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DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?  
User currently offlineKlwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2101 posts, RR: 3
Posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3656 times:

We have discussed already how NWA has started DEN-LAX in retaliation for F9 starting LAX-MSP.

I travel in this market so I keep up on things.

The question is, no flights can be found for this market at NWA website after the end of August. I even called NWA reservations, and the agent could not give me any information and assumed the flights just weren't loaded in yet. But I called several weeks ago, and still nothing. Something is not right. Already going away maybe? hummm....

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 1, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3517 times:

It is still happening.

The flights will only operate until 31 August 2004.



a.
User currently offlineKlwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2101 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3437 times:

Yes, I know they are currently operating. Just seems kind of silly just to enter a market, operate it for a few months, then hightail it out.

User currently offlineKlwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2101 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3422 times:

No, no correction here. The LAX-DEN NWA service has yet to begin. It starts April 4 I think. I think this might be a first. A route is being discontinued before it has even begun. Amazing

User currently offlineNlink From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3384 times:

It could be PARS/worldspan hasnt gotten the updated schedule from NW yet, which this is common on new routes and it defaults back to the old schedule which DENLAX was not in

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3343 times:

Keyword here: retaliation


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineMizzou65201 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 196 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3308 times:

My NW e-Timetable confirms:

NW 959 Lv DEN 10:30a Ar LAX 11:50a
NW 960 Lv LAX 11:45a Ar DEN 3:00p
NW 961 Lv DEN 4:00p Ar LAX 5:20p
NW 962 Lv LAX 6:00p Ar DEN 9:15p

All service scheduled on A320 a/c. Begin 04Apr, End 31Aug.



User currently offlineKlwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2101 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3220 times:

Yes, yes, yes. That is what I thought. An end to the service is announced before it even commences.

Can someone here tell us about any other routes that have ended before it even beginning?

Anyone?


User currently offlineIndustrialPate From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3191 times:

Yes, yes, yes. That is what I thought. An end to the service is announced before it even commences.

Huh? The flights will operate for the summer season only, as originally planned... there haven't been any changes.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25710 posts, RR: 85
Reply 9, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3172 times:
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IndustrialPate:

Am I missing something? Here is the original NWA press release announcing the service:

http://www.nwa.com/corpinfo/newsc/2003/pr121820031257.html

I can't see anything about "summer only" service, and I don't remember any announcement since the one linked above.

Just because I don't remember it doesn't mean it didn't happen, of course.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineIndustrialPate From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3150 times:

Mariner,
The flights were never loaded beyond August into the reservations system...


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25710 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3116 times:
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IndustrialPate:

Yes, I guess that's clear. But I think, then, that you can understand the confusion - there was no actual announcement of "summer only" service?

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineKlwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2101 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3107 times:

Huh? Check out
http://www.nwa.com/corpinfo/newsc/2003/pr121820031257.html
Where is the seasonal part as "originally planned?"

"The flights were never loaded beyond August into the reservations system..."

Exactly! The flights have not even begun yet and they have already gotten the ax.

If it is seasonal that means it will be coming back right? Where is that information?


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 13, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3089 times:

Guys, airlines very often never say a new service is seasonal. It is a very common practice. Just check go to AA's website and look at how they never mention new service is seasonal.

One reason is to test demand to see if it can go year-round. When AA announced MIA-LIR a few months ago, they never once mentioned it was seasonal, even though it was. Demand was strong, so they made it year-round.



a.
User currently offlineIndustrialPate From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3090 times:

Where is the seasonal part as "originally planned?"

The press release was issued a week before the flights were available for purchase... this very, very rarely happens and implies it was done rather quickly, so I’m not surprised it doesn’t contain detailed information.

Exactly! The flights have not even begun yet and they have already gotten the ax.

Again, what the hell does that mean? The flights are available for purchase & service is expected to begin in about six weeks… claiming the flights have gotten the ax before they’ve begun implies service will not inaugurate at all (e.g. DL offering PDX-KIX for sale for several months, then dropping service shortly before it was to begin). When NW adds seasonal service, the flights are added into their reservation systems on a seasonal basis, like these. When NW adds year-round service, they’re added into the system on a year-round basis. In the past, NW’s added seasonal service then extended it to year-round when they’ve performed well… it’s still too early to judge the DEN-LAX flights.

If it is seasonal that means it will be coming back right? Where is that information?

Not always. Some seasonal service (e.g. NRT-ANC, GCM, etc.) is evaluated on a year-to-year basis. That information won't be available for awhile.


User currently offlineKlwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2101 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3015 times:

The flights have not even begun yet and they have already gotten the ax."

The flights are beginning in April (not currently operating) and ending in August. It appears to be discontinued. Of course, they might be reinstated. That is what I meant.

I called reservations several weeks ago to book flights way in advance. The agent did not say they are being discontinued, but she had no idea why there were no flights. She didn't say it was seasonal either. She was totally confused.

DEN-LAX is a huge very highly travelled domestic market with consistent year round traffic. Some people fly between the two cities every week. It just seems like an odd choice for a temporary little trial run. All the seasonal routes described and discussed in the above post are the exact opposite of the DEN-LAX market. They are usually international flights, often long hauls, that are not super competitive.

"Again, what the hell does that mean?"
Isn't that kind of rude? I am just asking a question and making an observation.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 16, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3009 times:

. It just seems like an odd choice for a temporary little trial run.

No it doesn't. Northwest knows very well that thier two daily flights most likely:

1) Make little, if any, money
2) Be going out pretty empty, probably 40% LF at best

All it is is a scare tactic against Frontier Airlines.



a.
User currently offlineKlwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2101 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2981 times:

Well, I am just disappointed those great fares are leaving with them!

Gasp!

I doubt F9 is scared. Obviously NW is not serious about LAX-DEN.


User currently offlineAlphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 937 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2975 times:

I'd be surprised to see the NW DEN/LAX service last through August. I remember once when AA initiated MSP/LAX in the late 80s, NW retaliated with DFW/LAX. It was a disaster for AA (with NW doing better on the DFW flights than AA on the MSP flights because of Asian feed) and the flights were discontinued by both carriers after a very brief period. I think NW may be looking back to that time and thinking that a similar scenario will occur.

If F9 sticks with the MSP/LAX flights through May, I look for NW to admit defeat and utilize the Airbii on more lucrative routes. If F9 drops the service earlier, look for NW to exit DEN/LAX even sooner.

I don't, however, think F9 will drop the service. Their MSP/DEN service continually has the highest or nearly the highest load factors in their system. F9 has quietly grown from two 737 flights a day in the market to 3 319s and one 70 seat RJ over the past year and a half. They have already gained a loyal following in the MSP market, with their low fares and superior coach class service vs. NW and UA.

NW will have to depend heavily on Asian originating traffic to fill those DEN/LAX seats as they did for the DFW/LAX service that was short lived. With Asian mega-competitor UA also in the market, I just don't see it happening. NW traffic will be spill at best for DEN originating passengers. I have no idea how well they will penetrate the LAX originating passengers which they will desperately need to fill seats.

NW lost its chance to defend against F9 four years ago when they looked the other way on their two flights a day. Then F9 CEO Sam Addoms came to town to testify against NW in an anti-trust case (think it pertained to Sun Country or Reno Air) and NW never was as brilliantly aggressive vs F9 as they usually are against most hub trespassers.

I expect that loyal following in the MSP market to make the difference for F9's success.

That being said, I do remember a post by a F9 employee saying the first two F9 MSP/LAX flights were booked at "0" about four weeks ago. Those flights are on Easter Sunday though. It would be interesting to get an update on bookings.






"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
User currently offlineKlwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2101 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2964 times:

Their loads will depend on how many seats they allocated at such rock-bottom fares!

User currently offlineSCRAMJET From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2898 times:

It's quite common for an airline to cancel service before it starts. UA announced ORD-DEL service and never started it. NW announced DTW-MAD and canceled it before it began...

As for DEN-LAX, it hasn't necessarily been canceled yet, but might just be in till August 31 for the time being to see how the flights perform?


User currently offlineKlwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2101 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2847 times:

Well, I DO believe NW will start the service.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 22, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2749 times:

Another example of this practice is AA's new ORD-SMF service.

Ends 31 October 2004. Nowhere in the PR did is specify an end date, because if the service does well, it will continue.



a.
User currently offlineNorjet From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2668 times:

Don't forget NW's mini-hub at RNO when Reno Air began MSP-RNO service back in the mid-90s. NW was going to fly SEA-RNO-LAX with 722s. Got into their printed schedules and res computers but never actually flew.

I also have a NW system timetable with the services out of MDW that they were going to run after their acquisition of Midway mk1. Also never happened...

--Scott



Publishing travel advice for adopting families - to justify being an airline geek
User currently offlineKlwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2101 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2628 times:

The responses in this thread are interesting. But I clearly misnamed this thread. I do think this service will start as planned and will happen. I was just perplexed and disappointed since it seems like they only wanted to operate the route briefly.

25 Dtwintlflyer : Excuse me for what will be a long post, but .....let's not miss the first obvious fact...the press release (dated DEC) says the flights will BEGIN in
26 Frntman : Any questions...... 5 F9 407 LAXDEN 455P 805P 320 Hmmmm........this is being operated with a 320? All my figures show this as a 319, but then again, t
27 IndustrialPate : Don't forget NW's mini-hub at RNO... If NW hadn't been forced to drop their plans to open a mini-hub at RNO, they probably would've gone ahead with th
28 NWA Man : AA's presence on the route is another interesting variable in this case. I see they fly several hundred daily seats in this market - how do they fill
29 PSU.DTW.SCE : AA has been on DEN-LAX since the late 90's. This was a transition of a former Reno Airlines flight. They used to fly DEN-SJC, but that was cut post-9/
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