FLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4512 posts, RR: 3 Posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5693 times:
With more 747-200 aircraft as well as -300 models being relegated to cargo duties, it made me wonder about the feasability of airlines using combi aircraft on low-density passenger routes.
For example, if an airline wanted to operate a 747 in combi-mode, would they have to have the main-deck cargo area stop at door 4, as found with EVA, KLM, etc., or would they have the option of increasing the cargo area as far forward as just aft of door 2 or door 3? [Thinking along the lines of if the airlines just left it as-is, with pretty much no "quick-change" option to complicate wiring, pipes, etc.]
With trans-oceanic range, the planes could at least take 150-175 Economy Class passengers, as well as 18-24 Business Class passengers. This would be similar to having the capacity of CO's 757's across The Pond, but with signifigantly more cargo...
Would it be possible and would airlines actually put it to use?
Andz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8582 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5521 times:
SAA had 2 747-200 combis, one of which crashed into the Indian Ocean in November 1987 killing all aboard, one theory was that a fire in the main deck cargo caused the crash so the other one was converted to all passenger.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
Canoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2918 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5494 times:
I could be wrong about the model, but I think EVA operates a 744 from TPE-SEA. I've worked the flight before, and always have been an admirer of combi aircraft. I hope they continue. A previous thread on here seemed to discount the future of combi's, but I do hope they continue.
I'm haven't seen any Airbus mods to combi's, but I'm sure EVA operates the 747. Given the high value and time sensitive products shipped from the orient, I would think there is some market for a plane that can carry 200 pax and a good load of cargo.
Philsquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5380 times:
The FAA will certify them. The issue is there is a NPRM issued by the FAA as the result of the SAA crash. The proposed changes require a variety of things, but basically, you have to have either a dedicated fire fighter in the main deck cargo area or you have to have fire protection in the main deck cargo area. The aircraft aren't built with that, so the only option is a dedicated crew member.
That is why there are no combis flown into or out of the US and why no US airline has operated a Combi 747/MD-11. True Air Mike did operate some 727s in the combi configuration, but those were gone when the NPRM was issued.
Philsquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5047 times:
You're right about KLM and their combis. I have used them several times positioning to AMS, however, they were configured as all pax, no freight on the main deck. I am not sure KLM is using them in the real combi configuration to the US.
As far as a fire on the main deck, the problem is there is no fire protection, just fire detection.
PW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 3034 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5020 times:
As far as a fire on the main deck, the problem is there is no fire protection, just fire detection
All fine and well, but I still don't understand why main deck cargo [Combi] would not be allowed, while lower deck cargo [hold] would be acceptable??
I'm not sure if Combi aircraft have fire surpression on main deck. If not, it should not be impossible to modify the aircraft.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
B747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4988 times:
In belly cargo fires (747) there is fire detection + protection. No fire detection or protection on main deck. The other problem, there is cargo classification, as far as dangerous goods. Some "cargo" is acceptable on cargo aircraft only. These combi are classified as passenger aircraft, precluding transportation of some items as it would be in regular cargo panes...
A combi airplane is not a good airplane when operated it passenger only configuration, it is nearly 7,000 kg heavier = higher fuel burn... I agree as to operating combis in 6 or 12 pallets configurations... but the FAA his very nervous about it.
When with PanAm, I flew 707s and 727s in combi configurations... one thing, the cargo was forward of passenger area... we had 727Cs and 707Cs with a cabin half cargo, and half passengers. In the DC-10 combi, cargo is forward as well. But the FAA does not like cargo in the rear... passengers forward, as it is in the 747s... The first people to operate 747 combis were Sabena, with their two 747-129s converted with a SCD. It was their design, actually.
Happy contrails -
Ltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13765 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4907 times:
I recall being on a 747 Combi on an Iberia flight Madrid-JFK in Dec. 1985. Recall sat in very front/nose area of a/c, in a coach seat.
Probably today in the US, major limits on Combis because cannot be absolutly sure of what in cargo in/out, including products that if shifted into each other would cause problems. Also since 9/11, fear that a cargo item could contain terror bombs, chemicals.
GARUDAROD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1558 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4827 times:
I have news for you. GARUDA operated the other plane in combi mode for
3yrs on the CGK/DPS/BIK/HNL/LAX route. I used to be the Cargo manager for them at that point and loaded that plane all the time.
Yes KLM does operate the Combi aircraft in Combi mode. They operate
daily to IAH and ORD with that aircraft. Cargo is very much a part of their
operational plan for the US.
KLM had two configurations for the Cargo on the Main Deck, a 7 Pallet
version or a 13Pallet version.
DABZF From Germany, joined Mar 2004, 1204 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4181 times:
All LH combis -200's and -400's (can't remember the exact amount) were changed to full pax when Lufthansa Cargo got their first 4 MD11F's in 1998 or 1999. Because of the new rules wall between pax and cargo needed to be rebuilt more fire resistant LH decided to skip the combis!
Now LH has only -400's but some of them have the "old" SCD on them!
If I remember correctly LH combis were 7 pallet position versions.
LH is not flying any combis today... LH Cargo rely on belly capasity and their freighter fleet!
I like driving backwards in the fog cause it doesn't remind me of anything - Chris Cornell