Matt777 From Cayman Islands, joined Oct 2001, 503 posts, RR: 6 Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5558 times:
That's the best joke I've heard lately.
Our national carrier is owned by the state, and if you all didn't read their new 2004-6 plan they will come into profit next year, recieve it's 10th 772ER and order, via the state-owened leasing company Sviluppo Italia, 10 773ER to increase their intercontinental services. They will restart Los Angeles, Shanghai and many other destinations.
In the last few years Alitalia has increased the quality of its Magnifica and Economy Class (Ptv's), leading to more consumer satisfaction.
Alitalia has been suffering deep competition in their internal italian market, but they still have the lead in the money-making Milano-Roma.
One of the carriers that is in problems is Lufthansa with 1Billion debt.
AZ744, stay calm, Berlusconi will take care of our Cara Alitalia
Su184 From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 235 posts, RR: 11 Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5314 times:
What's going on ?? Alitalia, KLM, SAS, Olympic, and before Swissair and Sabena. Does this mean Europe had too many airlines ? Or they were poorly run ? It seems most of the national carriers went that way before some made it, others just went away, Austrian escaped by pulling out of the Qualiflyer group early, Iberia had its share of problems, Air France which taking over KLM and for sure Alitalia later had a dramatic turn around, BA, LH, and the list continues. It is interesting to see how the next round of the survival plans end up. It is always sad to see one of the pioneering airlines disappear.
Missing PAN AM, TWA, Eastern, BCal,....
Varig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1578 posts, RR: 8 Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5260 times:
too many airlines in an ultra competitive world....
airlines have to adapt quickly,steal customers to neighbor or...die
add to this bad management or extravagant routes existing for more or less prestige and political reasons, then you have explanations to what is happening.
me too I miss some pioneers, esp TWA ,1st flight to the states for me
AF TW AA NW BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ RG
Matt777 From Cayman Islands, joined Oct 2001, 503 posts, RR: 6 Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5003 times:
"Not sure Italians taxpayers will feel the same way though!"
I as an Italian taxpayer, I prefer to see my money invested in the industry I like the most. And by the way, I still want to HAVE THE OPTION between an italian carrier and other carriers when i fly to the US, Japan or Argentina. An I'm on favor of spending some of my taxmoney on keeping that choise, an airline that gives jobs to italians, not only directly but indirectly. Look at it also this way. If i let AZ go... then I have more unemployed, that don't pay taxes to the state. (Are the state accounts in a better off situation?) Not only the state has less income, but they have to pay them the unemployment benefit too!
In the United States, one of the most liberal countries. The airline industry is heavily subsidized by the government. Not only United, but American, Delta, Continental, Northwest have gotten loans from the Bush Administration.
With $38 a barril of Oli... who makes money? No one.
Unfortunately, the airline industry usually is very weak to fight economic crisis (Income Elastic) [not to mention the deep effect of 11S]. This industry has lots of externalities, same as any transportation or communication industry.
Concordingly, airlines have to be helped by the state, because it's like the blood for the body, what would it be without it?
Now I ask you all. If all the American carriers are helped by the state in their homeland, how can the European carriers compete against them if they are unprotected?
The only way is to do the same as they did. So... Why are they now all attacking Alitalia and the Berlusconi government when they didn't say nothing to the US transportation measures.
Why can't we copy the actions of the richest country on earth?
YUL332LX From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 820 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4776 times:
If all the American carriers are helped by the state in their homeland, how can the European carriers compete against them if they are unprotected?
See Matt, the problem is not with airlines that aren’t subsidized but rather with those who are... The incentives create distortions in the industry and that become a conundrum.
The question should not be: How can one survive if he is not helped in any way by the State to compete with someone massively supported by the government? Instead of facing reality, govts often prefer to go the easy way and justify it plainly by erroneously stating that it will help maintain or create jobs while the long term effect will be the exact opposite. Of course, I’m not saying that AZ should go down, gosh, I hope it never happens but if the govt uses direct tax-income to subsidize AZ, all the airlines industry in Italy will pay for it, and even worst, the international competitors might even get more help from their respective countries.
Financial support from the Govt is always a lose-lose at the bottom line…
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
Chgoflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 622 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4659 times:
Matt777... you need to check your facts. Uniteds loan was declined. Amr/American never made application. I may be mistaken but I dont think Delta got any money either. I am in agreement with you that goverments should protect industrys. Im still asking why there is no longer a Pan Am. But when the taxpayers offer assistance to many times the politicans and union benefit more than the company.
Gamarocchi From Italy, joined Nov 2003, 198 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4598 times:
Matt: from one person who hopes Alitalia becomes a stronger airline, with all due respect, the expansion plan they are thinking to execute (10 773ER + 10 772ER? Are they planning to run Milan - Rome on 777s??) seems like over-expansion to me. The sad reality is, many people especially in Northern Italy are not used to fly with Alitalia anymore, also considering that from many cities it is not more convenient than other foreigner airlines. And when you fly Alitalia, you know you have more to worry about strikes and inefficiencies than with, say, Air France or Lufthansa. So the fact is if you take a Lufthansa flight to New York there are many Italian people on board, while on the other hand from Rome to New York with AZ you don't usually see too many German people. I am beginning to see change, but, I don't know if it will be enough to win back Italian customers and save the company. A BIG expansion without finding a safe niche first does not seem the smartest thing to do now. As for the government subsidizing the airline... I do not think it is a bad thing per se when and if there is the need and if the money is well spent. In this case, I am afraid we are just looking to a lot of promises and a model which is not too wise. Time will tell.
Bd1959 From Australia, joined Oct 2002, 450 posts, RR: 2 Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4579 times:
Matt777 asked: With $38 a barril of Oli... who makes money? No one.
Well, QF have done pretty well over the past 12months - and it seems that BA are turning around. The European LCCs seem to be doing OK, too ...though for how long.....?
The European airlines which are struggling are those that have remained very close to their own Governments rather than going down the privatisation path.
While I agree that Governments should do all they can to encourage national industry, I stop short of direct subsidies. That leads to inefficiencies and waste - as the Unions demand more and the Management are politically guided by their masters rather than the Customers.
If an airline was profitable, not only would its (smaller) workforce be paying taxes, so would the airline itself on its profits, there is then no drain on the taxpayers.
Personally, I would hate to see AZ fail - I think homogeny of airlines through acquisition is bad for customer choice, but that should be determined by the market; not by Government handouts. At the end of the day though, if that's what the Italian taxpayers want then that's for them to decide through the ballot box.
Graham697 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 350 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4547 times:
I think before any Major European National Carriers fall, a few EU LCCs will either merge or dissolve. Europe has so many that consolidation is almost a must.
Few US airlines did receive loans from the Governemnt after 9/11 (ATSB), while that period is over, I think only 3 large airlines received actually loans. Frontier, US Airways (Why on earth? I love USAir but they need a much better management), Aloha, and World. All other airlines were turned down. Frontier has completely paid their loan back.
The US industry is still in much peril and will remain for quite some time, barring no attacks will NOT receive government assitance.
Richard28 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2003, 1588 posts, RR: 6 Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4519 times:
The Financial Times quoted today a letter which Rod Eddington (CEO of BA) had writtern to the UK governement asking them to intervine to ensure no subsidies are dished out to Alitalia.
I have to say I agree with him. Form an Italian tax payers point of view, you would be throwing good money after bad, and the eventual cost would aend quite possibly end up more than if you face the financial realities now.
If Alitalia is losing money, then it must downsize or re-consider its business plan.
Aviatrion needs a level playing field to progress.
VCE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4411 times:
I think that you didn't understand well what Matt has meant. Nobody in Italy say that public money must be used to save Alitalia. This is not possible for the Italian law, for the European law, and less than less with this Government that doesn't like to finance with public money losing companies. But the Government has to help AZ to prepare a plan to throw the airline before its privatization as they are already doing. Nothing less, nothing more.
JGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4388 times:
The best way to save AZ would be for their bone-idle staff to actually do some work for a change, and stop going on strike. Having flown AZ a few times from FCO and MXP, the innefficiency of their staff (even when they aren't on strike, although sometimes its hard to tell) is a joke. Until AZ staff realize that in this day and age they are lucky to have such a cushy job, and should be grateful they still have an airline to work for, and get off their arse and serve the customer, pax will continue to see AZ as unreliable and chaotic, and they will continue to desert AZ in droves.
VCE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4362 times:
JGPH1A, in this i agree with You.. AZ is completely like AF.. strikes,strikes,strikes. AZ couldn't find a better partner than AF and viceversa.. once i was blocked at CDG for 12 hours thanks to the French Unions!
Regarding the service, on long haul flights i flew several times with AZ and AF. The service in AZ is far better than AF. Especially the equipments on board, the F/A and the planes. AZ planes are clean inside.
Steman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1300 posts, RR: 8 Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4313 times:
I do hope that Alitalia will recover soon from this new crisis.
Did you know that they have posted a profit only once in the past 11 years?
I don't like the idea that my money are burnt by badly managed state owned companies.
I'd rather prefer to see Alitalia privatized and rescued by Italian investors.
But if I have to consider the reality of facts and the stories of other European Flag Carriers, I think that the best that can happen to Alitalia is to be taken over by Air France and become part of the biggest European airline group.
As a passenger I will always prefer to have the choice between different airlines and different fares. Monopoly have never been good for passengers but only for airlines.
So I hope that whichever will be the fate of Alitalia I will always have the chance to fly from FCO to reach my final destinations, without having to go through MXP or CDG.
Gamarocchi From Italy, joined Nov 2003, 198 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4292 times:
VCE then explain: where is the money for all those aircraft coming from? If they are leased by another government company and given to Alitalia, isn't that the same as giving money to Alitalia? Or else, who will pay for the aircraft?
I said, I am not against the government paying money to an airline, after all air travel is a useful service and brings money to the economy. On the other hand, if this will as a result damage the country in the long run, I am very against it. I am afraid if they go for an expansion THAT wild, the result will not be good.
25 Paxromana: My point of view is that in most case an airline is a flag, an ambassade, a cultural phenomenon, an aethnic resource, in a few words, much more than a
26 Steman: Why can't they just follow the examples of Air France and Iberia who were on the edge of bankrupt but succeded in recor and become wealthy and profita
27 Gamarocchi: True Ste, there is the very important and difficult problem of deciding if they want to use FCO or MXP as a hub. Of course, if they choose to serve bu
28 Hydargos: hi everybody, l live in padua and my usual hub is vce marco polo. I'm deeply sorry to say ,as italian ,that i've never used alitalia for my interconti
29 KLMflyer: Well, I'm Italian but have no feelings or emotions when talking about Alitalia. The carrier will never become profitable for several years and it's no
30 Steman: Gamarocchi, you've hit the point. The real problem in Italy is the System as a whole. See how the Dutch have been able to create one of the biggest hu
31 KLMflyer: AZ failed to develop a winning "hub" concept. FCO is the major entry point for leisure travelers while MXP is the major entry point for business trave
32 Bicoastal: My comments apply to both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. Alitalia and US Airways should both go out of business. They are union dominated and inefficien
33 HlywdCatft: With the way this European Union is going, I wouldn't be surprised if there are 2-4 airlines left and a few LCCs like the USA someday.
34 Gamarocchi: While I am convinced Alitalia has hard problems, to say that the country does not need an international airline is a little drastic. If Alitalia can s
35 KLMflyer: I'm replying to Gamarocchi's last post. You are right when saying that Alitalia could grow but not necessarily as a large international airline. Take
36 UA744KSFO: I sure hope that Alitalia NEVER goes out of business! They are a magnificent airline to fly on!
37 KLMflyer: UA744KSFO Nothing personal with you but ... how can you say that AZ is a magnificent airline to fly on! I can describe as magnificent an airline like
38 Gamarocchi: Hi Antonio: I am not sure the same concepts which work in the US can be profitably applied in Europe. For a thing, Europe will not be "as united" as t
39 Wietse: At first I thought Jwenting was just joking when he said it every 2 minutes. Now I am not so sure. I mean come on, a joke is only funny for a certain
40 KLMflyer: Hi Gamarocchi. It looks we found a very "hot" subject to talk about: Alitalia. Well, I like your concept of the Alitalia brand or division. It could b
41 Sabena 690: Wietse: nobody with common sense understands his misplaced hatress... @KLMflyer: In 2002, I also had 4 good flights on AZ... Especially on the BRU-FCO
42 Gamarocchi: You hit it! The problem is too many employees, and bad employees to say it all. That is why when you travel with Alitalia you have a bad experience of
43 KLMflyer: @Sabena690: I want to clarify a point. I had a great flight on board an Interflug IL18 between East Berlin and Warsaw. it was 20 years back and my onl
44 Sabena 690: @KLMflyer: I know about the AZ problems too, but I still had 4 great flights with them. the only difference in service between a Ryanair flight from R
45 KLMflyer: ciao Gamarocchi, I fully agree with you not the personnel issue. Whether you're a premium pax flying in first or business, or a price-conscious pax fl
46 Sabena332: I agree with Frederic, I flew twice on AZ and I was impressed by their service level, they are one of the best airlines in Europe (unfortunately I nev
47 KLMflyer: @ Sabena 690 ok, you've been very lucky in your experience and as far as it's fine for you, it is fine for me as well. very probably the customer serv
48 Varig md-11: I flew AZ once on FCO-CDG and to be honest I was ready for the worst after all I read here.... in fact apart from the food which was not so good, flig
49 Gamarocchi: KLMflyer, yes I agree with you, foreign languages are a weak point of AZ's FA. This is one point where a marriage with a foreign company could work mi
50 Sabena 690: As for Alitalia being a "superb" airline,Sabena, well, they are far from the likes of Lufthansa or Air France or BA (none of which deserves the title
51 VCE: KLMflyer, as you have admitted and written, you never fly Alitalia (except the MIL-ROM route). Well, due to my business i often fly on long haul and i
52 Ezycrew: If Swissair, one of the world's best airlines, was let to die, I'm sure it could happen to any airline, including Mama Alitalia (which is, by far, not
53 Gamarocchi: VCE: you are way more nationalistic than the average Italian.. nothing wrong with that, but the fact is that most people judge Alitalia by what it is
54 VCE: I'm a nationalist, true, is it a problem? Why there are millions of people who study Italy, its history, its art, its culture? Of course this is not a
55 KLMflyer: VCE: I had 2 "Magnifica class" experience with AZ, and both recently. I booked my flight to BOS from MXP on AZ, the aircraft was a B767 and I was expe
56 KLMflyer: Gamarocchi: I flew MLA/MXP/FCO on Sun Jan 25th 2004 - AZ 885/AZ 1043 - A319 on both legs. Excellent aircraft. And as you I really enjoy flying on the
57 VCE: This is an yr own experience dear KLMflyer. I could bring you at least dozen of similar experiences i had with BA,LH, and i don't tell you all the pro
58 Gamarocchi: VCE, VCE... Being Italian I don't have anything against Italy in particular. And while I am not a guy for nationalism, I did say that there is nothing
59 KLMflyer: Dear VCE: I'm not following any trend, and i do not like to be associated to trends or crownds. This is also one of the reasons why i decided to move
60 Alitalia7e7: Look at all this negativity towards Alitalia. I can agree with most posts, Italy needs an international carrier, it has the fourth largest tourism mar
61 KLMflyer: yes, Alitalia7e7, you're right, KLM used to fly the 747-400 on the MXP-SIN-SYD route. I apologize for mistaenly indicated -300 instead of -400
62 Alitalia7e7: No Worries KLMflyer, however KLM used to fly their 300's to Syd before the alliance with Alitalia. It was a great service, 4 weekly flights from Milan
63 Hugojimenez: If Swissair, one of the world's best airlines, was let to die, I'm sure it could happen to any airline, including Mama Alitalia (which is, by far, not
64 Alitalia7e7: Hugojimenez, BOAC was not let to die at all. BOAC is now known as British Airways. British Airways for formed in the 70's with the merger of British C
65 Bicoastal: Italy does not "need" a flag carrier. If there's a market and a profit to be made, other EU (no more borders, correct?) carriers and other foreign car
66 Hugojimenez: Alitalia7e7 Sorry for disagree. BOAC is dead long time ago. BA definitely is my favourite European airline. Merger or not between BOAC and British Cal
67 Gamarocchi: Bicoastal: I disagree with you. While having a "flag" carrier is not, strictly speaking, a "need", it is a helping factor in the development of the ec
68 KLMflyer: Bicoastal & Gamarocchi: I understand Bicoastal's point of view. Probably we should have to translate the right meaning for "flag carrier". If it's the
69 KLMflyer: it looks the following appeared quite garbled so I'm posting it again. The US travelers prefer to fly with a US airline and currently we have the foll
70 FlyTPA: I'm an Italian-American and I've been to Italy 12 times in the past 10 years. On my first Alitalia flight, LHR-FCO, in 1991 (AB3), the crew actually f
71 Gamarocchi: KLMflyer, I agree 100% with you. We don't need a "flag" carrier like BA is or AF, I agree that is too much for Italy. And in fact I hope AF and AZ wil
72 Phaeton: My father often flies the route Munich - Milan Malpensa with either Alitalia or Lufthansa. He prefers Alitalia because the planes are always empty and
73 Gamarocchi: FlyTpa, your post sums up exactly what the problem with Alitalia is. You witnessed what I call "Italian public employee" mindset. You know what I am a
74 FlyTPA: Gamarocchi, I agree. Change won't come easily. If the employees don't like what's going on, they can just call a strike and put the entire country in
75 Hugojimenez: My father often flies the route Munich - Milan Malpensa with either Alitalia or Lufthansa. He prefers Alitalia because the planes are always empty and
76 KLMflyer: Gamarocchi & FlyTpa: when a company has to deal with a crisis management, a sharp change in company culture is unavoidable if the results have to be p
77 Alitalia7e7: Do you think Alitalia should follow the paths of Olympic Airways. Create a new Airline with same IATA Code etc instead call it Alitalia Airways and ma
78 Bicoastal: Alitalia needs a good dose of Margaret Thatcher to stand up and defeat the labor unions.
79 VCE: Alitalia needs a good dose of Margaret Thatcher to stand up and defeat the labor unions. I agree at 1000%. I think we are in the right way
80 Gamarocchi: FlyTpa: > If only the new Embraers and Airbuses could bring a new attitude for the > workers inside of them! Yea and don't forget the new Boeing too!!
81 FlyTPA: True, that triple 7 looks so sweet in Alitalia's livery. I hope you have an enjoyable ride on BOTH of them soon.
82 Kevin752: I hope that Alitalia stays around. That airline makes Itlay proud. I am so glad that LAX will be another city that will be served by the NEW Alitalia