Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
YYZ//Airlines That Have "Bailed"  
User currently offlineFLYACYYZ From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 1914 posts, RR: 11
Posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3971 times:

While YYZ is Canada's prime gateway, I think back to many of the worlds
pre-eminent airlines that have come and gone. In a line or two, what are your thoughts regarding the "departure" of the following scheduled airlines:

TG (Thai)
SQ (Singapore)
CA (Air China)
QF (Qantas)
AI (Air India)
RJ (Royal Jordanian)
VS (Virgin Atlantic)
SR (Swissair)
IB (Iberia)
AM (Aeromexico)
AR (Aerolineas Argentinas)
RG (Varig)
VP (VASP)
AS (Alaska)

Think that's most of them.




Above and Beyond
10 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCayman From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 905 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3896 times:

Did TG actually fly into YYZ or was it just codeshare AC service?

Does RJ not fly to Canada at all any more?

That's an interesting list, and quite curious why some of them would bail out indeed.


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3867 times:

Include Sabena in Toronto.. but they are now bankrupt anyway  Big thumbs up

User currently offlineFLYACYYZ From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 1914 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3827 times:

CAYMAN -

TG serviced YYZ on the routing YYZ-SEA-TPE-BKK or was it YYZ-SEA-NRT-BKK? Temporary mental lapse. They operated 744's and MD11's on the entire stretch, and in the final days the big heavies terminated in SEA and an A310 opeated the YYZ leg. Not very productive for the 310 sitting in SEA, as the flight only operated 3/4 times weekly.

RJ bailed from YMX/YYZ in favour of DTW and ORD to supplement JFK. Their loads were always very high from Canada, must be the old "no-yield" thing.

The other "hot" vacater of YYZ (of late):

Tim Horton's (our local coffee/donut dynasty), has bailed from T-2 and snubbed T-1 New--sign of defiance to the tyrannical GTAA and their outrageous user fees/rents. Has sent shock waves through the employee group here in YYZ!!

Maybe Bob Soto's can open a Diving/Scuba shop at T-1New!!

R



Above and Beyond
User currently offlineCayman From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 905 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3778 times:

Nice Cayman reference on ya! Well done!

I am not Bob Soto's favourite person though, I act for a client suing them (its a small Island!).

I hope AC go back to the usual WEd/Su GCM service and not Sun only for summer--2x week is much more convenient. You know, a lot of locals here have had trouble catching on to ACs service because the frequency seems to change so much. I just had somebody ask me the other day "AC still fly here?" Yes, I said, 4x week at the moment.

Anyway people in Cayman usually have nice things to say about AC youll be happy to hear!



User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4784 posts, RR: 43
Reply 5, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3748 times:

SQ bailed out because AC went crying like a baby to the CAN Govt  Big grin concerning SQ eating away their transatlantic mkt share on 2 routes out of YYZ.

AIR INDIA too bailed out as they figured that ORD would be a better long term investment than YYZ. So YYZ was sacrificed in a way for ORD one can say...though Sean Mendis 747-437B would give u a more accurate account than I can on this move of AIs.

VASP bailed because of severe $$$ problems.

SWISS had no choice as it was screwed by some rules which made it fly ZRH-YUL-YYZ-ZRH so they came into an agreement with AC which stated that AC flies ZRH-YYZ-ZRH whilst SR would fly ZRH-YUL-ZRH.

VS stopped because of 9/11 and grounding of many B 742s of theirs. But they will be back in YYZ sooner than later!!!


User currently offlineGmonney From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2159 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3687 times:

I really don't expect to see VS here anytime soon. With BA and AC offering good product on the YYZ-LHR route, adding a third like VS will not be effective. As well, with Zoom, and the euro charters that are expected to return, I can't seem much more room for expansion on this route?

Grant




Drive it like you stole it!
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16259 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3635 times:

TG serviced YYZ on the routing YYZ-SEA-TPE-BKK or was it YYZ-SEA-NRT-BKK?

It was thru NRT. Fifth freedoms on all legs. The TG loads were notoriously low. Art Eggleton flew out of YYZ on the inaugural TG flight...a 742 with only 9 passengers (including him & his wife). The 313 which later handled the YYZ-SEA leg was actually an ex-WD machine.

SQ bailed out because AC went crying like a baby to the CAN Govt concerning SQ eating away their transatlantic mkt share on 2 routes out of YYZ.

That's not why SQ bailed. SQ was annoyed at the AC success on SIN-DEL-LHR which was eating SQ traffic so the SIN govt (SQ's mouthpiece) suspended the bilateral. SQ is lauded for being worldclass....but it seems that it cannot operate in a truly free market, nor does it support 5th freedoms of OTHER carriers into SIN.

AIR INDIA too bailed out as they figured that ORD would be a better long term investment than YYZ. So YYZ was sacrificed in a way for ORD one can say...

Hmmm.....I think the reasons were more assoc with a shortage of aircraft and losing money despite high loads. AI track record in Toronto (in terms of market commitment, and on time performance) were attrocious.

I really don't expect to see VS here anytime soon.

I do. VS will be back. Likely with a daily 343 as gthey take delivery of more 346's. The YYZ market is the 5th largest intercontinental one from LHR.....VS will be back. Also, AC the dominant carrier is bankrupt....this creates a market oppy for VS to take advantage of a sick (and dying?) AC.

I wonder if we will add AC to the list of bailed airlines? AC is closer to liquidation than people realize. The pension liabilities could sink AC. Which might be a healthy thing for the future Cdn airline industry. YYZ is a booming & prosperous market.....there is no reason we should not have a locally based international carrier....it could be very profitable.





Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineEx_SQer From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 1436 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3556 times:

That's not why SQ bailed. SQ was annoyed at the AC success on SIN-DEL-LHR which was eating SQ traffic so the SIN govt (SQ's mouthpiece) suspended the bilateral. SQ is lauded for being worldclass....but it seems that it cannot operate in a truly free market, nor does it support 5th freedoms of OTHER carriers into SIN.

Not quite, it is a long and complicated story, but here is the gist of it.

The first Canada-Singapore bilateral was signed in early 80s. Under this bilateral, AC could fly to SIN via any intermediate point. Restrictions were placed on which points SQ could fly through and on the nature of services to Canada (the list of restrictions is long, I won't bother to discuss them here). The Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore (CAAS) signed this agreement because it wanted to get AC into SIN and to promote SIN as a hub, even if it meant putting SQ at a disadvantage.

With this bilateral, AC started YYZ-LHR-BOM-SIN v.v. with full 5th freedoms in 1985. SQ wanted to commence services to Canada, but because of these restrictions they could not start a viable service to Canada.

SQ thus protested and CAAS canceled the bilateral. The main issue was not AC's 5th freedoms, but rather the restrrictions placed on SQ. Negotiations started, and SQ won several concessions from Transport Canada. With this, a new bilateral was signed, and SQ started SIN-SEL-YVR in 1988.

AC pulled out of SIN in 1990. After AC pulled out, SQ started SIN-VIE-AMS-YYZ vv in 1991. After this service commenced, AC protested to Transport Canada about their loss of traffic on Canada-Europe, and Transport Canada canceled the bilateral. AC's main objection was that SQ was allowed to sell a significant number of seats to/from Europe, thus affecting their market share.

This time, negotiations were unsuccessful, and SQ withdrew from YYZ in 1992. The services to YVR have continued till today, but under a "special license" in the absence of a formal bilateral.

There is a lot more to it - these are just the skeletal facts behind the dispute.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16259 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3454 times:

There is a lot more to it - these are just the skeletal facts behind the dispute.

The bottom line is that SQ would die quickly if all other nations pursued 5th freedoms as aggressively for their national carriers as SIN does for SQ. SQ is a sacred cow for the nation of Singapore.





Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineEx_SQer From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 1436 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3389 times:

Just as AC would not have been able to sustain a service to SIN for as long as it did without 5th freedoms between SIN and BOM/LHR.

Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Old Airlines That Have Never Gone Boeing? posted Mon Mar 6 2006 22:22:04 by RootsAir
Airlines That Have Replaced Non-Smoking Signs? posted Sun Dec 4 2005 06:40:56 by Mir
Airlines That Have Never Had A Crash .... posted Tue Feb 22 2005 03:46:11 by Stealthpilot
Airlines That Have Connexion Or Internet posted Fri Jun 25 2004 01:52:30 by Squirrel83
Airlines That Have Been There For You? posted Sun Dec 28 2003 12:58:18 by FlyingBanker
Airlines That Have Disposed Of The 747 posted Wed Oct 8 2003 01:11:35 by LeoDF
What Are Your Two Fav. Airlines That Have 737's? posted Mon Aug 18 2003 06:26:05 by Kevin752
Name All The Airlines That Have Flown BOS-NYC-WAS posted Mon May 12 2003 08:14:41 by Zrs70
Airlines That Have/ Had Own Architectural Termina' posted Fri May 2 2003 01:00:11 by Zrs70
Current Airlines That Have Recoverd From Chap 11 posted Fri Jan 10 2003 02:36:38 by Saab340