Klwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2481 posts, RR: 3 Posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4147 times:
We have discussed already how NWA has started DEN-LAX in retaliation for F9 starting LAX-MSP.
I travel in this market so I keep up on things.
The question is, no flights can be found for this market at NWA website after the end of August. I even called NWA reservations, and the agent could not give me any information and assumed the flights just weren't loaded in yet. But I called several weeks ago, and still nothing. Something is not right. Already going away maybe? hummm....
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 34575 posts, RR: 70
Reply 13, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3580 times:
Guys, airlines very often never say a new service is seasonal. It is a very common practice. Just check go to AA's website and look at how they never mention new service is seasonal.
One reason is to test demand to see if it can go year-round. When AA announced MIA-LIR a few months ago, they never once mentioned it was seasonal, even though it was. Demand was strong, so they made it year-round.
IndustrialPate From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3581 times:
Where is the seasonal part as "originally planned?"
The press release was issued a week before the flights were available for purchase... this very, very rarely happens and implies it was done rather quickly, so I’m not surprised it doesn’t contain detailed information.
Exactly! The flights have not even begun yet and they have already gotten the ax.
Again, what the hell does that mean? The flights are available for purchase & service is expected to begin in about six weeks… claiming the flights have gotten the ax before they’ve begun implies service will not inaugurate at all (e.g. DL offering PDX-KIX for sale for several months, then dropping service shortly before it was to begin). When NW adds seasonal service, the flights are added into their reservation systems on a seasonal basis, like these. When NW adds year-round service, they’re added into the system on a year-round basis. In the past, NW’s added seasonal service then extended it to year-round when they’ve performed well… it’s still too early to judge the DEN-LAX flights.
If it is seasonal that means it will be coming back right? Where is that information?
Not always. Some seasonal service (e.g. NRT-ANC, GCM, etc.) is evaluated on a year-to-year basis. That information won't be available for awhile.
Klwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2481 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3506 times:
The flights have not even begun yet and they have already gotten the ax."
The flights are beginning in April (not currently operating) and ending in August. It appears to be discontinued. Of course, they might be reinstated. That is what I meant.
I called reservations several weeks ago to book flights way in advance. The agent did not say they are being discontinued, but she had no idea why there were no flights. She didn't say it was seasonal either. She was totally confused.
DEN-LAX is a huge very highly travelled domestic market with consistent year round traffic. Some people fly between the two cities every week. It just seems like an odd choice for a temporary little trial run. All the seasonal routes described and discussed in the above post are the exact opposite of the DEN-LAX market. They are usually international flights, often long hauls, that are not super competitive.
"Again, what the hell does that mean?"
Isn't that kind of rude? I am just asking a question and making an observation.
Alphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 938 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3466 times:
I'd be surprised to see the NW DEN/LAX service last through August. I remember once when AA initiated MSP/LAX in the late 80s, NW retaliated with DFW/LAX. It was a disaster for AA (with NW doing better on the DFW flights than AA on the MSP flights because of Asian feed) and the flights were discontinued by both carriers after a very brief period. I think NW may be looking back to that time and thinking that a similar scenario will occur.
If F9 sticks with the MSP/LAX flights through May, I look for NW to admit defeat and utilize the Airbii on more lucrative routes. If F9 drops the service earlier, look for NW to exit DEN/LAX even sooner.
I don't, however, think F9 will drop the service. Their MSP/DEN service continually has the highest or nearly the highest load factors in their system. F9 has quietly grown from two 737 flights a day in the market to 3 319s and one 70 seat RJ over the past year and a half. They have already gained a loyal following in the MSP market, with their low fares and superior coach class service vs. NW and UA.
NW will have to depend heavily on Asian originating traffic to fill those DEN/LAX seats as they did for the DFW/LAX service that was short lived. With Asian mega-competitor UA also in the market, I just don't see it happening. NW traffic will be spill at best for DEN originating passengers. I have no idea how well they will penetrate the LAX originating passengers which they will desperately need to fill seats.
NW lost its chance to defend against F9 four years ago when they looked the other way on their two flights a day. Then F9 CEO Sam Addoms came to town to testify against NW in an anti-trust case (think it pertained to Sun Country or Reno Air) and NW never was as brilliantly aggressive vs F9 as they usually are against most hub trespassers.
I expect that loyal following in the MSP market to make the difference for F9's success.
That being said, I do remember a post by a F9 employee saying the first two F9 MSP/LAX flights were booked at "0" about four weeks ago. Those flights are on Easter Sunday though. It would be interesting to get an update on bookings.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
Norjet From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3159 times:
Don't forget NW's mini-hub at RNO when Reno Air began MSP-RNO service back in the mid-90s. NW was going to fly SEA-RNO-LAX with 722s. Got into their printed schedules and res computers but never actually flew.
I also have a NW system timetable with the services out of MDW that they were going to run after their acquisition of Midway mk1. Also never happened...
Publishing travel advice for adopting families - to justify being an airline geek
Klwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2481 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3119 times:
The responses in this thread are interesting. But I clearly misnamed this thread. I do think this service will start as planned and will happen. I was just perplexed and disappointed since it seems like they only wanted to operate the route briefly.
: Excuse me for what will be a long post, but .....let's not miss the first obvious fact...the press release (dated DEC) says the flights will BEGIN in
: Any questions...... 5 F9 407 LAXDEN 455P 805P 320 Hmmmm........this is being operated with a 320? All my figures show this as a 319, but then again, t
: Don't forget NW's mini-hub at RNO... If NW hadn't been forced to drop their plans to open a mini-hub at RNO, they probably would've gone ahead with th
28 NWA Man
: AA's presence on the route is another interesting variable in this case. I see they fly several hundred daily seats in this market - how do they fill
: AA has been on DEN-LAX since the late 90's. This was a transition of a former Reno Airlines flight. They used to fly DEN-SJC, but that was cut post-9/