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Air Canada Win Final Appeal On YYZ TNew Gate Issue  
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2891 times:

Air Canada will get to keep its preferential access to 14 gates at the new terminal at Pearson International Airport, the Ontario Court of Appeal decided Friday.

The court rejected an application by the Greater Toronto Airport Authority for leave to appeal an earlier court ruling that allotted the gates to Air Canada.

"That's the end of this particular issue, there are no further appeals," said Joseph Steiner, a lawyer for the airport authority.

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/03/19/business/aircanada_040319

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2843 times:

Maybe they are both banking on liquidation too...With no AC the gates will be wide open...


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16285 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2785 times:

AC has never been closer to liquidation, so these 14 gates may well become free again soon.

Anyway, even though AC "won" this issue (akin to a dying man winning a game of checkers on his death bed), there was a clear message here: Canadian airport authorities will no longer be held hostage to AC's bullying tactics in the Cdn market, from its relentless pursuit of unfair competition to its mistreatment of suppliers and overall arrogance in the market place.

Cudos to the GTAA for standing up to AC in the interests of fair gate allotment for ALL passengers.






Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2780 times:

Cudos to the GTAA for standing up to AC in the interests of fair gate allotment for ALL passengers.

To say that any organization headed up by Louis Turpen cares about fairness is the ultimate in hypocrisy.

Its like saying Robert Milton cares about unions....


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16285 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2758 times:

To say that any organization headed up by Louis Turpen cares about fairness is the ultimate in hypocrisy.

Sean, I know you don't support Turpen (for reasons I'm not aware of), but my interest in Turpen is not based on fairness.

Turpen is a leader and visionary.....it was he and he alone that enabled 3 new runways and the massive new T1 to be built. When T1 opens is completed, Toronto will have an airport that YYZers can be proud of for the first time since 1964. Turpen is a Toronto hero.

This whole gate issue is a very minor issue in the scheme of things.






[Edited 2004-03-20 03:09:08]


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineBoac707 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 278 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2743 times:

Really, you guys have to undersatnd that the Cdn gov't can not allow AC to fold...there is legislation that remote places have to be served. There is no one in the wings to take the garbage runs and therefore AC will survive even if by gov't decree...


smokey classics to the end of time
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2740 times:

Turpen a visionary?? Please!!!! Turpen is surrounded by people with a vision for, YYZ, granted he knows how to get things in motion, it is not his vision that is being built right now, it is the vision of his VP's and all those around him. If you ever get a chance to listen to him you will quickly see that he is infact a very backwards thinker when it comes to this industry, and infact would disagree with your position on many issues. Since he took over the GTAA he has done nothing but promote the backward, governement run style of leadership, and its hurt the airport's relationship with its tenants. Other airports know not to break the hand that feeds them, the GTAA mentality is quite the opposite, and it has lead to a new terminal that is about to open which was built with little input from the very people who use it every day.


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2725 times:

Turpen is a Toronto hero.

Typical drivel from an NDP "tax-and-spend" sympathizer like you Neil... Big grin

Louis Turpen is nothing but a weasel for hire. He rolls into town after town, kicks up a shit storm and raise fees, rips off the locals through excessive taxes and levies, builds a monument to his ego and then leaves once the cathedral is ready to be consecrated.

Sure, by the standards of other Canadian politicians like Johnny "Teflon" Cretin I guess that DOES make him a hero.

Turpen is a leader and visionary.....

If he is such a visionary, I hope he can visualize my brown ass mooning him from all the way up here.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16285 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2724 times:

Turpen a visionary?? Please!!!!

Yes, he is Slawko, I listened to a couple of his speeches when he first came to Toronto (back when you were in high school). His vision was more runways and a unitary terminal. Which is now becoming a reality.

it is the vision of his VP's and all those around him.

Sounds more like they were hired to implement his vision Slawko. Or is this your take on GTAA office gossip from your summer job?

Other airports know not to break the hand that feeds them, the GTAA mentality is quite the opposite, and it has lead to a new terminal that is about to open which was built with little input from the very people who use it every day.

The "hand that feeds" is NOT the airlines...it is the flying public. The flying public wants ONE terminal for all airlines and a NICE terminal. Turpen has delivered. Passengers also want all airlines treated fairly. Turpen has tried to deliver here.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2697 times:

The "hand that feeds" is NOT the airlines...it is the flying public.

Sorry Neil, but the airline industry is not quite at that stage yet. The "hand that feeds" the airports is still very much the airlines. As long as barriers to entry exist for new market entrants (and in an environment such as air travel is in Canada as long as the Aeronautics Act and the Canada Transportation Act are in force these regulatory barriers will exist regardless of capital accessibility), the supply-demand curve is still dictated by the supply side - namely the incumbent air carriers. Hamilton already showed Pearson that dicking around with landing fees will lose them new business like WestJet. Don't forget that until Clive and Louis got into their mutual fellatio session recently, relations were hardly cordial on that front either.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16285 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2675 times:

The "hand that feeds" the airports is still very much the airlines.

Not true Sean. Most major airport developments are decried by airlines since landing fees often rise. Of course airlines want modern terminals, but not the glitzy "galleria" type terminals that are built to attract passengers. UA squawked about DEN. Most airlines complained about the elaborateness of KIX. The 2nd runway at NRT was supported by passenger demand and not by airlines who were happy to restrict airline entry with the 2nd runway.

As long as barriers to entry exist for new market entrants.......the supply-demand curve is still dictated by the supply side - namely the incumbent air carriers.

True, but this is a benign statement...it supports neither your argument nor mine.

Don't forget that until Clive and Louis got into their mutual fellatio session recently,

A pretty picture indeed.

relations were hardly cordial on that front either.

There is natural tension between suppliers and customers. This is as it should be in a competitive market. The GTAA and WJ are working together though...this is evident. The GTAA no doubt recognizes that WJ may one day become Cda's largest carrier, perhaps within weeks or months if AC liquidates.










Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineTravelmark From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2580 times:

In all the press releases, I never saw a definite contract stating that AC had exclusive gates-all of them....what constantly came up was that if they did not have the gates that they would lose money and paxs could have been inconvenienced. To me this does not sound right.....was there ever a definite contract for AC to have all the new gates?

As for Mr.Turpen, all the levels of government already had a vision to see the airport grow for the future, and a management team was brought in to move it along. The term "visionary" should not be used so loosely..in my hamble opinion.


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 2554 times:

was there ever a definite contract for AC to have all the new gates?

a) Air Canada and GTAA had a written memorandum of understanding that AC would receive all the gates in phase 1 of TNew. An MoU is not a legally binding contract under normal circumstances, but rather a preliminary agreement.

b) When Air Canada filed for CCAA, Justice Farley issued a court order that prohibited any suppliers or vendors of Air Canada (which included GTAA) from unilaterally modifying the terms of any agreements without consent of the court. The MoU about the gates falls under this category of supplier agreements. Hence, at this time the MoU became a binding agreement which was not permitted to be modified.

c) When GTAA unilaterally modified the terms of the supplier agreement to give some of the gates to WestJet, Air Canada's position was that they had violated the binding MoU above. This position was upheld by Justice Farley and subsequently by the Ontario Superior Court and finally the Ontario Court of Appeal.



User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16285 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 2521 times:

When GTAA unilaterally modified the terms of the supplier agreement to give some of the gates to WestJet, Air Canada's position was that they had violated the binding MoU above.

A "binding MoU" is a contadiction in terms. Although I hear you. The GTAA obviously thought it was less binding than a final contract and felt they had some leeway to further competition by awarding 6 of tthe gates to WJ. The GTAA made a reasonable gamble on behalf of Toronto residents and I applaud them for that. If nothing else, it was nice to see a Cdn airport authority stand up to AC after the decades of AC bullying and market/industry dominiation.

Typical drivel from an NDP "tax-and-spend" sympathizer like you Neil...

OMG! The ultimate insult.  Smile





Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2501 times:

The GTAA made a reasonable gamble on behalf of Toronto residents

Reasonable gamble? I think not.

If GTAA honestly believed that they had a valid case to kick Air Canada out of those TNew gates, they obviously didn't do enough due diligence. A simple sealed motion in front of Justice Farley could have answered their question before it even became an issue.

Despite the fact that they were sitting on a tenuous position at best, the GTAA still chose to go ahead and dangle the carrot of TNew at WestJet to lure their operations from Hamilton. I think everyone agrees that without the offer of TNew gates, the chances of Clive moving his operation lock, stock and barrel up the QEW were slim indeed.

So now we have GTAA negotiating essentially in bad faith with WestJet. Once WestJet decided to make the move and the courts shot down the original GTAA proposal, they decide to move the entire WestJet operation into T2. Who is paying for the infrastructure changes to T2 that will be needed to accomodate WestJet? Why, the very Toronto residents that you mention via the already inflated AIF. And when TNew is ready to accomodate WestJet, the same infrastructure will then be ripped out.

Turpen and GTAA were not just satisfied taking our AIF and building a Titanic out of it, they now persist in spending whatever is left to rearrange the proverbial deckchairs. If you think that is a "reasonable gamble", you've been reading too many Jack Layton newsletters.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16285 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2489 times:

Who is paying for the infrastructure changes to T2 that will be needed to accomodate WestJet? Why, the very Toronto residents that you mention via the already inflated AIF.

Since AC will be vacating more domestic gates in T2 that WJ will require, the infrastructure changes should be minimal. Anyway, if there is infrasutructure costs, they will be minor, unlike the $B of subsidies AC has received over the years.

Turpen and GTAA were not just satisfied taking our AIF and building a Titanic out of it, they now persist in spending whatever is left to rearrange the proverbial deckchairs.

Whatever. You're big on the hyperbole Sean, but its all part of business. Woo WJ and then work out the details of accommodating them later. Its still a success for the GTAA.

If you think that is a "reasonable gamble", you've been reading too many Jack Layton newsletters.

I voted for Stephen Harper this morning. Hope he wins.









Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2475 times:

I voted for Stephen Harper this morning. Hope he wins.

Given that his only real opponent is Belinda Stronach, I too am rooting for Stephen Harper. He is a smart man, and with the right support team could make a good run in the elections as the head of the Conservatives.

Honestly, if it wasn't for the vehemently conservative (and borderline bigoted) social agenda of some of the old brass in the Alliance, I think they would have a real chance at knocking of Paul Martin this year. On economic policy they don't really have much different agenda than Martin and they are definitely less tainted by scandal. If only more of them were less rabid on social issues and spoke French, they might actually go places.

But we digress.....


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2477 times:

Neil..

The thing with WestJet moving into T2, is that the general cost of re-networking the system to function for WestJet will be several millions. And for what? Another year....

I know previously I sympathized with WestJet's and the GTAA's intent, however it became a little more clear to me that AC should have initial access to those 14 gates.. WestJet should however have the right to Tnew at some time when the whole cathedral of versailles is built  Big grin



User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16285 posts, RR: 56
Reply 18, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2428 times:

Given that his only real opponent is Belinda Stronach, I too am rooting for Stephen Harper.

Yahoo! He won! I just got home to change my contacts then back to Con-partying. Only Stephen Harper had free beer...the other 2 cash bar. Met Belinda.....sweaty palms. Met Peter Mackay. Nice guy.

Honestly, if it wasn't for the vehemently conservative (and borderline bigoted) social agenda of some of the old brass in the Alliance, I think they would have a real chance at knocking of Paul Martin this year.

The Conservatives are the most inclusive party. The first Fed party to have >10% of sitting MP's as visible minorities (courtesy of the Reformers). Also, the old Alliance party was strongest in the 3 most multi-cultural provinces...ON, BC, AB. The only true bigots are the Liberals who play on and encourage social differences.

The thing with WestJet moving into T2, is that the general cost of re-networking the system to function for WestJet will be several millions. And for what? Another year....

Compared to the $B in subsidies to AC, it's a drop in the bucket Mark.

WestJet should however have the right to Tnew at some time when the whole cathedral of versailles is built

It will be a busy cathedral Mark. Money well spent. Unlike YMX.








Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
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