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Airbus In Latin America: Failure?  
User currently offlineLVZXV From Gabon, joined Mar 2004, 2041 posts, RR: 37
Posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3452 times:

During the next decade I believe the A320 family will achieve strong sales in the region as replacements for the 732s, 727s and DC-9s. LAN, Mexicana, TAM and TACA are already testament to this. But I do notice the widebody market is still dominated by Boeing, and has been for the last 20 years. A300 and A310 sales have been low, while the A330 and A340 (just TAM, LAN and AR so far) seems to be losing to the smaller 767. Will Airbus ever catch on?

[Edited 2004-03-11 08:10:12]


How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRoberta From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3390 times:

while the A330 and A340 (just TAM, LAN and AR so far) seems to be losing to the smaller 767

maybe you have answered your own question.


User currently offlineLVZXV From Gabon, joined Mar 2004, 2041 posts, RR: 37
Reply 2, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3362 times:

Roberta:

I emphasize "seems". I cannot see how the 767's success will be long term, or how Airbus could lose such a market.



How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
User currently offlineRoberta From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3346 times:

i was just thanking that maybe the 340 330 is the wrong size for the
s american market. do they focus on only a few long haul services which require 747's. where do TAM, LAN AR and varig typically serve l haul. are there many 777 md-11 in s america. i gather varig has both now.


User currently offlineLHcapt2007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 235 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3344 times:

Airbus forecasts a demand of a little over 1,300 planes from Latin America and the Caribbean in the coming 20 years. It is almost half of what its US rival Boeing foresees. Airbus says that even though it has had tremendous growth since opening in 1990 in Argentina, the third largest Latin American air market is suffering from a deep recession that keeps the airlines from renovating their fleets, for example.
Hopes up for A380 up since 18 of 1300 projected planes may be a380s.

regards,
LHcapt2007



TNCM
User currently offlineLHcapt2007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 235 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3313 times:

It seems that with a little research one notices the hype about airbus in latin american peaked back in the late 90s. Recent talks don't seem as promising as they did a few years ago. Even the a380 ventures in Latin America have been speculated. Given latin america's financial picture, it seems more likely that some airlines would stick to boeing for now. How about the competitors to the a320 family anyway? The 737-7,8,9 seem quite appealing.
great discussion of close competitors: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1446506/#top
LHcapt2007



TNCM
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7114 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3166 times:

Latin American carriers, with some notable exceptions (Lan) cannot afford new aircraft - Varig's 777's were largely impounded due to failure to pay leases. Argentinian carriers cannot afford new fleet, alongside those in Venezuela, and Colombia.

Expect Latin America to become a home to more DC-10's and MD-11's and older 767's for a long time to come. Short-haul replacements will probably be along the lines of the 733/4/5 replacing the DC9/732 fleets.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3119 times:

I don't think Airbus products themselves are necessarily at fault. Latin America is kind of a jet airliner graveyard, with many older airframes ending up there being operated towards the end of their useful lives. Airbus widebodies have been operated in the past by many Latin airlines, for varying lengths of time, eg

Ecuatoriana - A310
SAETA - A310 (?)
LAB - A310
VIASA - A300
VARIG - A300
Cruzeiro - A300
Aerolineas Argentinas - A310
LanChile - A340
TAM - A330


User currently offlineMarcopolo747 From Brazil, joined Mar 2001, 460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2980 times:

Roberta,

LAN-Chile flies its A340 to Europe and Australasia
TAM to Miami and Paris from GRU
AR to Australasia, US and Europe
RG flies only Boeing equipment.

BestWestern,

There were 2 cases of impounding RG 777s in 2003 that were solved the following day. RG is adding 2 more 777s to its fleet this year. (ex-BA aircraft)


User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4780 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2951 times:

I don't think it is really a matter of a sales failure, but more of a strategic mistake. Airbus has decided not to offer either a shortened A330 or updated A300/A310, meaning that the 767 is pretty much the only game in town in the 200 seat medium-long range market. It is just more a matter that many of the carriers in the region don't have as much need for an aircraft over 200 seats.



User currently offlineLHcapt2007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 235 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2895 times:

seems like an across the board verdict for airbus in latin america.
does anyone out there have any hopes for airbus?



TNCM
User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7773 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2839 times:

I think as has already been stated the market in Latin America is just not very big. There is probably a reasonable demand for small aircraft for local and regional services, but the long haul market will likely continue to be dominated by foreign carriers. Until Latin American countries can generate more wealth and be more economically and politically stable their airlines will have a hard time sustaining their own longhaul services.


Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineLVZXV From Gabon, joined Mar 2004, 2041 posts, RR: 37
Reply 12, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2755 times:

BestWestern:

You're right that more DC-10s, MD-11s, 767s, and 737-3/4/500s will end up in South America, and AR is a prime example of an airline rennovating with used aircraft. But if VARIG, for example, continues its current trend of returning 767s and MD-11s, do you think it will opt for Airbus? 777s in larger numbers sound a little expensive...



How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
User currently offlineBa319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8527 posts, RR: 54
Reply 13, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2692 times:
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One the face of it,Airbus has done very well in Latin/South america.

Since most Latin/South american carries are cash strapped it looks even better for them.

Its a difficult market place and the wide body segment is not really that big given the number of carriers.



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2660 times:

BestWestern,

COPA of Panama´s 737-700 and 800 are all brand new fresh out of the factory so not only lan can afford new planes


User currently offlineWimpycol From Netherlands, joined Aug 2001, 484 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2627 times:

Aerocondor was the first Latin carrier with the A300.

BestWestern;
When Aces Colombia was in good condition they bought 4 new A320's with 2 more new options as one arrived their fleet later on..... but wasn't it that because of bad management they finally went dead.
I think when they would have fly today, they still used their A320's.



Colombia... can't wait to be there again!!!!!!!!!!
User currently offlineLVZXV From Gabon, joined Mar 2004, 2041 posts, RR: 37
Reply 16, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2594 times:

Interesting replies! Was it LACSA of Costa Rica or LAPSA of Paraguay that had A320s?


How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7569 posts, RR: 43
Reply 17, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2538 times:

MX is supposedly negotiating the lease or acquisition of widebodies. While AM is clearly an all-Boeing carrier (the MD-8x's will be replaced with 73W's), MX could go with Airbus. Since MX is a big operator of A32x's, it is very possible that it will end up getting A330's (although reportedly the 772 is also under consideration). We should find out soon.


Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineAM772 From Mexico, joined Mar 2004, 135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2426 times:

I also think that Latin America is an all Boeing paradise, because of the populaity of the 732, many latam carriers have them and are slowly replacing them mainly with A32X because of the price that is lower than getting a B73NG, and in the long-range market, B76X's are commonly used in latams main airlines' fleets, so theres already a Boeing predom in LatinAmerica, the A34X is slowly getting all the market.
MXA346!!


User currently offlineUsatoeze From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 358 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2357 times:

The busiest widebody routes on Lat Am carriers are mostly to/from the USA, and these routes are in most cases(Not ALL) dominated by American carriers(AA especially), thereby reducing the need for so many widebodies for flag carriers of Latin American nations. If this was to change and Lat Am airlines became more known and more competitive on these busy US-LatAm routes, then I am sure that the 332 and 333 would find a few more homes. Until then, expect it to be a mixed bag.


War is a very poor political tool
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7569 posts, RR: 43
Reply 20, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2328 times:

I find it very interesting that the only route between Mexico and the U.S. in which a Mexican carrier uses a widebody is LAX-MEx (MX's 763ER), whereas many flights of U.S. carriers to CUN are on A300-600's and 767's, and a couple of AA MIA-MEx flights are also on A300-600's. The volume of air travel between the two countries is so large that using widebodies to LAX, IAH, ORD, MIA and JFK from MX), Mexico">MEX sounds very logical. Well, of course, AM and MX have a shortage of planes and their 767's have more or less the same number of seats of a typical two-class 752, so it does not make much sense.


Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineJuanr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2311 times:

Well, Avianca flies to US with a mix of Wide and Narrow bodies; you can see at MIA AV757s 767s and MD83 but the BOG-JFK route is operated with a AV763 while the CLO-MDE-JFK route is operated with a AV757.

Juan
SKBO


User currently offlineTR763 From Brazil, joined Mar 2001, 775 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2309 times:

LVZXV:
I really don´t think Varig should be getting airbuses. She´s been loyal to Boeing for some years, and with the addition of more 777 and the current 737-700 that flies in Rio-Sul (Varig subsidiary) the purchase of the european jets would not be worth. The only aircrafts in their fleet that are not Boeing, are the ERJ-145 of Rio-Sul and Nordeste.
It´s good to see this variety of types that we can choose here in S. America!
I hope this continues like this because if you have airlines that fly only Airbus, or only Boeing, one day that would become pretty boring don´t you think so?!



Transbrasil
User currently offlineMarcopolo747 From Brazil, joined Mar 2001, 460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2257 times:

LVZXV,

LR flew 320s and LAPSA operated one of SAETA's 320 when that airline had a financial interest in LAPSA, after TAM bought PZ the 320 was returned, the LR 320 is probably with TACA now.

RG is up to the neck in overdue leasing payments to Boeing and GE, even if they wanted, I don't think they can afford to go to Airbus right now. And it is not returning M11s, on the contrary, it is adding as well as 772s. All second hand from LX (M11) and BA (772). It returned all the 762s.

AA apparently is very optimistic about South America, from June 1st it will have 1 767, 2 777s and 2 332 (codeshare with JJ) daily on the GRU-MIA run alone !



User currently offlineLVZXV From Gabon, joined Mar 2004, 2041 posts, RR: 37
Reply 24, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2173 times:

TR763:

I totally agree. In Latin America you have a lot a choice, from old to new and west to east. But Brazil is so huge (and, unlike Argentina, decentralised), that I was just curious as to how the 737 (all series) could be enjoying such a success, but then again TAM offers something else: Airbuses and Fokkers.

Marcopolo747:

Thanks for clarifying the situation over RG's widebodies. It's good to see that at least one carrier wants more MD-11s! I think it's a good strategy to operate the 763, 772 and M11 together; it's the best way round the 747!!!



How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
25 Post contains images Ghost77 : About Mexico... Airbus operators.. Latur A300/ had A320 orders but were NTU. Taesa A300/ AeroCancun A300/310 Mexicana De Carga A300/ unfortunately nev
26 SoAmSky : Given the current exchange rate Euro/Dollar, Boeing products are more appealing to Latin America, mostly dolarized economies, than Airbus products. Eu
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