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737 Rudder  
User currently offline767Capt From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (15 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 618 times:

This summer I will be flying in a 747 but I also will be flying in a 737 I heard they had rudder problems and I never flown in one and I wanted to know is this riskey flyng in a 737?

13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (15 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 618 times:

No problem.

The rudder malfunction problem is one of the most overblown media circuses out there. Every single media outlet is using this issue to push for their pet "faa reforms". Most of which will be detrimental for safety.

The point is that there are a couple thousand of theses airplanes out there flying a couple million hours a year since the mid sixties. You will be fine.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineMD-11 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (15 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 618 times:

I don't think it is "risky" per se to fly on any aircraft certified by the JAA, FAA, etc. There are about 120 documented cases of rudder problems on 737s, but it'll statistically be less riskier to fly on a 737 then it would be to go by car for example.

User currently offlineFAUnited7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (15 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 618 times:

Gee, looks like you are crawling back, ay? The other day when I asked about the 737, you used skary words such as "You never know what might happen". Gee, thanx! You have got your re-assuring words, next time don't scare people. Like they say, IF YOU DOn'T HAVE SOMETHING NICE TO SAY, DON'T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL!

User currently offlineMirage From Portugal, joined May 1999, 3122 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (15 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 618 times:

Good point FAUnited7, I totally agree with you.

User currently offlineCool Cat IIIc From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (15 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 618 times:

Whilst I agree that statistically chances are very slim indeed of encountering any rudder problems on this particular flight you expect to take, I have to say that if I was a pilot on a 737 I would be watching this whole rudder reversal problem with full and unmodulated interest.

Then again it is very reassuring to hear that it's a overblown media circus, and by such an expert as L-188 no less.


User currently offlineIwouldn't From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (15 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 618 times:

I must differ with my esteemed colleagues. I wouldn't fly a 737 if I could avoid it. This flaw in the rudder system has destroyed two perfectly good 737s. Statistics about the safety of air travel are irrelevant. The 737 rudder is fundamentally different in design from other aircraft, including other Boeings. To get the technical explanation as to how and why this is the case, why this difference proved to be a serial killer killer having already struck twice, and what the ALPA people think needs to be done, I refer you to
http://airlinersafety.com/articles/alpa2.htm Read the report and make your decision. Every time we fly we make a bet. We bet our life that the plane will get there in one piece. But before you make a bet with your life, educate yourself.
All those millions of successful flight hours by the 737 didn't save those doomed at Pittsburgh and Colorado. Don't count on that to save you.


User currently offlineWill From Australia, joined May 1999, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (15 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 618 times:
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G'day All..
l have read on this forum about concerns over the B737 series rudder system. l haven't touched a B737 for about 7 or 8 months, so just to be over sure l rang a few friends to comfirm what was the current general results of the so called fault. First, myself and a couple of colleagues spent countless hours investigating the P.C.U. (power controll unit), the yaw damper system, and also the stand-by P.C.U. Also over the last two years countless tests have been done to find any of the so called sign of P.C.U spool valve failure, and after all of the investigation and test done personally by myself and my colleagues, the end result is that nothing was found, no evidence of spool failure was evident.
After that l contacted a friend of mine which is the head of the Australian pilots union for any evidence/reports at their end, and once again they have NO reports of in-flight rudder deflection, and all the pilot's in the association were happy to contiune to fly the aircraft.

This problem is very easily explain by L-188, and his post explains it perfectly. As a professional in the industry l have witnessed performed by others, and investigated it personally myself as a part of a team to the reported rudder problems, and we have all come up with nothing. At this point the towel shouldn't be thrown in, but eyes opened to what the true problem to the B737 series could be. l have my opinions to what happened to the two suspected rudder incidents reported that lead to the fatal crash, but what is sad is that as mentioned by L-188, it's a generated media problem, and l regret to say it's the media that is at fault in allowing the truth not being properly published.

So as for flying on the B737, get on board, order a drink, and enjoy. Laugh off the so call rudder problem, and feel as safe anyone could be. During the reports most professional airlines adopted investigations in the matter, and in conjuntion with other airlines most airlines being professional as they are, took good sense in addressing this issue. Maintence checks were conducted to the fullest, and speical simulator training was conducted in roll recovery, and training in indentifying possible rudder feel faults via the peddals.
So it's simple. l'd be happy to join you on your B737 flight any day.
l hope this sorts out some of the misconceptions of the B737, l'm sure some won't believe what the facts are, but these are what l have personally found on the type myself, and what l have discovered from other investigations. l'd be happy to answer any constructive and sensible questions on the matter, but my brain is alittle rusty on some of the technical details and l'll have to dig around some old reports to give you proper and full answers.

All the best...

Will..


User currently offlineMirage From Portugal, joined May 1999, 3122 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (15 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 618 times:

The National Transportation Safety Board has been investigating two recent events involving a United Airlines B-737-300 and a Metrojet B-737-200. Both airplanes were equipped with the new servo valve design. Information gathered by Safety Board investigators follows: On February 19, 1999, the flight crew of the United Airlines plane reported a "stiff" or sluggish rudder response while performing a flight control check while taxiing. The crew returned to the gate and requested maintenance technicians to investigate the problem. After the main rudder power control unit (PCU) was replaced, the rudder pedal
forces returned to normal. The NTSB examined the PCU and found that a valve spring guide was mispositioned. When the guide was properly positioned, the PCU passed the standard acceptance test procedure.
Further testing of the servo valve is planned for next week. On February 23, 1999, a Metrojet plane en route from Orlando, Florida, to Hartford, Connecticut, experienced an unintended heading change while on
autopilot and cruising at approximately 260 knots at 33,000 feet over Salisbury, Maryland. The pilots declared an emergency - noting a problem with the rudder - and diverted to Baltimore-Washington International Airport for a precautionary landing. NTSB removed the flight data and cockpit voice recorders, the main rudder PCU and several other parts for its investigation. To date, the NTSB has not found anything in its inspection of the Metrojet airplane and the components that would explain the in-flight event. Following the event, the rudder PCU passed the required acceptance tests; it is undergoing further
examination. Preliminary analysis of the FDR appears to indicate that a rudder deflection occurred, but further analysis of the data is being conducted. The CVR had recorded over the event, so its data was useless to the investigation. Examinations of the servo valves from the PCUs of both aircraft showed no sign of the cracking that has been detected on some production models of the new PCUs.

Source: NTSB

Mirage, Faro, Portugal


User currently offlineWill From Australia, joined May 1999, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (15 years 4 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 619 times:
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G'day All..
Good work Mirage, l like seeing someone present me with decent facts, and it's good to see you have some good stuff, and l respect that. l to have come across these reports, and sadly to say l can add personel speculation to some of the findings and/or events, it continues to become very hard to personally comment further on these reports having not being involed, or personally being able to conslut those involed in the investigation of these particular reports. l wish l could because l'd love dearly to find out what happened to these 737's, and fix the problem "whatever" for all aircraft, and have us all fly safely for the future.
One thing l forgot to mention, is due to the media and public pressure in this matter, whether it to correct or not, the B737 rudder system is currently being modified with more understanding and reliability so if this rudder problem to be true or not, it will thankfully never be able to occur again in the future. More of a reason to happily fly on the B737 series.
Personally l feel more understanding in these incidents should be investigated other than suspected rudder incidents and the thought up mod's, to be sure that we are barking up the right tree, so that our familes and friends fly safe in the future.

See yah ....

Will.......


User currently offlineCool Cat IIIc From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (15 years 4 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 618 times:

Will, just because you have worked on them extensively and haven't found anything doesn't mean that there isn't a problem. It may just mean that there is a problem but that it occurs very infrequently. This brings us into the area of risk management, ie how likely is it to happen and how severe are the results. Not very likely and quite severe I should think.

It's the old saying; as a scientist you can only prove something does happen, you can never prove something does not happen. While all of this may be getting a bit academic, it certainly isn't trivial since the potential results are quite desastrous and it needs to be taken seriously.


User currently offlineWill From Australia, joined May 1999, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (15 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 618 times:
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Cool cat...
l could not agree with you more about the scientist quote you just wrote. Thats why airlines are still doing rudder check's, mods, and pilot training still to this very day. So with all my background it makes me wonder how much power the media is in at one tracking people's minds, l write and talk about the 737's rudder to get people to look futher into the incidents and many reports of uncommanded rolls, and find the "real" problem before it kills more people. But then again, it makes me think that someone from the media who writes about football one week, and the 737's rudder proplem the next, does know more than me about 737's. Maybe l should go back and do another ten years on the aircraft before l'm up to the publics standard...


Will..

Cool Cat IIIc wrote:
-------------------------------
Will, just because you have worked on them extensively and haven't found anything doesn't mean that there isn't a problem. It may just mean that there is a problem but that it occurs very infrequently. This brings us into the area of risk management, ie how likely is it to happen and how severe are the results. Not very likely and quite severe I should think.

It's the old saying; as a scientist you can only prove something does happen, you can never prove something does not happen. While all of this may be getting a bit academic, it certainly isn't trivial since the potential results are quite desastrous and it needs to be taken seriously.


User currently offlineCool Cat IIIc From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (15 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 618 times:

Will, just to let you know, I do agree with you on the media issue. They tend to write things without knowing anything about it and without thinking (or rather caring) about the implications of what they write.

User currently offlineCorrection From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (15 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 618 times:

that website is:
http://airlinesafety.com/articles/alpa2.htm


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