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KLM Takeover By Air France  
User currently offlineTokolosh From Netherlands, joined Sep 2001, 366 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 3 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7904 times:

From the AT5 site, 02/04/04 (Amsterdam local television site). Rough translation:

"Air France to bid for KLM on Monday

On Monday Air France will make a takeover bid for KLM. This was announced by both companies on Friday (2nd April). Earlier this week it became clear details of the takeover would be announced later than planned. Initially Air France intended making the bid at the end of March, but this was postponed twice.
The bid for KLM shares open on April 5th and will run till May 3rd. KLM shares will be replaced with Air-France-KLM shares. The takeover is worth about 785 million euro."


I wish this was an April Fool's joke. Although this has been coming for quite some time, it is still somehow hard to believe it's actually happening. And, is it just me, but does 785 million euro sound like very little money for taking over KLM?!


Did the chicken or the egg get laid first?
94 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 7765 times:

I guess that they only need the majority of the shares in KLM?
Personally I hope it means that KLM will run an A380 on the Amsterdam-Paramaribo route, since AF has bought a handful of these.


User currently offlineAirplanePeanut From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 452 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 7739 times:

Thats so sad..Ive Never Flown KLM but they dont need their new T7 to get dirty. Insane


Bobby



..
User currently offlineSNBA319 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2003, 298 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 7739 times:

Personally I hope it means that KLM will run an A380 on the Amsterdam-Paramaribo route, since AF has bought a handful of these

what a funny thing to hear from a swede  Laugh out loud . I think many dutch citizens would agree with you though, same for the route to the dutch antilles!


User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 4, posted (10 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 7685 times:

In the not-too distant future KLM won't fly anything at all. The common fate of all airlines Air France takes over is a rapid decline into bankruptcy due to all income being pulled to Paris but all expidentures having to be paid local.


I wish I were flying
User currently offlineReguPilot From Puerto Rico, joined Jan 2004, 493 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (10 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 7661 times:

Although I am not from around, I think that will be the worst thing ever to happen to Holland and the aviation industry in Europe. I may be writing nonsense, but KLM is some what, a heritage already.... and.... well... I just don't know what to say, but only that..... It's sad.

I just wanted to comment, and let you know my condolenses in advance (in case it happens)
Cheers!

Ragu


User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (10 years 3 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7523 times:

That's correct Jwenting, AMS will be a regional airport within a few months  Nuts

The only B777's and B747's that will visit AMS in the future will be those of AF to transport connecting pax between AMS and CDG  Nuts  Insane


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7485 times:

I was in Suriname in feb&mars and the KLM B744 was crammed both ways,
no other carrier operate Europe to Suriname, so it´s a cash-cow for KLM.
Jwenting, surely the Par´bo-Amsterdam route is attractive, I don´t know
about Curacao or other typical Dutch oversea routes?
On some lines it definitly means less competition, also good for the A380
and B744?





User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7475 times:

Re: The only B777's and B747's that will visit AMS in the future will be those of AF to transport connecting pax between AMS and CDG

That won't be necessary - there's a perfectly good high speed train.

Re: The common fate of all airlines Air France takes over is a rapid decline into bankruptcy

Name one...

Jwenting, your distress at this takeover borders on the hysterical, it would seem. I am no fan of AF, believe me, but in Europe we are going to have to get over this nationalistic obsession with all having a national carrier of our own. It can't be sustained, and The Netherlands, being in itself quite a small market compared to some other countries in the EU, was sadly a pretty obvious candidate for having its large and successful national carrier merge with a larger outfit. It is further likely that only those airlines in markets that are so small that they generate no interest, will even be around in 10 years time. IB and AY and maybe EI may go to BA, OS will probably go to LH, only SN, TP and LG will be left to sink into niche carrier status.


User currently offlinePhollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (10 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7385 times:

I don't know why your are all acting so surprised, this is only the next step in what was announced last year and approved by US and EU authorities back at the beginning of this year. You may not like it, but you can't say this is truly news. Since the EU government doesn't like the national governments to pull out all of the stops to keep their airlines afloat this consolidation is bound to happen.

As for the KLM brand, it won't disappear as fast a some people would like you to think, only because the perceptions of consumers will resist it. Though it may be gone within a decade. You can argue which brand is truly stronger, but I don't think anyone here can make a definitive case (personal preferences not withstanding).

As for the future of AMS. They cannot move the passenger loads of AMS to CDG directly, the landside and airside capacity don't exist, yet. What you are more likely to see is a realignment of passengers and flights to maximize the utility of both airports. Considering the population densities in that part of Europe, a good business case can be made for maintaining two hubs. DL maintains both ATL (super-hub) and CVG (land of the RJ) and they are only about 100 mi farther apart than CDG-AMS. Further the pop densities are lower here in the States.


User currently offlineTokolosh From Netherlands, joined Sep 2001, 366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7179 times:

Today on the AT5 local Amsterdam television site (www.at5.nl). Rough translation:

"French get 50% of KLM for free"

Air France will get about half of KLM partner for nothing. This was announced by the Stock Exchange Association (VEB). The VEB estimates that the Air France bid is just over half of KLM's capital value. The Air France offer is, according to the VEB, 17,80 euro per share while the KLM's value is 34,14 euro per share. "Air France thus gets half of KLM for free".




Did the chicken or the egg get laid first?
User currently offlineTripple7 From Netherlands, joined Aug 1999, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7129 times:

The full stoy can be found here (only in Dutch):
http://www.veb.net/beleggen/artikel.php?newsnr=405&SID=df74ef4b4d6197687718d25d32b1c9b9


User currently offlineKl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7047 times:

Is there really nothing that can avoid one of Europe's best Carriers being taken over by the dirtiest, unefficient, worst service airline?????
And for only 50% of the normal price? Sounds like French politicians have been threathening again......



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1583 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6879 times:

dear dutch neighbors

on one side your country is the best in Europe for everything (so you believe) and on the other side the dirty cunning Frenchies are taking over your wonderwapen for free without your prim-and-proper politicians objecting.....this is becoming ridiculous

what are you going to say? France paid billions to your guys???
you know what? France doesn't have these billions nowadays they just have efficient groups taking over less efficient groups anywhere in the world.
for your info, and whether you like it or not, Konmar, KLM, Orange,Wanadoo and many others are French.
Again, it's not because you're disappointed that you have to sound like "de telegraaf" articles



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlineAF330 From France, joined Mar 2004, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6845 times:

From my username you might be able to tell that I am an AF fan.

I understand how you feel about KLM but please don't take this anger into wrong statements about the French carrier. AF Planes are not the cleanest, I agree, but the standards of on board service is very high. Let me rephrase this, in a market where airlines are lowering there services to LCC standards, AF is still managing to keep a good onboard service.

Let us not think nationally but look at the fact that we are in the EU, AF + KLM is a very strong brand for all of us.

cheers

Alex



faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineSimongkhon From Sweden, joined Oct 2003, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6794 times:

Have to agree with Alex. Though I'm not a regular on AF, the flights I've made have been nothing but enjoyable, both domestic Europe and longhaul. As for the cleanliness of the a/c, most north-European planes look like sh*t during the winter season and most of you good ppl here know why. This becomes more than obvious on a/c:s painted all white.

H


User currently offlineCol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2093 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6785 times:

Maybe KLM/AMS can explain to AF/CDG how an airport should be designed and run. CDG is a real mess, take a clean piece of paper and open land, design something that is a sweet looking building, then put planes and passengers in it. NON, it was not designed to be an airport, just looks pretty.
Pretty useless and pretty apt to stay that way.


User currently offlineSimongkhon From Sweden, joined Oct 2003, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6730 times:

Col, your not referring to CDG as being sweet I hope. The place is nothing but an architectonic disaster (unless you're madly in love with concrete, that is).

H


User currently offlineSimongkhon From Sweden, joined Oct 2003, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6685 times:

Ooops. Kinda lost the thread here I think. Sorry for that. What I really wanted to say, was that I really hope this merger doesn't turns Schiphol into what ARN has become. A local commuter a/p, feeding pax on 320:s to the European hubs. It would be a real pity as AMS is one of few airports I actually enjoy visiting.

H


User currently offlineCol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2093 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6678 times:

In French eyes after having lunch and many bottles of St Emillion. I hate the place, have to go every four years for exhibition. How can you screw something up so badly, if Aeroports De Paris made Submarines, the sky would be full of them!!

User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1583 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6647 times:

Col
I am sorry but if you want to be precise in what you say please specify what terminal you're talking about (answer ALL = not relevant)

CDG 1 is out of a twisted 60s mind and should be a museum like TWA terminal at JFK
CDG 2 E + F which are used by AF are out of the same twisted mind but are more than acceptable and much nicer than Schiphol



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlineSimongkhon From Sweden, joined Oct 2003, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6615 times:

Why wouldn't ALL be a relevant answer? If the guy dislikes ALL of the a/p. As I do myself btw.

User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1583 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6580 times:

answer ALL if you're pleased to do so
but in that case explain why 2F/E are not good airports...I worked 5 years in a bad airport (CDG1) and I don't see why 2E/F should be horrible terminals especially compared with schiphol since it's the theme



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlineCol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2093 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6552 times:

Varig md-11

Terminals I am talking about are both CDG1 and CDG2, just a pleasure using both. E and F are a little better, but not always the ones used. Best French airport I have used is Limoges.

I will stick to using MAN/AMS as my European preference, MAN was superb last week after using LHR last time. Got to go through FRA next week, will see how German efficiency compares.


User currently offlineSimongkhon From Sweden, joined Oct 2003, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6516 times:

Varig md-11

OK. Personal opinions is something not to be discussed. Has been proven before and will be again. Anyway, I just don't like the place. I think it's just a set of big ugly looking buildings, tasteless interiors. And to add, I have never been particularly impressed with the staff working the place (I'm sure they are all very good people privately). The experiences I have with CDG is all in all not good.

Over and out

H


25 Varig md-11 : thanks for your explanation and comments now back to the original question: why AMS should teach CDG to be a good airport? -bags not lost during trans
26 Post contains images Aviopic : It seems that nobody really wants to say what is really bothering. As I see it the simple fact is that we don't like the French as probably they don't
27 Post contains images Tripple7 : "now back to the original question: why AMS should teach CDG to be a good airport?" ehhm, the original discussion is about the KLM takeover by AF In m
28 747srule : I am sad to hear this. KLM has such a sharp livery. I will miss it.
29 747SPA330MD11 : What will happen to my collected flightmiles I have on both, KLM Flying dutchman and Korean Air (Sky Team !!) when the airlines will merged. Will they
30 Tokolosh : I think, as mentioned somewhere above, we should not look at this issue from a nationalistic perspective. After all, most major airlines have alliance
31 Tripple7 : It is really strange KLM is sold so cheap to AF. One of the reasons might be that KLM top management sold KLM so cheap might be purely of interest of
32 Ams : Shame on YOU KLM management.
33 Aviopic : I wasn't trying to be nationalistic at all as I am not bothered by those kind of feelings. The reason AF bought KLM for a bargain is simple, they are
34 Aviationfreak : What a disgrace to give away such a proud carrier like that. As I see it the simple fact is that we don't like the French as probably they don't like
35 Tripple7 : isn't it a bit short-sighted that some are putting up arguments they don't like French people. Probably they don't even know any French person and are
36 Sebolino : The common fate of all airlines Air France takes over is a rapid decline into bankruptcy due to all income being pulled to Paris but all expidentures
37 Post contains images Varig md-11 : thank you for all the dutch stereotyped comments, that helps a lot. Aviopic: I think you sum up the situation pretty well....and by the way, the Frenc
38 Post contains images Aviopic : Don't what you are up to Varig but I never used the word "hate" !!!! I don't hate nobody and I never will as it is a waste of time and leads to nowher
39 Kl911 : '''I do think there will be cultural problems between AF and KLM that are going to cause problems. The business attitude in Holland is very different
40 Scorpio : Correction : France has NO Business attitude at all...... Shit man, you're more and more starting to sound like Jwenting. And that's not a compliment.
41 Kl911 : Scorpio, I'm actually living and working in France............just my experience.....
42 Post contains images Mriya : KLM is my favorite airline. I'm flying with them on the trip I'm currently on. The Dutch clearly had a great deal of pride in their main airline as t
43 LJ : I guess it is because the Dutch and British cultures are quite similar that Anglo-Dutch firms do work. Tripple7, unfortunately you guessed wrong. I wo
44 Post contains images Aviationfreak : Don't be to hard on the so called Dutch stereo type comments. Our proud and Dutch aviation heart was already teared apart by the bankruptcy of Fokker.
45 LJ : IMHO KLM should have merged with a more equal partner anyway. The risk to be 'eaten' by the bigger one is significantly less then. That's the problem,
46 Wietse : Varig, What the hell is it with you and the Netherlands? If you are so full of hatred towards our way of life, at least have the decency to change you
47 Post contains images Aviopic : Well spoken Wietse and Aviationfreak, it's always nice to get some support.
48 Varig md-11 : I will not change my flag because I live here and I perfectly know the way YOU function also please note that I react to constant aggressions and rude
49 Wietse : And note that I react to constant aggressions and rude typical remarks and cliches on Holland and the Dutch. It is getting boring reading your crap on
50 Dutchflyer : KLM was sold at a bargain to AF. It is not a pity, it is a big shame on the Dutch government and KLM management (who will get a large bonus the mf's).
51 Varig md-11 : Wiestse: just read what your fellow countrymen write before accusing ME Dutchflyer is sour because of Fokker and WW2!!!!!!!!! this is 2004 you know. n
52 Wietse : True, I give you that.... his comments about WW2 are not correct and I really can not see how the french were wrong there... Wietse
53 Kl911 : O no? An area about a third of France was cooperating with the Germans.. ( Vichy ) That's what I call wrong. They had some resistance fighters, but th
54 Wietse : And what the hell is wrong with communists?? Just because people think differently from you doesnt mean they are any less than you are! W
55 Kl911 : Hmmmmm, let me think whats wrong with communisme Wietse.. They are responsible for about 50 million deaths, no liberty, no freedom, no democraty etc e
56 Wietse : whoa there... Stalin and his regime were responsible for abusing and changing the pure communistic ideas into something killing millions of citizens.
57 Post contains images Varig md-11 : thank you Wietse I don't understand either I have nothing against NL, but I have everything against clichés. I know you're very proud about KL and I
58 Scorpio : Jesus Christ. Now someone brought World War 2 and the friggin' COMMUNISTS into it! Just when we thought the level of the discussion couldn't possibly
59 Wietse : Got a problem scorpio? Suggest deletion, otherwise get a dose of what you suggest us to take as well. I dont see how I am destroying a discussion. The
60 Scorpio : Hey Wietse, take a chill pill. Last time I checked you weren't the one who started bitching about WW2 and commies in France in a discussion about an A
61 LJ : I think it's about time to suggest deletion for this thread as it has gone off topic. However before I do it I want to say that none of the contribute
62 Wietse : Check my edit in reply 60. peace
63 Post contains images Scorpio : No problem, Wietse. They're easy to get caught up in, these futile discussions. It's not like it's never happened to me
64 Rikkus67 : Reading all of this..it makes me wonder...who would buy out my poor poor grossly mismanaged national airline: Air Canada. In a world that is shrinking
65 Post contains images Aviopic : KLM Is safe ? I don't believe in faery tales LJ, do you ? If you had followed the news you would have known that KLM is gone in 5 years time, at least
66 Sabena 690 : @Aviopic: LJ is a very valuable source for information on this board, so I would watch out. I think he knows more than the average aviation enthusiast
67 Aviopic : It was nothing personal Sabena 690. LJ is Dutch so I am sure he will understand our way of having fun.
68 Post contains links Buckfifty : http://news.airwise.com/stories/2004/04/1081985245.html
69 Tripple7 : I already mentioned it in reply 27. Couldn't find an english source though. So thanks. I continue to find it suspect that KLM management receives thes
70 Buckfifty : There is a chance that they will refuse the deal, especially considering that KLM is going to make a profit this year. The unions will probably take t
71 Fsuwxman : Glad to see a EU vs. EU thread for one instead of all vs the US...
72 WingnutMN : I have 2 questions about the merger. 1. What will happen with the KLM/NW alliance......will it survive, or is that the reason NW was invited into Skyt
73 Tripple7 : 1. The KLM/NW alliance will continue to exist. Both are going to join the Skyteam alliance soon. 2. The AF bid was not considered as hostile.
74 Lj : KLM Is safe ? I don't believe in faery tales LJ, do you ? If you had followed the news you would have known that KLM is gone in 5 years time, at least
75 Post contains images Aviopic : See Sabena 650, LJ knows how to respond and is not getting pissed of because we have a different view on this matter. Guess we don't have the French t
76 LJ : In the end no matter who the owner is or what name the brand will have you still need those people to do the job and guess what........ Sometimes thos
77 Tolosy : KL911 You are totally out of context, what is the link between Vichy, the Communists and the merger... AF managers are real capitalists, trust me... I
78 Post contains images AOMlover : Well you have to realize thta if the KLM brand disappear, the AF brand will disappear too because it's just NOT possible to put aircraft with French f
79 Jwenting : AOM, AF doesn't plan to pull the Dutch operations under a French flag. They plan to TERMINATE those operations completely without replacing them. The
80 Scorpio : They plan to TERMINATE those operations completely without replacing them. OH WILL YOU SHUT UP ALREADY!!!! A simple answer: NO THEY DON'T. Now quit yo
81 Wietse : being naive is bliss compared to being paranoid W
82 DIJKKIJK : "If you had followed the news you would have known that KLM is gone in 5 years time, at least the Name and color are. " So does that mean that The Net
83 Timdegroot : Jwenting: may I ask where you get your info from? I think you are talking out of your a$$, as usual. What did the french ever do to you to make you so
84 Jwenting : Transavia is part of the deal, so they're dead too. Leaves Dutchbird, VBird and Corendon (if they're still around in a few years). The info was in ope
85 Post contains images Aviopic : Fact is that KLM wanted there name to live on for another 8 years guaranteed which was denied by AF, instead a 5 year agreement is made. This has been
86 LJ : Transavia is part of the deal, so they're dead too. Leaves Dutchbird, VBird and Corendon (if they're still around in a few years). First Corendon does
87 Kl911 : I think Transavia will not make it without KLM. They will have to invest so much at the same time to make up for support that KLM used to offer..
88 Syncmaster : I might be wrong, but I thought I remembered seeing somewhere that a holding company was to be created and the airlines were going to be both owned by
89 Jwenting : Corendon operates its own aircraft now under a Dutch license, thank you very much. They may be wetleased (I don't know) for now but they have their ow
90 Post contains links DIJKKIJK : When did all this talk about the KLM brand name dying start off and who started it? According to the first reports, both KLM and Air France were to ke
91 Bobnwa : DIJKKIJK, What ever happened to your claim that KLM had taken over NWA? What are your sources for your information?
92 DIJKKIJK : It was a mistake. I mistook the alliance to be a takeover. So do you have an answer to my question , bobnwa ? Can you provide me with a link that actu
93 Kl911 : DIJKKIJK , Just 2 points : 1) AF refused that KLM could keep the name and colours for 8 years. Instead they wanted maximum 5 years..... And they got j
94 LJ : Corendon operates its own aircraft now under a Dutch license, thank you very much.They may be wetleased (I don't know) for now but they have their own
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