Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Commuter Aircraft  
User currently offlineTschudi From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 10 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6040 times:

In terms of reliability and cost efficiency what do you think the best commuter aircraft is?

Embraer, BA's Jetstreams, Beech 1900's, ATR's, or Saabs?







21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFinnWings From Finland, joined Oct 2003, 640 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6011 times:

From my experience I can say that Saab 340s are quite unreliable especially in winter conditions. They are also very loud and not very comfortable either as the cabin is very narrow. But I believe they are quite economical... if they are fully loaded there might be some balance problems even for short flights as the single cargo compartment is located aft of the fuselage.

Saab 2000 is excellent aircraft, very powerful, quiet and comfortable... It is comfortable even for a 2hr flight. Spacious cabin and well designed... not so balance sensitive than other props. Also much more reliable than S340..

ATRs and especially ATR72s are best of these in my opinion. New series -500 is extremely quiet (you don't even know you are in the prop aircraft!) and has quite good performance. Most spacious cabin and very big overhead bins which are rare for small aircrafts. I also like the 2+2 seating a lot... both -200 and -500 series are very reliable, even in the winter conditions. Finnair has been extremely pleased for their ATR72-201s and was the launch customer for that too. There isn't any balance problems with ATRs, because they have front and aft cargo compartments... therefore they have good cargo/mail capacity too.

So my votes goes for ATR... excellent product overall!

I'm not so familiar with Jetstreams or Embraers, so can't say anything about those...

Regards,
FinnWings


User currently offlineSegmentKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5962 times:

Well, you need to shorten the categories a bit.

Most of the 19 seat aircraft are not profitable to operate in a Part 121 environment due to the huge costs associated with security, maintenance, and training. So that rules out the J31 and 1900s.

The Saab, J41, and Brasilia. I'm biased towards the Brasilia. So I can't say much. The Saab & J41 get payload issues, but then again so does the EM2. While I lean towards the EM2, the Saab is probably more cost effective as you have either 33 or 34 seats in it and acquisition costs are lower.

ATR is in a league of its own. The only competitor is the ATP. And we know how successful that is.

-n


User currently offlineRockyRacoon From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 964 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5911 times:

Don't leave the Dash 8's out of the running.

User currently offlineTschudi From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 10 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5803 times:

Another good point is choosing an aircraft for the right mission.

it looks like the ATR are the perfect candidate for the 400-1000 mile legs. but what about short legs less than 175 miles in length with high frequency. would a Brassilia be the best reliable and cost effective candidate?


User currently offlineFreshlove1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5793 times:

Beechcraft not profitable because of 121, you sound like Jonathan Orienstein always preaching about the 1900's not being profitable, well if Johnny O didn't have the 1900's then he would have no RJ's either because the money he makes with the 1900's goes to fund the RJ's that Mesa purchases. All you need is 3 "Y or B" class tickest on a 1900 to break even and the rest is profit. Same with the J31.

User currently offlineTschudi From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 10 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5788 times:

what source could I reference to find a listing of all types of commuter aircraft and the specific airlines that use them. And maybe find out why that airline chose that particular aircraft.

User currently offlineTschudi From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 10 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5730 times:

I have heard the Beech's profitability is there because of such low operting cost and a very low break even, same with the j31, but the drawback is they are not very fun to fly in, or appealing to a passenger.

Reliability wise I don't know,


User currently offlinePera From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5712 times:

As i am a swede, I choose saab!

User currently offlineScootertrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 569 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5651 times:

I have flown both the ATR42/72 and the Dash 8 (series 100, 200 and 300). They are both excellent airplanes that outclass every other regional turboprop. In my experience, however, the Dash 8 aircraft tend to be more reliable than the ATR's, especially with respect to the airplanes electrical and environmental systems. The ATR's have a better load carrying capability and have longer range... They carry nearly double the fuel of the DHC-8-100/200/300.

Scootertrash


User currently offlineSegmentKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5606 times:

Freshlove,

Unfortunately the days of passengers purchasing "Y" fares are over.

I am not getting involved in a Johnny O discussion with you, but lets look at Key West.

Day in and out, a simple 23 minute block time flight to MIA is constantly weight restricted to 18, sometimes even 16. Tampa, on the other hand, is 49 minute block time and gets restricted to as low as 15.

The cost for Mesa to operate a EYW/MIA leg is about $1450, and to operate EYW/TPA is about $1800.

You do the math.

Air Midwest is NOT a pro-rate operation, so they get a percentage of the fare, unless it is O/D then ZV gets 89% (I believe).

Taking into account a walkup fare to TPA from EYW averages about $200, and MIA is about $150, start doing some math and tell me how profitable it is to operate a 1900D in a Part 121 environment.

Look at Great Lakes... even they have offloaded 25 Beech 1900Ds, and Gulfstream is upgrading into the Brasilia.

the 19 seat model for 121 operations just isn't what it used to be...

-nate


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5563 times:

In this day and age I feel no reason to fly on a prop job no matter how short the trip, give me an Embraer RJ every time!

User currently offlineH53Epilot From Israel, joined Mar 2004, 177 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5548 times:

I am not sure you would feel the same way when flying into Aspen in poor weather.

"In this day and age I feel no reason to fly on a prop job no matter how short the trip, give me an Embraer RJ every time!"


User currently offlineAlsf 2 From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 89 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5474 times:

Correct me if I am wrong.... but doesn't the saab 340 and the saab 2000 have the exact same fuselage? Except for the plug and all!
How could one be "not very comfortable either as the cabin is very narrow," and the other be "Spacious cabin and well designed?" Huh!?

Cheers!


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5442 times:

Alsf-

I was thinking the same thing when I read that. If you look at these pictures of the Saab 340 and Saab 2000 interior they are the SAME. Infact, I think the SF2000 has the SF340 GEN III interior....!!!!

View Large View Medium

Photo © Erik Falkenström



View Large View Medium

Photo © Aeroview Zurich/Worldwide



View Large View Medium

Photo © Michal Buciak [epwa_spotters]



View Large View Medium

Photo © Max Teuber



[Edited 2004-03-17 00:03:07]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineTschudi From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 10 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5378 times:

What is the motivation then of putting small 19 seaters on a 121 certificate? It would make sense to keep your operating costs down to keep them 135, probably unless you're required to becaue of feeding the 121 carriers.

I think your right, even through the Beech's and the Jetstreams have a low operating cost what can you realistically charge a passenger, a business traveler or even just a pleasure traveler on the weekend to fly in a cramped prop job. Especially in a 121 environment.



User currently offlineSegmentKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5315 times:

You have some major thorns that add to your bottom line at an airline. All are due to 9/11.

#1. Security fees (cost of doing business w/ the TSA)

#2. Hull insurance has quadrupled, courtesy of all the families suing UAL and AA, & their insurers over 9/11

#3. Airport costs have skyrocketed, due to complex security regulations


User currently offlineSevenair From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 1728 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5247 times:

well, we almost had a post without mentioning 9/11, but never mind!

Well id say the BAe Aircraft, simply because they are English.


User currently offlineTschudi From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 10 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 years 4 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5149 times:

Looks like air midwest and gulfstream are moving away from the older J31's and Beech's and moving up. Right now there is no Florida Intrastate Carrier serving multiple cities in Florida that has Jet service that I can tell except for the common runs from MIA, TPA, TLH, MCO.

what about all the smaller cities that are growing fast. (Palm Beach, Fort Pierce/Port St Lucie, St Augustine, Marathon, Panama City) I think there is alot of potential for a major carrier to start scheduled service going between alot of airports within FLorida.

What do you think?


User currently offlineBoingGoingGone From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 4 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5089 times:

For a turboprop it's the Saab 340

For RJ's, on reliability the CRJ, for cost the ERJ's.


User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6126 posts, RR: 34
Reply 20, posted (10 years 4 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5059 times:

Bombardier urged to fix CRJ700
Flight International (16Mar04)

European operators of 70-seater push manufacturer to ensure reliability issues are resolved in modification package

Bombardier is coming under increasing pressure from European CRJ700 operators to ensure that its latest modification programme for the 70-seater resolves reliability issues that have dogged it since its introduction three years ago.

Air France-owned regional Brit Air, which was CRJ700 launch operator in January 2001 and has 10 in service, has delayed delivery of its remaining two orders pending an improvement in reliability, which is running at 97.5% (using a measuring system that only takes account of the initial technical failure). The reliability of the Brittany-based airline's CRJ700 fleet is such that two aircraft, rather than one, have to be held on back-up duty each day.

"RIMP-2 should fix all the problems, but it will have taken three years to resolve them," says Brit Air managing director Alain Huberdeau. But he warns that if Bombardier fails to put the aircraft right with these modifications, plans to gradually replace the airline's 19 50-seat CRJ100s with CRJ700s could be dropped. "Our preferred choice is to stay with the CRJ700, but if it continues to be a problem we could cancel our remaining orders and acquire more secondhand Fokker 100s for growth," he says, adding that six of the 50-seaters are due to leave the fleet by 2006.

Cologne-based Lufthansa CityLine, which operates 20 CRJ700s, is also pushing Bombardier to help it improve reliability, which is "around 98%", and the daily utilisation, which is 2h short of the 10h target. "We and Bombardier agree that its products need to have the same reliability as Airbus and Boeing aircraft: 99.5-99.8%," says CityLine managing director Karl-Heinz Kopfle.

Huberdeau is disappointed with the support Bombardier provides in Europe. "We can wait one, two or three days for spares or special tooling to fix a problem," he says.

MAX KINGSLEY-JONES / MORLAIX, BRITTANY & COLOGNE




Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineBoingGoingGone From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 4 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5016 times:

CRJ-200.... Should have been clearer. I thought we were talking aircraft that would be used as a commuter (generally up to 300 NM's). Avg CRJ-700 trip is around 500 miles.

Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Commuter Aircraft posted Mon Mar 15 2004 18:06:19 by Tschudi
Commuter Aircraft? posted Fri Jun 1 2001 05:12:50 by Tupolev154B2
Regional/Commuter Aircraft Comfort? posted Thu Mar 15 2001 12:00:34 by Airmale
Runway Just For Commuter Type Aircraft posted Sun Apr 27 2003 10:31:13 by United777
Commuter/Regional Aircraft posted Sun Dec 16 2001 03:40:40 by Night_Flight
Deadheading/moving Empty Aircraft To Other Cities posted Tue Dec 19 2006 00:17:50 by Dmanmtl
CO/UA Merger - Ideas On Routes And Aircraft posted Mon Dec 18 2006 19:13:52 by CALPSAFltSkeds
Derelict Aircraft At Buenos Aires posted Mon Dec 18 2006 15:08:51 by Bennett123
What Aircraft Is This? posted Sat Dec 16 2006 06:29:39 by IsuA380B777
E175 - E190..The Same Aircraft? posted Thu Dec 14 2006 18:11:03 by Bpat777
Commuter Aircraft posted Mon Mar 15 2004 18:06:19 by Tschudi
Commuter Aircraft? posted Fri Jun 1 2001 05:12:50 by Tupolev154B2
Regional/Commuter Aircraft Comfort? posted Thu Mar 15 2001 12:00:34 by Airmale
Runway Just For Commuter Type Aircraft posted Sun Apr 27 2003 10:31:13 by United777
Commuter/Regional Aircraft posted Sun Dec 16 2001 03:40:40 by Night_Flight
FR Not Making "Big" Aircraft Order Until 2015 posted Thu Apr 19 2012 08:49:51 by cipango