CanadaEH From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 1341 posts, RR: 4 Posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 3280 times:
You can thank the unions of Air Canada if TTI decides to walk on investing in Air Canada.
Financial elements of Air Canada deal under review in face of union intransigence
TORONTO, March 17 /CNW/ - Trinity Time, the court-approved equity plan
sponsor for the Air Canada restructuring, announced that it has initiated a
full review of its $650 million equity investment, due to union intransigence
in refusing to discuss pension structure.
In conducting this review, Trinity and its financial adviser and partner,
Goldman Sachs, will, for each labour group, closely examine the achieved value
of the concessions made by the unions in the May-June 2003 labour negotiations
in relation to the levels promised by each union (approximately $850 million
in total for unionized employees). In addition, an assessment will be made as
to the financial impact of the unions' refusal to consider the proposed
Leaders of the company's unions are refusing to consider changes that
would transition some employees' pension plans from the current defined
benefit (DB) pension plan to a defined contribution (DC) pension plan - the
trend among large North American employers. Union leaders are also refusing to
discuss the DC plan with their own members, despite consistent and widespread
expressions of interest on the part of Air Canada employees.
"Air Canada's unions have placed ideology ahead of their members'
interests in refusing to discuss the DC pension structure. Trinity is simply
seeking to ensure a more secure future for Air Canada and its employees while
securing entitlements earned through past service," said Trinity director
Harold Gordon. "Our investment - from the beginning - has been contingent on a
satisfactory solution to this issue, which impacts directly Air Canada's
competitiveness. By refusing even to discuss the issue, union leaders are now
forcing us to reconsider the entire investment. If the numbers are not there,
we will be forced to walk away from investing in Air Canada."
Trinity first presented its pension proposal on February 5. Last week it
agreed that current non-unionized employees would have the option of choosing
between DB and DC pension plans, but it could not consider the same option for
unionized employees because of the refusal of union leadership to engage in
Trinity has established a web site for Air Canada employees to learn more
about the DC benefit option: www.trinitytime.ca.
Whiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 762 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3134 times:
You are missing something. Trinity knew what concessions were made by the unions last summer. Those contracts were based on the fact that the pensions were not to be touched in any way. Both the unions and the company agreed to and signed those contracts. It was either up to Li to do his research properly or Milton to give him the correct information. They are the ones that are going to kill this airline!
CanadaEH From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 1341 posts, RR: 4 Reply 4, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3129 times:
I thought that the deal was that NEW employees would be going from DB to DC contributing pension plans and the present employees would remain DB pension plans? Or am I missing something?
Also, in another forum it was brought up that certain unions have not help up their end of the bargain in making concessions (or something..) hence the "In conducting this review, Trinity and its financial adviser and partner,
Goldman Sachs, will, for each labour group, closely examine the achieved value of the concessions made by the unions in the May-June 2003 labour negotiations in relation to the levels promised by each union "/i>.
Hi_flyer From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 53 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3129 times:
Yes and No.
The Unions are being stubborn, because they see their pensions at stake. They've been paying into the plan for years with the expectation of certain benefits, only to find that their future is open to negotiation.
On the other hand, it's obvious that the reason Air Canada is doing so horribly is its high costs, a large part of which is Union labour. The unions will have to give up something if the company is to survive, but you can't really blame them for their attitude given the way they've been treated by AC management in the past.
Both sides are laden down with so much baggage, that their airline may never take off again.
Whiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 762 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 3102 times:
As far as I'm concerned management should be leading by example. The unions did give up alot for the compnay to survive. Wages, O/T, paid lunches, various work rules regarding part time employees, clothing and work boot allowances to name a few on the IAM side. Then after these deals are all signed Milton gets his nice big bonus from Trinity. Please where do I sign to give up more for him (sarcasm).
Yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16125 posts, RR: 57 Reply 7, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3066 times:
As an outsider looking in, does anybody else get the feeling that the unions of Air Canada are the ones who are going to kill the airline?
Unions are often the final straw. Regardless of how incompetent the AC mgmt are, the unions need to realize that AC employees are only have 50% as productive as the LCC employees. So without massive productivity increases, or pay reductions, AC will continue to shrink and die, or collapse altogether.
What a sad airline.
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
Lymanm From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1137 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3011 times:
Oh, Whiteguy, you working class hero, you! Why should you, working long, hard hours on the ramp, trying to make a living, give more to those white-collar sleazes who work at HQ?
If you want to get paid what Milton gets paid, get an MBA and become managment! I'm not defending Milton specifically, but your self righteous attitude and distrust towards managment is precisely why AC may very well fail. Does it not concern you that your counterparts at WJ/CJ/SG make 1/3 the wages you do? Or that AC has one of the highest number of employees per aircraft rate in the industry? Or that militant unions, like the IAM, pressure you to slack off if you work "too hard"? (They did precisely this at Eastern in 1989)
Li bought into the airline well after the unions reached their agreement. His demands to re-open negotiations clearly show they weren't enough. In your position, would you invest $750 000 000 in a system that, so far, has not been working?
Sure, you can believe Buzz Hargrove and other leaders when they say that "there are plenty of other parties that would be interested in investing in Air Canada" or you can face the truth. If Li doesn't like the way his money is going to be spent (on over-paying unionized employee groups), he will take his money away. And your job, your union and your future will vaporize...
But I guess that would also mean Milton would be out of a job, and it seems that more than anything, is what matters to you.
Whiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 762 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3004 times:
"working class hero" I like the sound of that, thanks. Maybe its the fact that I like only having to work one job and also enjoy my life. And yes I would like Milton to lose his job, he hasn't done shit for this airline.
Lymanm From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1137 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2952 times:
"And yes I would like Milton to lose his job, he hasn't done shit for this airline."
At the expense of every other employee at Air Canada? That's what you are suggesting... If you can't see the patently destructive nature of such thinking, then good riddance to you and your union members' impending unemployment.
Sr71 From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 29 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2890 times:
If you want to get paid what Milton gets paid, get an MBA and become management! I'm not defending Milton specifically, but your self righteous attitude and distrust towards management is precisely why AC may very well fail.
It seem like having an MBA or CEO or any other set of initials behind your name these days, gives you the right to rape and pillage companies at will. I'm thinking Enron,Omni Media,the Federal Gov't (the sponsorship program)and the list goes on, and at what cost to the employees or tax payer as the case may be.
As noted negotiations were concluded almost a year ago and TTI is at the trough again with regards to the pension plan and will be back once more to look at the employees benefit program. To make changes to the pension benefit is just a foot in the door, next they'll want to remove it from trust and expose it to the creditors, if the company ever found itself in a bankruptcy situation again it would be venerable.
So take it easy on Witeguy.
Chock head From Samoa, joined May 2002, 148 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2873 times:
It looks like the union is willing to sacrifice it's memberships jobs to prove a point. They do not want to back down on this or even talk about it because then their membership will realize that their union may not even be that neccessary, after all, what are they able to accomplish.
Unions are a business just like any other, they make money buy having members. More members = more money.
I think it would be naive to think that unions are there for the good of working people.
Skywatcher From Canada, joined Sep 2002, 450 posts, RR: 4 Reply 14, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2841 times:
Would you put $750 million of your fresh, new money into an airline with $1.3 billion of stale, old pension debt?
Wouldn't it be great to have 60,000 pensioners with indexed, guaranteed pensions supported by 30,000 workers who are experiencing ever decreasing wages and continual lay-offs (i.e. the threat of no income).If the airline fails, the pension becomes a disaster without continual new funds coming in. Take a look at Dofasco if you want to see an even worse scenario.
It sucks but the demographics have changed in case the comrades haven't noticed.
Why doesn't Buzz line up an investor if he likes the math so much?
Seriously, if they can't find middle ground (phased-in DC plan/profit sharing/stock purchase plans etc.) then all I can say is Jetsgo/Westjet/Canjet/Air Transat get ready to experience phenomenal growth in a hurry.