SEA. The SEA market has more O&D traffic. It would be easier for them to fill the flight without incentives.

The Port of Portland is a joke. I would love to see LH close up shop in PDX.


User currently offlineKwbl From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 444 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2480 times:

Ramprat-Why would you "love" to see LH fail at PDX. Using the logic that PDX has less O & D, then why doesn't PDX just close the whole airport and send everyone up via Amtrak?. SEA already has 3 daily nonstops to Europe (not including Aeroflot) in addition to the many connections available thru YVR, ORD, CVG, MSP, DTW etc. I agree with you the Port does some weird stuff (high landing fees etc) but more important than your dislike of the Port of Portland is the Oregon economy - LH is very important to the region from an economic standpoint. If LH does close shop here, it would be very bad for the local economy and not something I would want to see. Another question, and I am not trying to flame here, but if you hate the Port of Portland so much, why not work somewhere where they do not have have influence on your job.

Airnondo- I am being lazy so I cannot look up the numbers and give you an exact statistical breakdown but LH was around an 85% load factor for the calendar year 2003. They also carrier a very substantial amount of cargo which far exceeded LH's expectations (from an article I read several months ago). The January number were closer to 64% but cargo appeared strong on the 5x weekly flights. I would guess February's numbers will be low since they were at 3x per week for that month. They are going back to daily so I would anticipate the LF to go back up to the 80 to 90% range for April through October. Then we'll see if LH keep daily year-round or reduces frequency again.

The real key to keep LH here is to get people to use the flight instead of connecting somewhere the USA


User currently offlineRamprat74 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1531 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2441 times:

Kwbl

Its just a sore subject with me. The city of Portland gives all this money to LH when its schools are falling apart. They were going to cut 18 days off the school year. They were going to get rid of all the sport programs. The economy is still bad in Oregon with the LH flight. I hate to say. All airports like the Port.


User currently offlineKwbl From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 444 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2422 times:

Ramprat- I cannot remember the details of the incentives for LH but I do not believe the city of Portland or the Port actually gave money to LH. They waived landing fees and leases on space and the state chipped in some money to promote tourism. I think the only thing I saw was that if LH was to drop below daily flights (which they did), they were going to have the other carriers pay more (which is really stupid-maybe that is why every major west coast airport has jetBlue but not PDX?). The city of Portland has many problems that go way deeper than what is going on at the Port of Portland-primarily bad leadership. I am familiar with the plight of schools in our great state but I do not think it's really a problem of not enough money but rather tremendous waste and excessive administration. Notice that the schools were screaming that they did not have enough money, yet for the most part, they have continued to operate, programs are still going, and some school districts (forest grove and Salem come to mind) found additional dollars after measure 30 went down in flames. The economy is improving, albeit slowly so hoprefully this will help ALL of parties (LH, schools, more flights etc...)

User currently offlineZonks From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2354 times:

Right, so lets say LH does leave PDX. Do you really believe because of that happening, Portland Public Schools will suddenly get more money?

I still don't see the logic in wishing for something (the departure of LH) that would damage our economy here. I don't know how much money LH brings in, but I'm sure it's something.


User currently offlineRamprat74 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1531 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2319 times:

Right, so lets say LH does leave PDX. Do you really believe because of that happening, Portland Public Schools will suddenly get more money?

No, I didn't say that. I said the city of Portland probably added to the incentive fund to lure LH into PDX. The POP is like the mafia. They charge the other airlines higher rent for a year so they could give a newcomer free rent. They charge the airport retailers rent plus take 10% of their sales. They charge every employee $30.00 a month to park in their employee parking lot. Then they build it 10 miles away.

I'm just saying, the POP and city of Portland needs to get their priorities straight. They give money to LH, build a 5 million dollar riverfront walkway. Then they say they have to cut back in the schools and police. I will step down off my soapbox now.


User currently offlineLeneld From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 606 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2310 times:

Ramprat74..Here's a little word of advise..Move...............Try Seattle.

User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2301 times:

Specific to the LH flight:
- Actual revenue passenger miles?
- Cargo revenue vs. passenger revenue? (I'll bet cargo is much higher)
- Ave. # of passengers during the winter season?

Remember, LH started this almost a year ago, so the people flying on it druing the past 11 1/2 months are using the tickets that were purchased (at a discount?) as part of a block sale to several different local companies, at a set rate, and LH is benefitting from incentives offered by the port. So yes, the first year of operations will look good. The key statistic to look at will be revenues and expenses once the incentives disappear and the original ticket blocks are used up. Only then will we see the true performance of this service, and only then can we make a determination of its long-term viability.

Remember also that the economies of both Oregon and Germany are still in recession mode right now. If the economy of one or both improves, then the long term outlook for PDX keeping the service is good. If the status quo remains in place, hmmm...not good. There is a lot of political pressure in Oregon to keep this LH flight and make is successful, so I would expect the Port to modify/renew to whatever ends necessary to keep it. Oregon has closer business ties with Germany than the Seattle area does, and I'd be curious as to how many people from the SEA area fly to PDX to catch this PDX-FRA, avoiding the hassle of going through YVR. In SEA, LH would have to compete against BA, SAS, and NW. By sticking with PDX, they can serve the US Pacific Northwest knowing there will always be some incentives offered from the city, not to mention no other competition for nonstop service to Europe.

Here's what Oregon/Portland can do to increase their chances of keeping the flight:
- aggressively market Oregon/SW Washington as a tourist destination in the FRA, MUC and Berlin markets, especially the natual outdoors and recreational opportunities. Germans LOVE the outdoors, and if marketed correctly at a good price, Oregon is a perfect place to come visit. An hour to the ocean and mountains!
- Promote Oregon's tax structure to German companies, i.e. lower property taxes and NO SALES TAX...compared with WA and CA, Oregon clearly has the advantage.
- growth potential of Oregon's agribusiness industry, not to mention wineries/microbreweries.

Just my .02.



User currently offlineZonks From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2245 times:

Ramprat74:
Right, I think we can all agree that the City of Portland could certainly do a better job in running the city, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that I hope LH leaves.

Like others have mentioned on this thread, it's not that clear as to how much the Port spent to attract LH here, but I personally think that it was a good thing to get them in here.

Portland's a great town and I'm sure all of here just want to see it reach its true potential. We just have different ideas as to how that could be done.

Cheers,
Kevin.


User currently offlineAirnondo From Moldova, joined May 2000, 241 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2221 times:

move to Seattle....Never!

25 Airnondo : Hey, Zonks, Leneld, Ramprat, Surprised to see so many of you Portlanders still up-- Great to see interest for NW airports back again to A.net, been go
26 Post contains images Ramprat74 : I just read this in the paper today. The Port is going to move AA to the C concourse to make room for the bus stop for connecting NW passengers. It wi
27 Flyboy80 : down here in EUG... we have recently got some growth as well... Half of our market place uses PDX... Which Kinda sucks... however United Express is ad
28 Leneld : Does anyone know why Portland hasn't received 1 additional service this year domestically?
29 Zonks : Leneld: Maybe it's shenanigans such as the raising of rent that has made domestic carriers think twice about starting service to PDX. For AA, though,
30 Flashmeister : Can someone post the link to the AA moving to C story? I fail to see why they'd need to move AA over there just for the bus stop. How can that take up
31 Mymiles2go : I think too many people try to draw and analyze too much based on simple population numbers. Assuming that if there are 2X in Y city, that there for i
32 JeckPDX : Not to stray horribly off subject but to just set apart some strong OPINIONS! Mymiles: I'm not so sure about your your statement. Ramprat: The POP doe
33 Kwbl : MyMiles2go-Though some people refer simply to population as a basis of flights, I've been using the DOT statistics for city pairs. 4th quarter (and I
34 Mymiles2go : Kwbl - I agree with you that airlines don't always guage n/s flights or even entire markets correctly. But - I believe that once a n/s flight is in a
35 Airnondo : ...a brief check of the Electronic timetable only show's between 8-9 flights a day nonstop SEA-NYC. Up to 10-12 flights during the summer. Which does
36 Kwbl : I may have been a bit high in my estimation on the SEA nonstops. Granted, I was looking at the summer schedule where JetBlue & DL are each adding a fl
37 Airnondo : Oops, in my post 2 up, " there would need to be 4-5 daily non-stops PDX-SEA in winter alone" should read 'PDX-NYC', not 'PDX-SEA'.
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