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An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways  
User currently offlineWGW2707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1197 posts, RR: 34
Posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7446 times:

This thread is addressed to the pilots of Delta Air Lines and to the employees in general of US Airways. It is not addressed to the flight attendants, ground personnel and other staff of Delta Air Lines who have already had to accept huge paycheck reductions.

I beseech you to realize the dangerous position you are putting your jobs and the jobs of your fellow employees, millions of dollars worth of investments, and the future of airline service along your respective employers' routes in. By failing to agree to slight reductions in your paycheck, you run the risk that you will never receive a paycheck from Delta or US Airways again. This is not a question of you being over-compensated, or in more simple terms you not being worth the money the company spends on you, but rather a question of your company not being able to sustain its current cost structure due to a dramatic decrease in revenue. Since the tragic events of 9/11 and the economic downturn, economic patterns, especially relating to travel, have shifted dramatically.

Instead of preferring to fly on the well established network carriers, the public have turned in large numbers to an ever expanding number of low cost carriers, which take advantage of a large number of often temporary cost advantages to hugely under-sell the major carriers in terms of ticket prices, yet which are able to generate a profit as a result due to their low cost structure. The major carriers have to match the low fares on routes that face LCC competition, for obvious reasons. However, to do so frequently results in a loss as the major carriers have much higher cost structures. A portion of this cost is inevitable; it is baggage left over from years of doing business, years of debts, years of pensions accumulating and the added costs associated with providing regional and international services and using a hub-and-spoke route system.

However, the larger portion of these costs are adjustable. Both Delta and US Airways have made admirable progress in reducing costs in other areas, by cutting back service and improving efficiency. However, in both cases, one final area of cost needs to be addressed: labor costs. The salaries paid to pilots at Delta are way out of proportion to the industry average, and the salaries paid to most employees at US Airways remain out of proportion to the company's ability to generate revenue. This means that the sad reality is, as long as Delta and US Airways continue paying you what they currently are, they cannot generate a profit.

In both cases, management has made huge strides in reducing costs elsewhere, but still it is not enough. The LCCs are eroding the marketshare of both airlines and will continue to do so. In addition to the LCCs, both airlines also face the problem of competition from other network carriers and for shorter hauls, competition from the automobile. More people drive rather than fly now than before 9/11. Delta and US Airways both suffer from some of the highest cost structures in the industry, and until they can lower their labor costs this will continue to be the case, meaning that in the current economic condition it is unlikely that either company will be able to generate a profit. Both companies will run out of cash and be forced into bankruptcy.

By voting for concessions when it comes time to cast your ballot (assuming negotiations get that far with the leaders of your unions), you will be securing the long-term future of your paycheck, your pension and your travel benefits. I urge you to consider before voting "no" on a concession what your single no vote could potentially cost. It could cost you a 30-50% involuntary reduction in your salary when your company enters Chapter 11 protection (and it WILL), or worse, it could cause you to no longer receive any paycheck at all should your company be liquidated. In addition, thousands of investors, many of them elderly retired persons, would loose their savings that they had invested in your companies under almost any scenario involving your company entering into bankruptcy. Finally, the consumer will loose out because left to their own devices with no competition, the LCCs will quickly raise their fares on all markets they will serve exclusively. In addition, should your company go under (likely in Chapter 11), the number of non-stop flights from cities such as ATL and CLT to points around the country will be substantially reduced, in a manner similar to what has occurred at STL following the unfortunate demise of TWA. Finally, proud companies with glorious, decades-long histories spanning nearly the entirety of commercial aviation will no longer exist.

However, by agreeing to a reduction in your salary, you will ensure the future of your paycheck, the future of your job, the future of your airline. You will help keep a vital transportation service in operation. You will help to ensure that air service continues in small communities, and that competition exists on the international markets. Finally, in a few years time when your companies return to economic health and prosperity, your paychecks will almost certainly increase. Think of it as an essential investment. By agreeing to these wage cuts now, you will be investing in your future, and in the future of your companies and the jobs of your fellow employees. Management will take pay cuts along with you. By working with management, rather than against them, you will contribute a great deal to the national transport system.

I urge you to consider this appeal. Nothing less than the future of your employer, your job and the jobs of your co-workers is at stake, nothing more than a "YES" vote on a 15% paycheck reduction is necessary to solve the problem.

-WGW2707




76 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJessman From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1506 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7382 times:

Just to be clear, DL employees have not had an official "paycut". We have, however, had changes in our healthcare and retirement benefeits. Here in RES we have hade some changes in our time management expectations. The airports have drastically reduced staffing at ticket counters, gates, and the ramp. BUT Changes in gross pay haven't happened at Delta. Yet.

Other than that, I think you're right that it would be in the company's best interest if the pilots took a pay cut. The pilots won't be working if the company goes belly up. HOWEVER, the pilots' salaries are not the only thing wrong with either company, and both really need to focus on all ways to keep costs down.


User currently offlineWGW2707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1197 posts, RR: 34
Reply 2, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7316 times:

With US Airways, labor costs in general are too high. At Delta, it is a specific problem with pilots. Though other problems exist, Delta has made so many cutbacks that if pilot wages were normalized they probably would immediately enter into profitability. From my understanding of the situation, all DL is asking for is 15% from the pilots, not 30%, which I believe is the difference between their salary and what is currently the industry standard.

-WGW2707


User currently offlineScootertrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 569 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7305 times:

Look kid, I appreciate your opinion, but you have allot to learn about how the airlines operate.

This thread is addressed to the pilots of Delta Air Lines and to the employees in general of US Airways. It is not addressed to the flight attendants, ground personnel and other staff of Delta Air Lines who have already had to accept huge paycheck reductions.


So basically you are talking about pilots and mechanics? How about the wholly-owned U Express pilots at Piedmont and Allegheny? Do we cost too much? Should we all be whoring ourselves out like Mesa and Pinnacle or did your in-depth research and vast experience in the aviation industry not get to that point yet?

There is another thread here about Siegel asking for more concessions where I responded to you, so I will not repeat everything I had to say. Suffice it to say, the wage earned by the employees is not the problem. The problems (both DL and US) are primarily productivity related. By relaxing some work rules labor can help by doing more with less, but slashing wages and benefits will not change a single thing. The leadership for change has to come from management.

Your last comment is what really made me chuckle:

I urge you to consider this appeal. Nothing less than the future of your employer, your job and the jobs of your co-workers is at stake, nothing more than a "YES" vote on a 15% paycheck reduction is necessary to solve the problem.


If you think giving up another 15 percent is going to save these companies, you are seriously out of touch with reality. Giving money to those guys is like tossing it into a well... You will never see it again. By the way, do you know how the payscales between U and WN compare? As far as the pilots go, WN makes MORE.

You act as though giving up 15% of your pay is so easy... Tell me, how would you feel? Do you have a family you support? I highly doubt it. You have allot of learning to do. Don't buy everything airline CEO's try to sell you.

Scooter




User currently offlineCoa764 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 328 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7306 times:

I urge you to consider before voting "no" on a concession what your single no vote could potentially cost. It could cost you a 30-50% involuntary reduction in your salary when your company enters Chapter 11 protection (and it WILL)

This is not necessarily true in this sense. If the pilot group agrees to a pay concession of lets say 20% and the company enters chapter 11 you could and still see that additional cut of 30-50% on top of the 20% you gave away prior to entering bankruptcy.



Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
User currently offlineConcord977 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1261 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7269 times:

WGW2707,

Interesting perspective.

Your profile indicates that you are age 16-20. Is this correct?



No info
User currently offlineWGW2707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1197 posts, RR: 34
Reply 6, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7233 times:

In reply to Scootertrash:

The increasing tend of regional operations being outsourced to airlines such as Mesa is demonstrative of the high cost associated with operating these routes and as your comments make it clear, the higher cost of having in-house employees staff these services. Outsourcing regional operations has been a hugely successful way for many airlines to reduce costs and increase profitability. A case-in-point example is Delta Connection, which consists of seperate companies and wholly owned subsidiaries with different labor contracts that compete for the right to operate regional services, thus keeping costs low. Delta Connection is currently the only part of Delta that makes money.

While it is unfortunate that the need exists for your salary to be cut, and while your lifestyle may be affected slightly, I should like to point out that taking a 15% cut is hugely preferrable to taking a 30-50% cut or worse, loosing your job altogether. I assure you that if Delta and/or US Airways go out of business, their employees lifestyle will suffer a lot more than it would should they accept a modest pay reduction.

Accepting relaxation in work rules is another critical area to achieving savings, but certainly in the case of Delta and probably in the case of US Airways, it will not be alone sufficient to save the airline. US Airways must have a 700 million cash reserve by the end of the summer and must be profitable by 2005. Delta will have around 1 billion less cash at the end of the year than it has now. Clearly, it should be evident that this is short-term problem, but a critical one, one in which all employees should make contributions to solving the problem. Over time, with a short term reduction in salary and a permanent improvement in productivity, the situation will certainly improve. However right now it is clear that US Airways and Delta need every possible saving.

The unfortunate reality of the industry today is that low cost carriers are winning more passengers away from the major carriers through a combination of lower fares and marketing. The LCCs are in reality not that much different, the main difference being their service tends to be more selective, poaching passengers on more lucrative markets and doing less nitty-gritty low yield or high cost intercontinental operation, but given the opportunity to charge a high fare most LCCs will do so without question. Should more major carriers go out of business there will be a reduction in the quality of service. Until the economy recovers, it is therefore neccessary for employees of US Airways, Delta and other troubled airlines (SAS for instance) to agree to short-term concessions in order to secure the long term future of their job.

In reply to CoA764:
If Delta manages to get a concession from the pilots, entry into bankruptcy will be highly unlikely. If you study their financial position you will see that that is where the money is being lost. At US Airways, in all probability with the upcoming deals with Richard Branson, the improvements in productivity, the entry into Star Alliance and most importantly, the modification of the requirements for repayment of the ATSB-guaranteed loan, agreeing to these concessions now will also ensure profitability. Minus the additional labor and productivity expenses being discussed here, both airlines would certainly be in a better economic position.

-WGW2707


User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7209 times:

By working with management, rather than against them, you will contribute a great deal to the national transport system.

Like passively getting ripped a new rear-end hole? There's unions for a reason- to keep management's snotty hands off of the employees. There needs to be some unilateral cooperation...not just blind submission to mgmt.

Perhaps you should crank out a thread "An Appeal to (greedy) Management of Delta"...they are much of the problem as well. Don't get me wrong, DALPA should give some cash, but with just cause....how do they know that managment isn't just going to piss it away with fare sales and more bonuses and another paint scheme? There's a thousand ways to filter that...

Honestly, I'm sick and tired of hearing that paycuts NEED to happen because everyone else is doing it...just because little Jimmy next door had a skateboard doesnt mean it was what you had to have, right? I will agree 15% is reasonable...but not 33 frikkin percent!

I respect you for going out on a limb...but the issues of DL and UsAir are different entities...for different reasons. Trust me, ALPA and Mgmt will do something...just, the question is when.

Delta(ready to get flamed)Guy


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7183 times:

Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion of course, but people who do not work in the industry itself can only learn so much. Interesting comments on the situation at DL/US, but I think that many people on here will find some of those comments to be arrogant and presumptuous, however truthful those comments may be. You obviously are firmly behind the pilots taking pay cuts, but there are always two sides to every story. I'm sure the pilots will have a dramatically different view of things. Fact is, it will take more than pay cuts to get ship righted.


Steve/MSY


User currently offlineScootertrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 569 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7163 times:


Outsourcing regional operations has been a hugely successful way for many airlines to reduce costs and increase profitability


I disagree about outsourcing. What you say has some validity if the Express operation is in house, that is, a wholly-owned subsidiary. But contracting to affiliate carriers is rather foolish, especially fee-for-departure arrangements. You are giving revenue to another corperate entity whether that flight makes a profit or not. To say nothing of the fact that you has less control of your product and will suffer the resulting consumer response.

Your next comment is great:

While it is unfortunate that the need exists for your salary to be cut, and while your lifestyle may be affected slightly, I should like to point out that taking a 15% cut is hugely preferable to taking a 30-50% cut or worse, loosing your job altogether. I assure you that if Delta and/or US Airways go out of business, their employees lifestyle will suffer a lot more than it would should they accept a modest pay reduction.


Listen kid, you have no idea what I make so I will tell you. As a senior U Group Turboprop FO, I knock down a measly 35K per year pre tax. That is flying 1000 hours per year and being away from home 210 nights. I can guarantee U is getting there money's worth out of me. You think another 15% (that will NEVER happen- where'd you get that number anyway?) of my salary is going to save U Group? Dude, step away from the management books and the CEO kool-aid.

By the way, do you think the money I have already given up has just a "slight effect" on my lifestyle? Are you freaking nuts? Go balance the checkbook and pay the bills with mom and dad for a few months, then come talk to me. Your comment that this supposed 15% pay cut would only be a slight impediment to peoples lifestyles only further demonstrates your immaturity.

You write well and you are obviously enthusiastic. I hope you continue to pursue your interests. But don't pontificate to people who are out here doing this job in the real world.

Scooter


User currently offlineWGW2707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1197 posts, RR: 34
Reply 10, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7156 times:

Concord977, all information in my profile is accurate.

DeltaGuy and MSYTristar

Delta's current pilot wages are absurdly high compared to the industry average, this is one thing that cannot be denied. It is unfortunate that Delta can no longer pay the industry-leading wages it was once known for, however the economic situation requires drastic measures. One thing we can agree on is that unless action is taken both Delta and US Airways do not have a positive long-term outlook.

It should be noted, by the way, that my position on this issue is not unconventional in the slightest. Management at both Delta and US Airways are calling for what I am advocating here: that employees be willing to make concessions. From my understanding the pilots at Delta and the FAs and mechanics at US Airways so far haven't even been willing to sit at the table and discuss this matter.

The management at both US Airways and Delta surely understands the problems facing the airline as well as any of us here. Both management teams have made admirable progress in cost cutting where it is possible to do it. Admittedly they have made errors; US exited Chapter 11 without making enough cost reductions and Delta didn't respond quickly enough to post 9/11 economic changes and wasted money elsewhere. However, they have also made positive improvements in other areas. It cannot be argued that the management of either airline is wholly incompetent. Since clearly the management of both companies seem to be doing a fairly competent job, and since clearly they are competent and responsible, and willing to take cuts themselves, the validity of their argument for lower wages should be recognized.

All I am doing is agreeing with the management of these airlines that their wages need to be reduced to ensure economic stability, and beseeching their employees who would happen to read this thread to recognize the situation and to go along with these proposed reductions.

-WGW2707


User currently offlineBoingGoingGone From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7133 times:

From my understanding of the situation, all DL is asking for is 15% from the pilots, not 30%, which I believe is the difference between their salary and what is currently the industry standard.

This is exactly right and why UAL is moving ahead today, even if not at a sprint. They did what they needed to do.


User currently offlineMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 876 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7131 times:

I think management should take a 15% pay cut along with their pilots. The CEO's and CFO's of this world making millions of dollars that they do not deserve should take a solidarious pay cut. Laborers, you should not back down to management. For years, companies wasted away at their bursary and now YOU are being forced to pay. If an airline like Delta where to collapse (which is highly unlikely), then a new airline would arise and take its place. All these airlines do is complain and complain, while the customer has been and continues to be subjected to substandard service and higher than necessary fares.


"Like all great travelers, I have seen more than I remember, and remember more than I have seen."
User currently offlineBoingGoingGone From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7106 times:

MIA... Everyone in the industry needs to re-evaluate their salaries.

User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7092 times:

Upper management pay at most airlines is ridiculous to say the least. Notice I did not mention city/station managers....those people are underpaid across the board....just look at the work they do, all that they are responsible for....give them a 15% pay increase and take 15% away from the people who won't even notice the 15% cut off the paycheck. Alas, no one ever said this was a "just" industry to work in. Many people do it for the love of aviation, not for the $$$.


Steve/NewOrleans


User currently offlineCoa764 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 328 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7079 times:

If Delta manages to get a concession from the pilots, entry into bankruptcy will be highly unlikely. If you study their financial position you will see that that is where the money is being lost.

I have no clue what DAL financial position is but I find it hard to believe that the reason for DAL problems are solely to blame on labor issue (I am sure the folks over at ALPA would love to discuss it with you, you should post your message on their website). I can tell you something about another airline, CAL. CAL has been cutting cost over the last two years and has yet to ask for one labor cut. Care to guess the reason... employee relations. Happy employees mean productive employees that in turn treat your customer base right by delivering a safe, friendly and professional product. Gordon and his crew understand this and that is why pay cuts will be the last source of cost reductions you see at CAL. If you keep bleeding the employee groups for cost saving you loose the one productivity tool that is your number one key to success, a happy and motivated worker.



Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
User currently offlineWGW2707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1197 posts, RR: 34
Reply 16, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 7069 times:

I think management should take a 15% pay cut along with their pilots. The CEO's and CFO's of this world making millions of dollars that they do not deserve should take a solidarious pay cut. Laborers, you should not back down to management. For years, companies wasted away at their bursary and now YOU are being forced to pay. If an airline like Delta where to collapse (which is highly unlikely), then a new airline would arise and take its place. All these airlines do is complain and complain, while the customer has been and continues to be subjected to substandard service and higher than necessary fares.

Such quasi-socialistic "I deserve the same pay as the CEO" thinking will get the employees nowhere. Delta and US Airways WILL collapse if savings are not made as soon as possible. US Airways MUST have $700 million in the bank this summer, and they MUST be profitable by 2005. Otherwise, it's back to Chapter 11, or worse, Chapter 7. Delta has a huge loan payment coming up this fall and from my understanding will have only half the cash it had coming into 2004 at the end of the year. That kind of negative cash flow is unsustainable, if it continues by 2006 DL will be out of cash and out of business. Both companies are in a crises.

It will do no good at all for the employees of US and DL to refuse these cuts in salaries. They must accept these cuts, becuase the simple economic facts indicate that unless these cost reductions are made, both companies WILL go out of business. The petty greed of the IAM mechanics at Eastern, who were filled with such similiar socialistic propaganda in the union war against management, killed the company. Airliners.net has several former Eastern employees who lost their jobs between 1989 and 1991, I'm sure they'd be more than happy to tell you how much fun going through that was. Anyone can see the eerie parallels between the situation at Eastern in the 1980s and the situation facing Delta and US Airways today. Hopefully though, we will have learned from our mistakes, and the employees will realize that if they want to benefit from working for a great company such as Delta or US Airways, sometimes they must contribute something back to their employer. It's a question of mutual aid and social responsibility.

So let's just set aside these pointless "Power to the People!" arguments and focus on the economic facts shall we? DL and US will go bankrupt unless savings are made, and the employees of both companies unfortunately have to give up something. Not much, but they must contribute. Otherwise they, and everyone else associated with their companies, will stand to loose everything. It's that simple.

-WGW2707


User currently offlineBoingGoingGone From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 7032 times:

DL's pilots make anywhere from 20-28% more than any other airline across the board in like aircraft. Nearly twice as much as a CO pilot on some birds.

Crew Block Hour Costs:

737-300/700
DL $1024
CO $ 549

MD-80
DL $910
CO $554

737-800/900
DL $1100
CO $ 697

767-200
DL $954
CO $705

757-200
DL $1050
CO $ 560

767-400
DL $926
CO $700

777-200
DL $ 1667
CO $ 942

Are DL pilots doing anything different than the CO pilots are? I would would argue the CO pilots are the ones actually doing more, and for less money They've face the loss of a company and survived. Makes all the difference int he world.






User currently offlineWGW2707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1197 posts, RR: 34
Reply 18, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6966 times:

BoingGoingGone raised a critical point-the disparity of pilot wages at Delta vs. those at the other airlines. There is nothing DL pilots do that their brethren elsewhere do not. So one clearly sees that this is clearly the area where Delta needs to cut costs the most.

CoA, admittedly having no clue as to DL's financial position you would not realize that CO had lower cost structures than DL at the time of the downturn and was better off in certain regards. At that time DL appeared to be better off due to its larger size and fantastic position, and consequently it was difficult for management to bring the wages into line with industry standard with such an elevated public image of the company. CO on the other hand had a much more viable cost structure, as is now evident, and was in a completely different position pre-9/11 anyway. After 9/11, they were able to reduce costs quickly using a wide variety of means not related to staff salaries, and it was indeed fortunate that they were able to do this. This does not by any means show that Delta and US Airways can or should do the same thing.

Their problems are completely different than CO's were. Under Bethune, CO was recovering from a series of crises, bankruptcies and mismanagement in the late 80s and early 90s, DL on the other hand was a classic example of a network carrier being unable to turn itself around in an economic downturn and being caught on the point, and US Airways was a company plagued for much of its history by huge inefficiency. So the realities are quite different at the three airlines.

-WGW2707


User currently offlineAfay1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1293 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6955 times:

Decent service would also help Delta survive. It's called Deltaflot for a reason...

User currently offlineWn700driver From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6929 times:

Like passively getting ripped a new rear-end hole? There's unions for a reason- to keep management's snotty hands off of the employees. There needs to be some unilateral cooperation...not just blind submission to mgmt.

Another great reason never to work for an LCC, unless of course you are young, single, & looking for hours in a T-fan. Certain companies who shall remain nameless may purport to be employee friendly, but never trust ANY company that refuses a perfectly qualified new hire for no reason other than that new potetial hire has experience at a union company.

As for the topic, there is no question that DL drivers make more than the averace by quite a leap, but 15% (If that is the correct fig.) is not to much to ask. Even if that comes to pass, you can bet my resume will find its way to DL soon. Just a little perspective there.
As for management giving some too, well, I will refer you all to the case of the goose V gander.


User currently offlineQF744 From Australia, joined Feb 2004, 415 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6909 times:

WGW2707,

do you work in management in one of the two airlines?




IT'S ALL ABOUT THE UPPER DECK
User currently offlineWGW2707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1197 posts, RR: 34
Reply 22, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6868 times:

QF744,

No, and if I did, I probably wouldn't be able to (for various legal reasons) post such a topic on this website. I am an enthusiast with a knowledge of aviation history urging employees of Delta and US Airways to accept pay cuts if management asks, and to urge them to realize the highly tenuous financial position their respective companies are in. I care about the employees of Delta and US Airways, and this whole situation is looking eerily similiar to that of Eastern Air Lines in the 1980s. I don't think the EAL scenario is something any educated member of airliners.net would like to see repeated. It's neccessary for employees to see beyond their own pocketbooks and agree to concessions, to ensure the future of their careers in the long run. If you want a recent example of what happens to the employees when a great airline goes under, look no further than TWA.

-WGW2707


User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6841 times:

Hey, why don't we just go hand this thread to DL's gate guard and ask em to go take this over to Gerald  Yeah sure ...I'll even use my nonrev benefits to hand carry it, I'm sure they'll listen..

Such quasi-socialistic "I deserve the same pay as the CEO" thinking will get the employees nowhere. Delta and US Airways WILL collapse if savings are not made as soon as possible.
No, pilots don't deserve as much as the CEO, but at the same time, asking management to actually LEAD by example isn't asking for too much...you can't be like Clinton, on your fat arse, but you gotta be more like a Gen. Patton...out there giving an example (ok, a rough analogy) I do appreciate Grienstein's gesture of capping his salary at 500K...that move shows that he isn't just a ruler in a high throne..but it is still far more than most pilots make anyways. So no, there's not a "same pay" attitude. Asking Leo and Reid and all those other morons to give back their mega-huge bonuses was not unreasonable in the least...and if you ask me, that started a huge grudge still held by ALPA...and it's going to take alot of rebuilding to gain employee's trust back- would be nice to have CO and SW's enthusiasm combined.

I agree with Scootertrash and MSYTristar...it will take alot more to heal the company's wounds and bad decisions...15%, 30%, whatever, it's not the total solution. And think about it...there's only a handul of guys flying the 8 777's out there, pulling $250K + salaries...if they take 30% say, that brings em to $175K-ish....as opposed to the junior 732 F/O in his 5th year (who, by the way, is bairley hanging on, as his 5 years bairley keep him there) makes around $80k-ish, and a 30% cut from that would be $56K....big difference for the junior guy. This is before taxes, mind you. The paycuts should be pro-rated (nothing against the widebody guys)...but the brunt will be felt the most by the narrowbody junior guys- who haven't quite hit millionare status yet....and nevermind what other airlines are doing guys, so leave that alone.

Management at both Delta and US Airways are calling for what I am advocating here: that employees be willing to make concessions. From my understanding the pilots at Delta and the FAs and mechanics at US Airways so far haven't even been willing to sit at the table and discuss this matter.

You do sound like you've had too much coffee from the management pot today....you sound like those brainwashed Delta pilots that send out those emails to DALPA members, proliferating managment trash and ideas and asking their brothers to jump on the bandwagon. Also, Delta pilots HAVE communicated with management...they're just at a stalemate. I can't say for sure what the UsScare guys are doing, so I won't start...and try being the family of a DL 732 FO who just got off of an 8 month furlough who ALREADY lost half his salary from displacements...these pilots (like many, I know) aren't only getting done over salary wise, but also displacements, so there's even more money to be lost...by the way, my father's furlough was announced about the same week as management pay raises were...gee, where's the tact in that? I'd like to think there's a Delta there one day when some of us are looking for jobs.....

Where's Bucky707 and MD88Captain when we need em?  Sad

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineBruce From United States of America, joined May 1999, 5066 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6814 times:

Judging by the Crew Block Hour list above, DL is 65% to as much as 95% higher than CO. I'm not sure what that equals for each member's pay level but I do think there is room for DL to come DOWN and yet still be the industry pay leader.

Even to a layperson, those numbers above do seem out of whack.

I wonder what the DL management pay is compared to the industry? out of whack also?

I think it is BOTH pilots and management that must come down, not ONE group.



Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
25 Post contains images DeltaGuy : Thank you Bruce...nice to see some support on this side! I'd like to think DL pilots could still retain their edge on pay..... Alrightey.....name a wa
26 QIguy24 : I agree with most of you guys.. It's not only the employees that has to make a paycut. The management should do that as well.. We just had this proble
27 N6376m : As a shareholder in Delta, the attitude of the pilots makes me just sick. You work for me (or at least you're supposed to). This "full pay to the last
28 Post contains images Flyguyclt : IF, and that is a huge word. IF, you are a successfull management team, people do what you do. Not what you say. With that said, as an airline employe
29 Canoecarrier : I sit here reading these posts from WGW2707 and think of him as a grade school kid playing the game of "Life" It all seems so real to you doesn't it?
30 Artsyman : It is not addressed to the flight attendants, ground personnel and other staff of Delta Air Lines who have already had to accept huge paycheck reducti
31 Ifly2eat : Wait I get it. We should fly planes for free because we love our jobs!
32 N6376m : Ifly2eat - No, you should fly planes for what the market says you should be paid. If you don't think that's enough, then you should find another (high
33 BoingGoingGone : I love pilot responses to these threads. It's a plane, a plane is a plane, pay me to fly it. Damned the cost!!! It's about your production value to th
34 Kanebear : CanoeCarrier, that standard of living is definitely going to suffer if DL goes bankrupt or goes under, isn't it. I'm part of a family-owned business t
35 AirframeAS : I think management should take a 15% pay cut along with their pilots. The CEO's and CFO's of this world making millions of dollars that they do not de
36 Sv7887 : Hi All, Interesting thread. I'll be up front, I'm just a student pursuing an Economics degree..But like everyone I'm entitled to an opinion. I agree w
37 Ord : "THIS is where the problem lies: the CEO wages. CEO's who make millions, all they do is sit on their butt and look out the window and watch planes go
38 N6376m : ORD, In theory I agree that the free-market dictates wages, but in practice I think that this isn't necessarily true in the corporate board room. In o
39 Ifly2eat : N6376m, Since you seem bent on replying directly to other members directly, here goes mine. A incredible amount of my friends have done just what you
40 N6376m : Ifly2eat, In case you haven't been reading the papers, doctors are leaving the profession in scores. Run a google search. Your argument seems to be ba
41 Isitsafenow : Industries have changed. Manufacturing has turned to labor in China and Mexico. Airline Pax have gone to low fairs or carriers with "deals". The probl
42 Post contains links FlyingDoctorWu : In case you haven't been reading the papers, doctors are leaving the profession in scores. Run a google search. That my friend is unfortunately true..
43 Jbmitt : There was mention that Delta Connection is the only part of Delta making money. Can somebody confirm my hunch, that they are only making money based o
44 FlyPNS1 : You're correct, Jbmitt. DL Connection's "profits" are very cloudy to say the least. As long as mainline DL is losing money, those "profits" at DL Conn
45 ComairCVG : Is there any rumors about hostile take-overs of either Delta or US Airways? I am a Comair employee and I have been hearing rumors of a Delta bankruptc
46 LTBEWR : One of the biggest problems for 'Legacy' carriers vs. almost all of the LCC's are the costs of pension/retirement plans. Many companies when they cut
47 Scootertrash : Isitsafenow: This comment is really far off the mark: Problem is that the problem of $$$$ is trickled down to people like SCOOTERTRASH. With his attit
48 Coa764 : Hi All, Interesting thread. I'll be up front, I'm just a student pursuing an Economics degree..But like everyone I'm entitled to an opinion. I agree w
49 I LOVE EWR : WGW2707 do you have a job? If so why don't you take a 50% cut in pay? Think about how that would affect you. Better yet put yourself in the shoes of a
50 Canoecarrier : Do you think the DL board has offered to take the same cuts in pay that they want the Pilot Union to take? Of course not. that standard of living is d
51 WGW2707 : A few points: First of all, admittedly I was slightly inaccurate with regards to the cuts taken by Delta employees other than pilots. Instead of a dir
52 Coa764 : A 15% reduction in your wage is NOT going to kill you Since you have already stated that the information in your profile is correct I am curious about
53 Canoecarrier : So, because management says, "you have to take a pay cut, or we're going to go out of business" (something they say everytime they need concessions fr
54 Isitsafenow : SCOOTERTRASH....I got a little chuckle from your last line..... that I don't know what IM talking about. Try this. I own my company. I make a lot of d
55 Sv7887 : Coa764, Not to get personal here, but I am not working for a troubled carrier. The economics and pay scales of the Airline Industry are dramatically d
56 VC745D : Anyone know what happened to the alter-ego of this thread entitled "An Appeal to the Passengers of Delta and USAirways"?
57 Sydscott : Good point VC. Where has our resident economic theorist gone???? For my 2 cents worth I dont think its the salaries per say that are the problems wit
58 Coa764 : That's not true in the case of Wall St. Big boys like Merrill Lynch and Goldman Sachs dominate the industry and therefore can pay whatever they want
59 Sydscott : "I hate to say it, but it's easier to replace a pilot than it is with a Harvard MBA educated Vice President who objects to his salary being cut." I t
60 Shortsfa : Well, someone needs to get there facts straight UsAirways employees have taken paycuts, benefit cuts and work rule changes. We are in line with SWA in
61 WGW2707 : I don't see anyone blaming the TWA, Pan Am or Braniff employees for the failure of their airlines... For sure all airline failures are in part due to
62 Wn700driver : I recently read one report of LCCs preferring not to hire former employees of the Big Six Network Carriers. Not so much a prefference as a Rule. The r
63 Sv7887 : Coa764, Let's get something straight: Don't take your frustrations out on people who are posting their opinions. Those college text book theories you
64 Spoon04 : I asked the following question on another thread, and I'll ask it here.... just where does the concession chain end? With this latest round? With mor
65 Airways6max : It is clear in these tough times that everyone has to tighten their belts. The choice here is pretty clear: continue to have a steady income, even if
66 Sv7887 : Spoon04, To answer your question, I don't think the calls for wage cuts will ever end. For management it's just an convenient thing to cry about when
67 Spoon04 : Sv7887, I think you're absolutely right-on. Management DOES HOLD all the cards and leverage. Hell, where's Luca Brazzi when you really need him? But i
68 Coa764 : My statement about taking pay cuts focuses on this central issue: Management drives the bus..They are going to do what is best for them. With the mark
69 Sv7887 : Hi All, Let me first apologise to the members of this board. I didn't mean to start engage in long personal diatribes with Coa764. Some of you apparen
70 LTBEWR : One problem for many airline employees - at all levels from ramp rats to 777 pilots, is the high cost of living in many areas of the USA. Take a top p
71 767Lover : First, I think a lot of people are flaming WGW2707 unfairly. He is well spoken and has a theory. Second, as someone heavily involved a Chapter 11 situ
72 WorldTraveler : There was mention that Delta Connection is the only part of Delta making money. Can somebody confirm my hunch, that they are only making money based o
73 Bahadir : Hey you armchair airline CEO... I'd like you to go through couple of lay offs, or CFI'ing for $750/month so that you can get that $100K/year airline j
74 XUALOWNER : This is a copy from another forum: I can tell you all firsthand about Employee Stock Plans and Paycuts. My company's management sold our beloved union
75 Post contains links Psa188 : So, while we're on the topic of failing airlines, esp. USAirways, everyone should surf over to Joe Brancatelli's web site http://www.zyworld.com/branc
76 Spoon04 : Brancatelli has nailed it right on the head. Yet more examples of total mismanagement from the top on down. No addressing the atrocious hub issue whi
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